Double decker trains

[Emblematic]

Has it ever been calculated how much it would cost and what would be involved to convert some section of the network to a full continental loading gauge?

I know loading gauges have been increased for larger freight containers, so the methodology must exist.

I'm just wondering if anyone has run the figures/done the relevant design costings for it.

Well, double deck trains are covered to some extent in the Wessex route study, http://www.networkrail.co.uk/long-term-planning-process/wessex-route-study/. No details of costings, other than initial studies 'indicate poor value for money.' I'm sure no-one is shocked by that. :roll:
It does make you wonder how much time they spent (or wasted, if you prefer) looking at the option.

 

[jopsuk]

Has it ever been calculated how much it would cost and what would be involved to convert some section of the network to a full continental loading gauge?

I know loading gauges have been increased for larger freight containers, so the methodology must exist.

I'm just wondering if anyone has run the figures/done the relevant design costings for it.

One of the big problems is that there would be even more accessibility problems, even with the "high platform" version of continental standards, for existing stock. And the continental (I'd go with GC+, giving more space than on eg most French double deck lines) stock would be captive.

Ideally you'd convert a whole line in one go. Spend a couple of years doing structure works (tunnels will be a massive pain). Convert platforms but then add a temporary structure bringing them back to current GB standard- this was done at Stratford International for the Olympics on the International platforms to allow them to be used by Javelins. Build a whole new train fleet. Get it tested and fully run in, and send drivers (and guards, preferably) on a "holiday" to train up. Build new depots on new sites and have the new stock delivered there (by road).

Then, in a single blockade, remove all the platform extensions and introduce the entire new fleet in one go. Good luck!

Now, the big problem is interoperability. On our network lines are not that separate. Even C2C run service into Liverpool Street via Stratford. If you had a plan to do the whole country in stages you could consider "interface" stations with platforms at both positions. "classic" stock could run through "new" platforms obviously- so you could say do all the London commuter lines first and retain "intercity" platforms at the terminals.

 

[66Yorks]

Would a double-decker train not interfere with the OLE structure that is currently in use?

 

[AM9]

Would a double-decker train not interfere with the OLE structure that is currently in use?

Not really. Even current UK stock could reach the contact wire at heights up to 5.6m (just under 18ft 5in) so a GB+ route wouldn't be an issue. Remember that standard class 319 sets (319008 & 319009) once went along HS2 and right through the Channel Tunnel. ISTR they only needed to have the max height sensors adjusted, (if I am wrong, no doubt somebody here will correct me). The tunnel of course has the contact wire set high enough for the double deck Shuttle car carriers and loaded trucks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Has it ever been calculated how much it would cost and what would be involved to convert some section of the network to a full continental loading gauge?

I know loading gauges have been increased for larger freight containers, so the methodology must exist.

I'm just wondering if anyone has run the figures/done the relevant design costings for it.

European freight gauges are agreed and (relatively) easy to achieve on selected UK routes. The reason why clearance for a GB+ passenger vehicles would be very poor value for money is with the area below floor level. The UK loading gauge provides very little width beyond running gear, i.e. bogies, axle boxes and where needed, pick-up shoes.
The UK standards for platform edges impinge on what would be needed for any lower deck capacity gain, and more importantly, there are hundreds of trussed overbridges where the trusses located between the tracks also use this space. They are prevalent accross much of south London where enhanced capacity is most needed. Fixing them would involve replacement of all of those bridges, many of which span busy inner city roads.
All this would give a marginal increase on route capacity over current high frequency operation.

 

[LeeLivery]

How much longer are the dwell times? Looking at the timetables, Sydney have trains 3 mins behind each other at the peaks on the North Shore, Northern & Western between Chatswood, Central and Strathfield - A corridor probably could be compared to Waterloo - Surbiton or Liverpool St - Shenfield in terms of high passengers. So would dwell times really distort our timetables that much?

The best double deck trains in a commuter network are probably there, having a different style and squeezing a double deck into 9ft instead of 14ft seem like its asking for problems.

 

[AM9]

How much longer are the dwell times? Looking at the timetables, Sydney have trains 3 mins behind each other at the peaks on the North Shore, Northern & Western between Chatswood, Central and Strathfield - A corridor probably could be compared to Waterloo - Surbiton or Liverpool St - Shenfield in terms of high passengers. So would dwell times really distort our timetables that much?

The best double deck trains in a commuter network are probably there, having a different style and squeezing a double deck into 9ft instead of 14ft seem like its asking for problems.

It's interesting to note that the busiest commuter routes in India are still operated with conventional stock. They have the benefit of a wide and high loading gauge but find the rapid ingress and egress gives dwells that allow greater route capacity.
If the DfT mandated sufficient capacity as a must deliver condition, there would eventually be line infrastructure improvements to achieve high frequency full length services to deliver that capacity.

