Double Headed Peaks On The MML

[RichmondCommu]

G'day everyone,

I have a picture that shows two Peaks double heading a London bound train from Derby in the early 1980's. The picture was taken by myself and would have been a very early service to London starting at Derby. From memory it would have been a 06.00 departure or something along those lines.

I can only think of two explanations. Either one of the Peaks was required for a working back from St Pancras which assumes that loco's were no longer being maintained at Cricklewood. Or that the leading Peak was on test from Derby Loco Works and was running as far as Leicester where it would have been detached.

Any thoughts / explanations would be very welcome.

Kind regards,

Richmond Commuter!

 

[70014IronDuke]

G'day everyone,

I have a picture that shows a two Peaks double heading a London bound train from Derby in the early 1980's. The picture was taken by myself and would have been a very early service to London starting at Derby. From memory it would have been a 06.00 departure or something along those lines.

I can only think of two explanations. Either one of the Peaks was required for a working back from St Pancras which assumes that loco's were no longer being maintained at Cricklewood. Or that the leading Peak was on test from Derby Loco Works and was running as far as Leicester where it would have been detached.

Any thoughts / explanations would be very welcome.

Kind regards,


Richmond Commuter!

AIRI, Cricklewood did not really 'maintain' any locos even in the early 1970s. I think they did A exams, but that mean only limited checks, brake block changes, stuff like that, nothing heavy. If your photo was post autumn 1982, all the Sheffield fasts went to HST. Maybe the semi-fasts were still 45s still for a few years - I wasn't following it much in those years.

but yes, they may have needed an extra loco at the London end if there had been a failure.

Otherwise, on test - yes, possibly. Is the loco sporting a repaint? Not that all locos ex-works were repainted, of course.

regs

 

[RichmondCommu]

AIRI, Cricklewood did not really 'maintain' any locos even in the early 1970s. I think they did A exams, but that mean only limited checks, brake block changes, stuff like that, nothing heavy. If your photo was post autumn 1982, all the Sheffield fasts went to HST. Maybe the semi-fasts were still 45s still for a few years - I wasn't following it much in those years.

but yes, they may have needed an extra loco at the London end if there had been a failure.

Otherwise, on test - yes, possibly. Is the loco sporting a repaint? Not that all locos ex-works were repainted, of course.

regs

Many thanks for your post. Both loco's don't appear be ex-works but as you say that doesn't mean to say that the leading loco had not visited the Loco Works.

Many thanks for the date when the HST's were introduced. I can certainly remember loco hauled Friday evening reliefs in the mid 1980's with some tatty mk1 stock.

 

[Mugby]

Many thanks for the date when the HST's were introduced. I can certainly remember loco hauled Friday evening reliefs in the mid 1980's with some tatty mk1 stock.

It's only a distant memory now but I can remember (and travelled on) the semi-fasts in the early 1980s. Some of the mk1 stock was a bit tatty towards the end but weren't they wonderful. Loco hauled trains travelling at 90 mph on jointed track under semaphore signals.
Absolute heaven!

 

[Ash Bridge]

It's only a distant memory now but I can remember (and travelled on) the semi-fasts in the early 1980s. Some of the mk1 stock was a bit tatty towards the end but weren't they wonderful. Loco hauled trains travelling at 90 mph on jointed track under semaphore signals.
Absolute heaven!

Were they generally compartments or opens?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Were they generally compartments or opens?

If you were in 1st class it was compartments. I'd moved to London after Uni and was earning a good wage so would sometimes travel up to see my family on a Friday night in 1st class.

The last stop before Derby was Long Eaton and I doubt that a class 45 was able to wind itself up to 90 mph before it was time to brake for Derby. Memories!

One night I shared a compartment with a young family. I can remember their little girl slapping her hand on a seat and dust flying everywhere! As Mugby says at the time mechanical signalling still existed between north of Bedford and Loughborough which made such journeys even more interesting.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It's only a distant memory now but I can remember (and travelled on) the semi-fasts in the early 1980s. Some of the mk1 stock was a bit tatty towards the end but weren't they wonderful. Loco hauled trains travelling at 90 mph on jointed track under semaphore signals.
Absolute heaven!

