Doubling back via BHM on the Cross City line

[Railjet]

Is a CDR to Worcester from stations on the southern section of the Cross-City line available via BHM and Bromsgrove?

It would seem ridiculous if not, but I can't see an easement which allows it.

 

[glynn80]

Is a CDR to Worcester from stations on the southern section of the Cross-City line available via BHM and Bromsgrove?

It would seem ridiculous if not, but I can't see an easement which allows it.

Only from Alvechurch and Redditch.

You are allowed to do so because the Routeing Guide has an easement allowing you to(http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/easements.htm)

000086 Journeys to Alvechurch and Redditch via Ashchurch may double back from Birmingham New Street. This easement applies in both directions of travel.

 

[87015]

Love to know how you do say Longbridge - Worcester/Cheltenham without doubling back?

I did it hundreds of times whilst at uni say Selly Oak - Cheltenham or Worcester via New St absolutely no problem. NXEC agress aswell.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

How does that easement work for a ticket from Worcester?

You wouldn't be travelling to Alvechurch or Redditch, via Ashchurch, would you?

Only from Alvechurch and Redditch.

You are allowed to do so because the Routeing Guide has an easement allowing you to(http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/easements.htm)

000086 Journeys to Alvechurch and Redditch via Ashchurch may double back from Birmingham New Street. This easement applies in both directions of travel.

 

[dan_atki]

Love to know how you do say Longbridge - Worcester without doubling back?

I did it hundreds of times whilst at uni say Selly Oak - Cheltenham via New St absolutely no problem.

According to NXEC and thetrainline you are not meant to undertake such a journey*... Despite a fare existing in Avantix, NXEC and thetrainline can see that you are 'illegally' doubling back and as such will not provide fares.

*Except at 0704 Outward and 1615/1809 Return travelling via Barnt Green, Bromsgrove, and Droitwich Spa. Funnily enough this renders the CDR useless - restriction code B6 means travel at or after 0815...

 

[glynn80]

How does that easement work for a ticket from Worcester?

You wouldn't be travelling to Alvechurch or Redditch, via Ashchurch, would you?

Sorry I didn't read the easement properly and missed out the "via Ashchurch" part of it.

If the OP for example wishes to make their journey from a member of the Barnt Green group (which includes all stations on the southern section of the cross-city line but from Kings Norton northwards those stations are also members of the Birmingham group as well which may reveal more valid routes) then you can make your journey using only map CE, which allows you only one valid route- that being Barnt Green to Birmingham to Smethwick to Worcester.

This is probably because there are very few direct services from Barnt Green to Bromsgrove anymore- there only seems to be one in the southbound direction at 0743 arriving at 0805 into Shrub Hill. This service would be valid on a Barnt Green to Worcester ticket due to the fact you can travel on any direct services between the station on your ticket. The shortest route rule would also allow any stations on the Cross-City route connecting into that train travelling validly as well.

But to answer the OPs original question you cannot double back legally to Birmingham if you are travelling to Worcester.

EDIT-
If the OP however wished to make their journey via Ashchurch they would be able to use my original easement.

I.e. If they were travelling from Redditch to Worcester Shrub Hill, they could legally go Redditch to New Street to Ashchurch to Worcester, they would only be doubling back on the Redditch to Birmingham leg of the journey as going down to Ashchurch does not constitute doubling back as you don't pass through any other station again by doing so. I have no idea whether this is any quicker for the OP but opens up more options for them.

 

[gordonthemoron]

however, you can double back at Birmingham University

 

[glynn80]

however, you can double back at Birmingham University

Can you??

I can't seem to find the easement you mention?

 

[gordonthemoron]

well what I did was use NXEC and put in redditch to worcester stations, nearly all are routed via university

 

[glynn80]

well what I did was use NXEC and put in redditch to worcester stations, nearly all are routed via university

A route given on the NXEC site or theTrainline is not necessarily a valid one as specified in the routeing guide.

Both are interpretations of the routeing guide, they are by no means a definitive guide to it. There are many differences between routes allowed/disallowed between the two sites and this should give you an indication of the flexibility they have allowed themselves with regard to routeing.

I do agree however if you purchased a ticket from one of the two sites with that routeing specified on the ticket or printed out a seperate reservations, a guard would be hard pushed to argue against it.