 

[najaB]

How much longer are the dwell times? Looking at the timetables, Sydney have trains 3 mins behind each other at the peaks on the North Shore, Northern & Western between Chatswood, Central and Strathfield - A corridor probably could be compared to Waterloo - Surbiton or Liverpool St - Shenfield in terms of high passengers. So would dwell times really distort our timetables that much?

Shenfield-Liverpool street is mostly timetabled for thirty second/one minute stops, so I'd guess that three minutes would mess up the timetable.

 

[furnessvale]

It's interesting to note that the busiest commuter routes in India are still operated with conventional stock. They have the benefit of a wide and high loading gauge but find the rapid ingress and egress gives dwells that allow greater route capacity.

Indian railways DO operate double deck coaches. It's just that the upper deck has less facilities, like seats, sides and a roof, than we in the UK are used to!

 

[swt_passenger]

I know loading gauges have been increased for larger freight containers, so the methodology must exist.

Increasing gauge for higher containers is fairly trivial compared to providing 'continental clearances'.

For a start, there's no overall width increase required, and there's only a few cm of height required, because the real requirement is to clear the corners of the containers. UK W10 gauges is really no higher than existing locos. W12 is the same and about 5 cm wider.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The same story is in the Telegraph and the Daily Mail.

In the Telegraph there's an artist's impression of a London-Birmingham service. This has the platform at the same level as the vestibule and shows a set of stairs to an upper deck. It looks a Continental sized carriage, as do most of the illustrations. Does quoting it as London - Birmingham suggests someone thinking about HS2, which could no doubt be built suitable for double deck trains?

 

[najaB]

Does quoting it as London - Birmingham suggests someone thinking about HS2, which could no doubt be built suitable for double deck trains?

It will be suitable by virtue of being built to GC gauge.

 

[DarloRich]

I am sorry but double deck trains are not going to happen on the normal rail network in this country. The costs of infrastructure clearance and changes would be prohibitive before you consider the impact on the timetable - just forget it

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It will be suitable by virtue of being built to GC gauge.

AIUI the plan for HS2 is that it will be capable of handling TGV Duplex or equivalent but the powers that be anticipate that the initial build of captive stock will be single-deck. Given the problems of building 400m platforms in cramped city centres I'd have thought 200m double-decker stock would be a more sensible plan. 400m trains are the European standard for high-speed rail, but given that there's very little chance of international services running regularly beyond London is there much need for such provision? Sure, it would mean that we couldn't necessarily go for an "off-the-shelf" design but a shorter set is less of an issue for manufacturers than a design compatible with our classic network- something which is needed for some routes anyway. In any case AIUI most designs for high-speed stock are 200m sets anyway, with the 400m formations formed by running 2 sets coupled.

 

[AM9]

AIUI the plan for HS2 is that it will be capable of handling TGV Duplex or equivalent but the powers that be anticipate that the initial build of captive stock will be single-deck. Given the problems of building 400m platforms in cramped city centres I'd have thought 200m double-decker stock would be a more sensible plan. ....

Because a 200m Duplex doesn't have anywhere near the capacity of a 400m single floor train, is slower to board/alight, has accessibility issues and would have a lot of circulation issues when passengers are carrying refreshments etc..

 

[swt_passenger]

Given the problems of building 400m platforms in cramped city centres...

Where does that apply on the planned captive route?

 

[jopsuk]

I'd love to see the passenger stock you could have if you had a line with Channel Tunnel loading gauge. Spacious double deck with all equipment under the floor. Level boarding on a flat lower deck. Plenty of space for, well, everything. Would make the Amtrak transcontinental double deckers look a bit small, especially with the ability to have a full width gangway on both decks. Does anyone have dimensions for the Tunnel car carrying stock, as I've never tracked it down?

Generally double deck seems to find most use on longer distance commuter and intercity services, where dwell time and high frequency isn't considered an important factor

 

[furnessvale]

I'd love to see the passenger stock you could have if you had a line with Channel Tunnel loading gauge. Spacious double deck with all equipment under the floor. Level boarding on a flat lower deck. Plenty of space for, well, everything. Would make the Amtrak transcontinental double deckers look a bit small, especially with the ability to have a full width gangway on both decks. Does anyone have dimensions for the Tunnel car carrying stock, as I've never tracked it down?

Generally double deck seems to find most use on longer distance commuter and intercity services, where dwell time and high frequency isn't considered an important factor

While we are dreaming we may as well add double deck platforms for level loading to both decks of the train.

First class upstairs, steerage down below!