Absolutely! Wellingborough MPD was still open, Finedon Road sidings were still active, all the 'slow' lines were still in existence and stone was being loaded in Loughborough goods yard! And from memory the British Leyland foundry was still in existence at Wellingborough. Memories!

 

[Ash Bridge]

If you were in 1st class it was compartments. I'd moved to London after Uni and was earning a good wage so would sometimes travel up to see my family on a Friday night in 1st class.

The last stop before Derby was Long Eaton and I doubt that a class 45 was able to wind itself up to 90 mph before it was time to brake for Derby. Memories!

One night I shared a compartment with a young family. I can remember their little girl slapping her hand on a seat and dust flying everywhere! As Mugby says at the time mechanical signalling still existed between north of Bedford and Loughborough which made such journeys even more interesting.

Thanks for the reminder about dusty mk1 compartment seats, I now seem to recall most of them suffered from that condition, can also remember when they were steam heated there was always this same damp musty smell e.g. if you had travelled from say Bristol behind a steam heat 46 and a loco change was performed at Birmingham NS to an AC Electric, as soon the electric heating kicked in the musty smell vanished and the seat base was acting like a cooker hot plate and grilling you alive Ha ha! Don't you just miss those days

 

[Peter Mugridge]

It's only a distant memory now but I can remember (and travelled on) the semi-fasts in the early 1980s. Some of the mk1 stock was a bit tatty towards the end but weren't they wonderful. Loco hauled trains travelling at 90 mph on jointed track under semaphore signals.
Absolute heaven!

I had one once, hauled by a 45, that gained no less than 20 minutes between Leicester and St Pancras; given the number of official bods that were on board that run and the "spirited running" the whole way I suspect it was some kind of authorised timing trial. Now that was a fun run...

 

[Diplodicus]

There were standard class compartments in composite coaches. IIRC they were the outward end compartments over the bogies.

A lot of passengers assumed they were first class so mostly, I would have the whole thing to myself.

Never saw a double header, but travelled from Snottinghayme

 

[eastwestdivide]

There were some booked double-header workings on the MML in the early 80s.
e.g. Loco-Hauled Travel 1982-83 shows these as as booked for 2 x 45/1:
0552 SX Derby-St Pancras which ties in with the OP's memory
SuO 1540 Derby-St Pancras
SuO 1305 Nottingham-St Pancras (the 1149 from Sheffield)

I'm pretty sure I caught one that was 45+47 on a Sunday too

 

[Phil.]

There were standard class compartments in composite coaches. IIRC they were the outward end compartments over the bogies.

A lot of passengers assumed they were first class so mostly, I would have the whole thing to myself.

Never saw a double header, but travelled from Snottinghayme

A corridor compo had seven compartments, three second and four first with a toilet at each end.
Just going off topic slightly some time around 1980 I took the sleeper down to Penzance. From Plymouth the train was subjected to the most terrible jolting at each station stop. Upon arrival at PZ I discovered why. A 45 had been attached to the front and it was merely coupled in tandem as there was no multiple working on the 47.

 

[70014IronDuke]

If you were in 1st class it was compartments. I'd moved to London after Uni and was earning a good wage so would sometimes travel up to see my family on a Friday night in 1st class.

The last stop before Derby was Long Eaton and I doubt that a class 45 was able to wind itself up to 90 mph before it was time to brake for Derby. Memories!
.......

I don't think it should have reached 90. I believe line speed between Trent and Spondon was 80 mph. It would have braked for Spondon first (psr was what, 60 mph?), then accelerated again for about mile, then eased for the Derby approach and psr into the station.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I had one once, hauled by a 45, that gained no less than 20 minutes between Leicester and St Pancras; given the number of official bods that were on board that run and the "spirited running" the whole way I suspect it was some kind of authorised timing trial. Now that was a fun run...

On steam timings? Fastest was 99 minutes. 79 minutes would be just about possible with a 45 if only one TSR was imposed on the route.

Or a Sunday?

Otherwise the standard schedule for a 45 + 9 on St Pancras-Leicester non-stop was, from memory, 82 minutes. (might have been a bit more some years, say 83 or 84.) This would include 2 TSRs for permanent way work.