 

[gordonthemoron]

well, I tried the routing guide, but the maps for worcester-birmingham don't seem to exist

 

[Mcr Warrior]

EDIT-
If the OP however wished to make their journey via Ashchurch they would be able to use my original easement.

I.e. If they were travelling from Redditch to Worcester Shrub Hill, they could legally go Redditch to New Street to Ashchurch to Worcester, they would only be doubling back on the Redditch to Birmingham leg of the journey as going down to Ashchurch does not constitute doubling back as you don't pass through any other station again by doing so. I have no idea whether this is any quicker for the OP but opens up more options for them.

:roll: Not sure if Redditch-Birmingham New Street-Ashchurch-Worcester is a permitted route for a Redditch to Worcester ticket, and even if it is, it's not particularly useful anyway as during the week there are only two trains per day from New Street to Ashchurch (and then onward to Worcester) on which a CDR would be valid, similarly in the reverse direction.

 

[glynn80]

:roll: Not sure if Redditch-Birmingham New Street-Ashchurch-Worcester is a permitted route for a Redditch to Worcester ticket, and even if it is, it's not particularly useful anyway as during the week there are only two trains per day from New Street to Ashchurch (and then onward to Worcester) on which a CDR would be valid, similarly in the reverse direction.

What are you not sure of??

Which part of what I have said is invalid?

A ticket from Redditch to Worcester Stations would have routeing points Barnt Green and Worcester.

Barnt Green to Worcester has one map CE which allows you travel Barnt Green to Gloucester and then up to Worcester, but you would not be able to undertake that journey as you would be doubling back through Ashchurch, you can change at Ashchurch though to avoid this.

The easement 000086
Journeys to Alvechurch and Redditch via Ashchurch may double back from Birmingham New Street. This easement applies in both directions of travel.
allows you to double back from Barnt Green to Birmingham New Street and thus completes what I have stated above, they are travelling via Ashchurch on this occasion by means of getting to Worcester.

Please next time check the routeing guide before disputing, also if you note I did not know if this would have been quicker for the OP but just it opened up more options for them.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

What are you not sure of??

Which part of what I have said is invalid?

A ticket from Redditch to Worcester Stations would have routeing points Barnt Green and Worcester.

Barnt Green to Worcester has one map CE which allows you travel Barnt Green to Gloucester and then up to Worcester, but you would not be able to undertake that journey as you would be doubling back through Ashchurch, you can change at Ashchurch though to avoid this.

The easement 000086
Journeys to Alvechurch and Redditch via Ashchurch may double back from Birmingham New Street. This easement applies in both directions of travel.
allows you to double back from Barnt Green to Birmingham New Street and thus completes what I have stated above, they are travelling via Ashchurch on this occasion by means of getting to Worcester.

Please next time check the routeing guide before disputing, also if you note I did not know if this would have been quicker for the OP but just it opened up more options for them.

Thank you for the explanation, but the reason for querying whether Redditch-Birmingham New Street-Ashchurch-Worcester is a permitted route for a Redditch to Worcester ticket is that the price of a ticket from Redditch to Ashchurch seems to be more than the equivalent from Redditch to Worcester.

 

[John @ home]

well, I tried the routing guide, but the maps for worcester-birmingham don't seem to exist

Most unusually, the maps from Birmingham to Worcester are different from the maps from Worcester to Birmingham.

From Birmingham to Worcester, maps are CE and GC.
CE shows Birmingham to Smethwick to Worcester, or Birmingham to Barnt Green to Gloucester to Worcester.
GC shows Birmingham to Jewelry [sic] Quarter to Smethwick to Stourbridge Junction to Worcester.

From Worcester to Birmingham, maps are PH and WM.
PH shows Worcester to Smethwick to Birmingham, or Worcester to Gloucester to Barnt Green to Birmingham.
WM shows Worcester to Kidderminster to Smethwick to Birmingham.

All 4 maps are in the pdf file which is obtained from Download all maps here http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/maps/index.htm Map PH is omitted from the individual maps listed on that page.

John

 

[Railjet]

So from KNN, strictly speaking only via BHM and Stourbridge is allowed (no regular service via Barnt Green), even though doubling back via University (or even BHM) would be shorter.