 

[NSEFAN]

Double deck platforms may help with the dwell time issues!

 

[RobShipway]

If we are dreaming then I would go for something like the Swiss double desk trains such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBB-CFF-FFS_RABe_514, although the Euroliner 3000 such as in the Telegraph feature http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...s-are-designed-to-help-ease-overcrowding.html look quite good as well.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Here we go again ....

Looked at before in some detail on proffessional groups within the industry - but every time some rookly politician goes abroad , they come back with stars in their eyes.

Apart from the obvious ex GWR lines - we looked at the LT+S system - which being self contained and has no option of new paths into Fenchurch Street might have been a contender.....

 

[AngusH]

I believe this document may be related to the research previously mentioned:

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....railwhitepapersupportingdocs/provevalddtrains


It obviously supports what has previously been said.

 

[superkev]

I've often wondered if the extra capacity put forward as the main reason for hs2 could be obtained cheaper by opening out the existing to continental gauge for DD stock.
Perhaps the eu could be persuaded to pay towards opening up large parts of the UK network to fit eu standard size trains.
I

 

[najaB]

I've often wondered if the extra capacity put forward as the main reason for hs2 could be obtained cheaper by opening out the existing to continental gauge for DD stock.

Could it be obtained? Yes. Would it be cheaper? Doubtful. Would it take longer? Almost certainly. Would the public put up with a decade or more of disruption? Definitely not.

 

[D365]

I've often wondered if the extra capacity put forward as the main reason for hs2 could be obtained cheaper by opening out the existing to continental gauge for DD stock.
Perhaps the eu could be persuaded to pay towards opening up large parts of the UK network to fit eu standard size trains.
I

You honestly think that regauging existing (and very intensively used) Victorian-built railways can be cheaper than building from scratch?

Good luck with that argument.

 

[sprinterguy]

Does anyone have dimensions for the Tunnel car carrying stock, as I've never tracked it down?

The Eurotunnel vehicle carrier wagons are 4.1 metres wide and the tallest, the HGV carriers, are 5.595 metres high (the car carriers are just barely smaller at 5.575m high).

 

[RobShipway]

I'd love to see the passenger stock you could have if you had a line with Channel Tunnel loading gauge. Spacious double deck with all equipment under the floor. Level boarding on a flat lower deck. Plenty of space for, well, everything. Would make the Amtrak transcontinental double deckers look a bit small, especially with the ability to have a full width gangway on both decks. Does anyone have dimensions for the Tunnel car carrying stock, as I've never tracked it down?

Generally double deck seems to find most use on longer distance commuter and intercity services, where dwell time and high frequency isn't considered an important factor

Could it be obtained? Yes. Would it be cheaper? Doubtful. Would it take longer? Almost certainly. Would the public put up with a decade or more of disruption? Definitely not.

But by the time that HS2 is built and completed from London to Scotland at the rate things are built in this country, the people of this country will have had to wait at least 2 decades.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I'd love to see the passenger stock you could have if you had a line with Channel Tunnel loading gauge. Spacious double deck with all equipment under the floor. Level boarding on a flat lower deck. Plenty of space for, well, everything. Would make the Amtrak transcontinental double deckers look a bit small, especially with the ability to have a full width gangway on both decks. Does anyone have dimensions for the Tunnel car carrying stock, as I've never tracked it down?

Here you go: Le Shuttle Double Deck Carrier Wagon

Weight 62 tonnes, Lenth 26 m. Width 4.1m. Height 5.575m.

Double Deck Loader Wagon

Weight 64 tonnes, Lenth 27.5m. Width 4.1 Height 5.575m.

Light HGV Carrier Wagon

Lenth 20.505m Width 4.1m Height 5.595m

Edit: just noticed sprinterguy beat me to it.

 

[D365]

But by the time that HS2 is built and completed from London to Scotland at the rate things are built in this country, the people of this country will have had to wait at least 2 decades.

:roll::roll::roll:

 

[swt_passenger]

:roll::roll::roll:

Usually by this stage of one of the regular Double Decker train discussions someone proposes (from the railway myth catalogue) that 'continental stock' could have run up the GC anyway, and they should have solved all our capacity problems by just re-opening it.

But I shouldn't really add that fuel to the fire..

Thanks BTW to AngusH a few posts back for posting a link to the archived DfT double decker trains report. I've done it myself in the past but I don't think anyone ever reads it right through...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Where does that apply on the planned captive route?

Leeds for one... Not to mention Euston... Come to think of it, in terms of land-take 200-250m platforms would be more practical everywhere given that international services are probably less likely now even than they were a week ago, given the tragic events in Paris.

Of course that ship (design of the terminal stations) has largely sailed now though.