I'm afraid you must have been mistaken if you think 20 minutes could be lopped off that schedule. Even if I've remembered incorrectly (let's say the timings were 85 minutes - and in truth, it might have been a few more minutes in the up direction) there is simply no way a Cl 45 could reach London in 65 minutes from Leicester with a service train load.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There were some booked double-header workings on the MML in the early 80s.
e.g. Loco-Hauled Travel 1982-83 shows these as as booked for 2 x 45/1:
0552 SX Derby-St Pancras which ties in with the OP's memory
SuO 1540 Derby-St Pancras
SuO 1305 Nottingham-St Pancras (the 1149 from Sheffield)

I'm pretty sure I caught one that was 45+47 on a Sunday too

From memory, HSTs were introduced on all Sheffield fasts from October 1982. I can't remember when the semi-fasts were HSTd, but I'm pretty sure they had all gone by 1985 October, bar two peak hour workings (obviously up in the morning, down in the evening).

That had dwindled to one loco-hauled by 1990 - for a time I think the last Cl 45/1 worked it quite regularly until it caught fire. It was then a Cl 47/4.

I simply forget how long into the 90s it lasted.

I don't dispute your seeing 2 x Cl 45s on some workings, but I very much doubt these trains were timed for such power. It would have been merely for positioning purposes. I regularly used the line 1969-1975, and can never remember seeing one instance of 2 x 45s used - although i'm sure I did see some on test trains from Derby or Toton. (I don't actually remember any of those as it would obviously been for test run purposes, ie unremarkable.)

 

[eastwestdivide]

Interest piqued, I went back to my notebooks:
Sun 10.10.82, at Leicester,
45065 + 45133 up arrive 1339 with air-con Mk2s. I then noted "both working - a regular Sunday feature"
(that working corresponds to the 1305 from Nottingham noted in my previous post).

Sun 17.10.82, at Leicester,
45142 + 45135 up arrive 1617 with air-con Mk2s. Also noted "both working".

Sun 24.10.82, at Leicester,
45103 + 45125 up arrive 1406 with air-con Mk2s. Noted "both working, the 1333" - so looks like the late-running train from Sheffield, double-headed from Nottingham, as in the LH Travel book.

Sun 31.10.82, at Leicester,
45070 + 45103 up arrive 1351 with air-con Mk2s.

Sun 7.11.82, at Leicester,
45125 + 45124 up arrive 1356 with air-con Mk2s.

Sun 5.12.82, at Leicester,
45145 + 45139 up arrive 1339 with air-con Mk2s.

Sun 23.1.83, at Leicester,
45111 + 45117 up arrive 1404 with air-con Mk2s. Noted as "late, from Sheffield".

Sun 13.3.83, at Leicester,
45113 + 45137 up arrive 1348 with air-con Mk2s.

same working 45117 + 45103 on Sun 17.4.83; 45150 + 45112 on 24.4.83;

Sun 8.5.83, I went to Nottingham, and picked up 45136 + 45127 at 1336 to Leicester, then waited there for 45107 + 45115 at 1625 as far as Wellingborough. (i.e. both workings from the LH travel guide).

Last day of the timetable, 15.5.83, I caught 47480 + 45107 at 1414 from Leicester to London. I've a photo somewhere.

The following Sunday 22.5.83, new timetable and diversions via Corby, but there was 47491 + 45126 arriving Leicester 1352, running round and departing northbound at 1415 to London.
Sun 29.5.83, I photographed 45120 + 45136 on air-con Mk2s northbound at Syston at 1357, again diverted via Corby to London.


By this time I was also noting many HSTs, as you say, but evidently it wasn't every single Sheffield working.
And I agree, the double-heading was unlikely to have been for timing purposes, but for positioning instead, as per the LH Travel book.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Found the photos, from May 83:
At Leicester (HST in background, 47480 leading)

At St Pancras (looks like they already moved forward off the stock, lamp attached to 45107)

Another working at Mill Hill, presumably the later Derby-London working, which I'd gone back out to photograph.

Those were the days.