I believe that in practice that all fares on the southern CC line (within the West Midlands at least) are valid via BHM (even if doubled-back).

 

[yorkie]

You can use the shortest route "over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates". Yes you are not meant to double back but as far as I'm concerned if the only available shortest route " over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates" involves doubling back then that should trump the no doubling back rule. The RG is clear as mud as to which rule overrules which rule, but if this was tested in a court of law I am pretty confident they would rule in a passengers' favour (IANAL).

 

[dan_atki]

You can use the shortest route "over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates". Yes you are not meant to double back but as far as I'm concerned if the only available shortest route " over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates" involves doubling back then that should trump the no doubling back rule. The RG is clear as mud as to which rule overrules which rule, but if this was tested in a court of law I am pretty confident they would rule in a passengers' favour (IANAL).

Would have to agree. The 'regularity rule' means that journeys from Millbrook (Hants) and Redbridge to say Bournemouth, are allowed via Southampton Central - despite doubling back through Millbrook and Redbridge and no easement saying this is allowed. There is no other way to complete the journey and announcements on board northbound services say to change at SOU for Bournemouth and Weymouth.

What's weird is that NXEC see this as a viable routeing but nothing for Longbridge to Worcester...

 

[glynn80]

Would have to agree. The 'regularity rule' means that journeys from Millbrook (Hants) and Redbridge to say Bournemouth, are allowed via Southampton Central - despite doubling back through Millbrook and Redbridge and no easement saying this is allowed. There is no other way to complete the journey and announcements on board northbound services say to change at SOU for Bournemouth and Weymouth.

What's weird is that NXEC see this as a viable routeing but nothing for Longbridge to Worcester...

"Regular" sort of seems to be explained by ATOC and the TOCs as stated in Section F of the routeing guide.

For some journeys, though not for this, a train operator may allow the journey via a longer route as well as the shortest. This could be because the regular passenger service by the shortest route is infrequent. If a journey is permitted by a more generous route the easement allowing it is listed in Section E (the green pages) of this guide.

What it seems to be saying is if there is a journey for which the routeing guide only allows a route over which an infrequent service operates then an easement allowing a longer route will be given an easement allowing this. If there isn't an easement you are not allowed to decide yourself that a service is infrequent and take a longer route, you would have to lobby ATOC to add an easement under the disputed route procedure.

 

[yorkie]

That only applies if there is a "regular" but "infrequent" service. One or two trains a day is hardly a regular service. A train every couple of ours is regular but infrequent.

 

[Mojo]

What would be the situation, if say you had a ticket [stn]WOF[/stn] > [stn]KNN[/stn]. Could you be "done" for having a ticket that doesn't cover your journey if you went into [stn]BHM[/stn]?

I was just thinking, otherwise you could say, if asked between WOF and BHM that you were going to cut your journey at BHM, and if asked between BHM and KNN that you came in via Smethwick. Not that I can imagine anyone being asked!

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure if they'd accept it but bear in mind that you can not be given a penalty fare for being off route, so you can't be "done" in that sense.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You can use the shortest route "over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates". Yes you are not meant to double back but as far as I'm concerned if the only available shortest route " over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates" involves doubling back then that should trump the no doubling back rule. The RG is clear as mud as to which rule overrules which rule, but if this was tested in a court of law I am pretty confident they would rule in a passengers' favour (IANAL).

Points to note:

• References to doubleing back are found in the NRG instructions.
• The shortest route for the entire journey is to be determined BEFORE using the NRG to select a valid route.
• Neither the NRG or the NCoC use the term "regular sheduled services" for determining the shortest route for the entire journey. The NCoC states that it should be the shortest route on "sheduled passenger services". The NRG makes no reference to particular services until step 3 of the NRG Instructions.

 

[Mojo]

AIUI, if travelling from any station north of Bournville and wanting to go towards Cheltenham then can you go via New Street, as long as you depart on the xx42 services which go via Camp Hill, and as such would not be doubling back Five Ways to Bournville?

 

[yorkie]

AIUI, if travelling from any station north of Bournville and wanting to go towards Cheltenham then can you go via New Street, as long as you depart on the xx42 services which go via Camp Hill, and as such would not be doubling back Five Ways to Bournville?

That's certainly valid but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't valid to double-back (for the reasons stated earlier).