 

[Johnnie2Sheds]

I THINK the APT-E holds the record for PX - LR? 59 minutes and a few seconds.......Long, long time ago. I remember it singing through Barrow on the Down Main on one of its runs through from Melton back to the research centre, it was bleddy shifting then.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I THINK the APT-E holds the record for PX - LR? 59 minutes and a few seconds.......Long, long time ago. I remember it singing through Barrow on the Down Main on one of its runs through from Melton back to the research centre, it was bleddy shifting then.

30/10/1975 APT-E St. Pancras - Leicester 58min 30sec. max speed attained 136.7mph.

You were not far out!

 

[Mvann]

I don't remember seeing many double headed peaks on passenger trains. Our house backed on to the line at Kibworth, near enough, and the high school was also next to the railway line. Saying that though, we were very rarely at home on the weekends.
The Friday reliefs were a very strange diagram. The locos were Cardiff cl37's that ran to derby, then did an out and back to London, then back to Cardiff.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

On steam timings? Fastest was 99 minutes. 79 minutes would be just about possible with a 45 if only one TSR was imposed on the route.

Or a Sunday?

Otherwise the standard schedule for a 45 + 9 on St Pancras-Leicester non-stop was, from memory, 82 minutes. (might have been a bit more some years, say 83 or 84.) This would include 2 TSRs for permanent way work.

I'm afraid you must have been mistaken if you think 20 minutes could be lopped off that schedule. Even if I've remembered incorrectly (let's say the timings were 85 minutes - and in truth, it might have been a few more minutes in the up direction) there is simply no way a Cl 45 could reach London in 65 minutes from Leicester with a service train load.

This would have been in the mid 1980s, on a weekday. The run definitely gained a lot of time against what it was booked to do. Wonder if it was book to make intermediate stops but they cut them out for some reason?

Edit: Just found some photos from the day; it was 5th April 1983. That was a Tuesday.

 

[eastwestdivide]

On the London-Leicester timings, my 1978-79 all-line timetable has:
The down Master Cutler from St P at 1720, arrive Leicester 1844, i.e. 84 mins.
Many down "fasts" during the day were xx53 off StP arriving Leicester xx30, i.e. 97 mins.
The up Master Cutler was then 0823 off Leicester arriving StP at 0950, i.e. 87 mins.
And many up "fasts" were xx25 - xx06 or xx27 - xx09, i.e. 101 mins and 102 mins if my maths serves me.

I don't have a timetable for the early 80s when the HSTs were coming in, but seem to recall about 90 mins for a non-stop Peak and 75 for a non-stop HST. It was really noticeable how much faster you'd top the summits at Desborough and Sharnbrook with an HST.
I must have some logs somewhere.

 

[70014IronDuke]

This would have been in the mid 1980s, on a weekday. The run definitely gained a lot of time against what it was booked to do. Wonder if it was book to make intermediate stops but they cut them out for some reason?

Edit: Just found some photos from the day; it was 5th April 1983. That was a Tuesday.

April 83 would still have been the first TT for regular HST deployment. So the semi-fasts were all still booked for Cl 45s, I think. If your train was a Cl 45 but running late, I suppose control may have decided to omit stops to avoid it holding up a following HST running to time. This would definitely explain how it could pick up so much time, yes. I have no idea if this did this regularly or not, but it would make some sense. (In the days of 2 TPH, all Cl 45s, they would divert the semi-fast onto the goods lines at Glendon North and allow the fast to overtake.)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

On the London-Leicester timings, my 1978-79 all-line timetable has:
The down Master Cutler from St P at 1720, arrive Leicester 1844, i.e. 84 mins.
Many down "fasts" during the day were xx53 off StP arriving Leicester xx30, i.e. 97 mins.

Non-stop? On a weekday? 97 minutes does not make sense at all. This is only 2 mins faster than the best steam timings. Unless there were some very heavy pw work planned in this period, 97 minutes would enable three stops to be inserted, or two if one was Bedford.

But if the Cutler could do it in 84 minutes, there can't have been any special PW work.

AIRI, in October 1975, to cut costs, BR axed the oh-so-effective 'integrated' timetable that had beenworking since 1968 or 69. (ie semifast, every hour, left St Pancras 30 or 35 mins before the fast, waited at Leicester to be overtaken, and thus provide a 1 TP 2 hours direct fast each to Derby and Nottingham, and 1 TP 2 hours "pretty fast" but with a change and stopping at Loughborough - ie 1 TPH fast to Sheffield, and more or less 1 TPH fast to Nottingham and Derby.)

So, the point is, once they abandoned this system, AIRI they had to insert a few extra stops into some of the 'fasts', at least during the off peak hours in daytime - maybe this is what you are referring to as 'fasts' in the 78-79 TT?

It's also possible that after this they made some consists of up to 10 coaches on the fast trains - but the extra 34 tonnes or so would maybe add 60-90 seconds of running time, it still not explain an additional 13 minutes.

The up Master Cutler was then 0823 off Leicester arriving StP at 0950, i.e. 87 mins.
And many up "fasts" were xx25 - xx06 or xx27 - xx09, i.e. 101 mins and 102 mins if my maths serves me.

Again, I have to ask, were these 'fasts' non-stop? these timings do not make sense for a Cl 45 + 9 - which c 1973 when ETH sets were introduced were no worse than 85 minutes, i'm pretty sure.

I don't have a timetable for the early 80s when the HSTs were coming in, but seem to recall about 90 mins for a non-stop Peak and 75 for a non-stop HST. It was really noticeable how much faster you'd top the summits at Desborough and Sharnbrook with an HST.
I must have some logs somewhere.

This would be where the power available with an HST would be most obvious.
Especially in the up, with the PSRs at Mkt Harborough and Wellingborough, a Cl 45 on a fast struggled to gain any meaningful acceleration up Desborough and Sharnbrook banks.

I can't remember exactly, but I think the best you could normally get would be around 58-60mph at the summits with a 45. I'd imagine HSTs can make 80 mph with little difficulty? (ANd I guess there may be a PSR on the top of Desboro because of the curve there?)

 

[Johnuk123]

It's only a distant memory now but I can remember (and travelled on) the semi-fasts in the early 1980s. Some of the mk1 stock was a bit tatty towards the end but weren't they wonderful. Loco hauled trains travelling at 90 mph on jointed track under semaphore signals.
Absolute heaven!

Yes it was absolute heaven a million miles away from present day sanatized travel. At the time though you didn't appreciate it.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Trying to cut the quotes to a manageable size:

Non-stop? On a weekday? 97 minutes does not make sense at all. This is only 2 mins faster than the best steam timings. Unless there were some very heavy pw work planned in this period, 97 minutes would enable three stops to be inserted, or two if one was Bedford.

But if the Cutler could do it in 84 minutes, there can't have been any special PW work.
...
So, the point is, once they abandoned this system, AIRI they had to insert a few extra stops into some of the 'fasts', at least during the off peak hours in daytime - maybe this is what you are referring to as 'fasts' in the 78-79 TT?
...
Again, I have to ask, were these 'fasts' non-stop? these timings do not make sense for a Cl 45 + 9 - which c 1973 when ETH sets were introduced were no worse than 85 minutes, i'm pretty sure.

I can understand your scepticism, and I was surprised when I looked myself, but:

So yes, they were non-stop, and yes, it's odd how the Master Cutler managed it and the others didn't.
I notice that in those extracts, the 1555 from London is quicker, and ditto the 0910 from Leicester, so perhaps that timetable had off-peak padding for some kind of engineering/PW works, which were only scheduled for something like 1000-1600.
That was the 1978-79 timetable.

I lived in Leicester 81-83 ish, and as I mentioned before, thought that 90 mins was a typical "round figure" for a non-stop London, 45 + 9 coaches. Unfortunately, I don't have another timetable for that period.
However, I do have a 1974 ABC rail guide, which gives fastest London/Leicester times in the range of 85-90 mins, so the 1978-79 looks to have been an exception.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Trying to cut the quotes to a manageable size:

I can understand your scepticism, and I was surprised when I looked myself, but:

So yes, they were non-stop, and yes, it's odd how the Master Cutler managed it and the others didn't.
I notice that in those extracts, the 1555 from London is quicker, and ditto the 0910 from Leicester, so perhaps that timetable had off-peak padding for some kind of engineering/PW works, which were only scheduled for something like 1000-1600.
......

I think I've got it - or you led me to it.

It was, surely the time of wiring St Pancras to Bedford - I am 98.8% certain that is the explanation.

and as you suggest, they almost certainly avoided the peak hours whenever possible.

If you look at the timings, one of the up trains is given 66 minutes from Bedford to St Pancras NON-stop!

I think the standard timing was something like 42-44 minutes non-stop (at least in the down, there would have been 4-5 mins recovery time added in the up, I suspect.)

So, that would explain 78-79 I think. If any such timings were around in 1983 - i mean, 101 or 102 minutes from Leicester - then yes, a Cl 45, especially if running late and with a clear road - could definitely have brought that down to 82 minutes. (A Royal Scot with 9 on could keep those timings in 1961. )

 

[eastwestdivide]

Of course - that would make a lot of sense for the "BedPan" electrification works - while I was at Leicester in about 1982, a visit to Nottingham found loads of 317s parked up waiting for delivery.
Wasn't the scheduled opening for BedPan delayed for a dispute over one-person operation?

The other thing about extended timings being in force in 1983 - could it have been a Sunday? Sundays were notorious for mad timings, as a multiplicity of alternative routes were available for different sections between London and Sheffield. I do recall trying to work out when interesting diversions were available from the different dated Sunday timings.

 

[randyrippley]

just a quick thought.......back in the late 70's some at least of the semi-fasts were hauled by 47's, not Peaks. Would that have made any difference|?

 

[Mvann]

Maybe wrong, but someone told me as a kid that the cl47 hauled trains had an extra coach.

 

[randyrippley]

Maybe wrong, but someone told me as a kid that the cl47 hauled trains had an extra coach.

dunno about that, but the few times I did the trip the 47's were pulling Mk1's the Peaks MkII's

 

[70014IronDuke]

Of course - that would make a lot of sense for the "BedPan" electrification works - while I was at Leicester in about 1982, a visit to Nottingham found loads of 317s parked up waiting for delivery.
Wasn't the scheduled opening for BedPan delayed for a dispute over one-person operation?

Yes, as I recall reading.

The other thing about extended timings being in force in 1983 - could it have been a Sunday? Sundays were notorious for mad timings, as a multiplicity of alternative routes were available for different sections between London and Sheffield. I do recall trying to work out when interesting diversions were available from the different dated Sunday timings.

Peter says it was a Tuesday.

When I wrote a Scot + 9 could keep those times, I meant 102 minutes to London - not 82.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

dunno about that, but the few times I did the trip the 47's were pulling Mk1's the Peaks MkII's

A Cl 47 was around 24 tonnes lighter and had a rated maximum speed of 95 mph. So, if the track and carriages (and most of the Mk 1s by then were 100 mph) were passed for 100 mph, in theory it could have gained some time on a Cl 45 schedule.

In real life, I don't think anyone would have noticed any difference.

Assuming you mean the Peaks were hauling Mk2Ds or later, ie air-con stock, then of course you would need a 45/1 or a 47/4 on the train. If it was Mk 1 or Mk 2 - 2B stock, a steam heat, or in summer, a non-boilered loco could haul the stock.

 

[randyrippley]

thinking back about it. the MkII's probably did have a/c. Such a long time ago though, hard to remember

 

[eastwestdivide]

Going back to the double-header turns on Sundays, I've not located the full log, but my other notes for the run I had on 15.5.83 with 47480+45107 from Leicester-London had the highlights: "81 mph at Desborough and 82 mph at Sharnbrook summits".
Which is substantially faster than a single Peak. I seem to remember topping those summits regularly at 60-70 max (see below).
I used to time with a 1/10th second stopwatch over half-mile stretches.

Found a trip from 25/3/83, southbound behind 45117, noting 61 mph over Sharnbrook (stopped at Kettering, but not Wellingborough).
A southbound trip in early June 1983 on an HST I noted as 86 mph over Sharnbrook, and the corresponding northbound trip a week later was a 45/1, noted at 68 mph over Sharnbrook.