Downsizing in germany

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timstours

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What is going on in germany ,perfectly usable and modern double deck loco hauled stock is being replaced by part double deck desiro HC units or similar ,examples include RE1 Achen -dortmund via koln. must be a reduction in capacity or am i missing something here ??.
basel -offenburg or freiburg and soon cottbus to madgeburg via berlin another very busy routes ,all hauled or were by modern cl146 locos
 
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43096

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What is going on in germany ,perfectly usable and modern double deck loco hauled stock is being replaced by part double deck desiro HC units or similar ,examples include RE1 Achen -dortmund via koln. must be a reduction in capacity or am i missing something here ??.
basel -offenburg or freiburg and soon cottbus to madgeburg via berlin another very busy routes ,all hauled or were by modern cl146 locos
Very simply, it's the tendering of regional services. Some of the Länder are financing their own fleets to reduce dependence on operators when contractors change, particularly DB Regio.
 

DanielB

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The RE1 from Aachen to Dortmund you're mentioning was tendered recently. As of June 2020 this route became part of the RRX network, hence the new trains.
Since that moment services are also no longer operated by DB Regio, but by Abellio Rail NRW instead.

But due to problems with the available staff, Abellio had hired DB Regio to run part of their services in the first year.
 

Nohab1142

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That is the actual trend in Germany. It started with the RRX concept in the Ruhr area.
The latest one is Lower Saxony. Its Public transport authority LNVG has announced to buy 34 trains (Coradia Stream HC) from Alstom:
Press release (in German, but with graphics)
Also in this case the PTA will be the owner of the trains and the maintenance will be done by Alstom (with a new depot in Bremen). That's similiar to RRX with the VRR (PTA) as owner and Siemens as maintainer.
The problem of loco hauled trains is the slow acceleration. The High Capacity EMU have more motor bogies than one locomotive has.
 

YorkshireBear

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I think in the case of RRX last time I was in Cologne I saw loads of double units which I think would give more capacity than what they replace.

Not saying its a positive trend, it isn't in my opinion. But that might be part of it. I think much of that current double deck loco hauled stock is new enough it will find a home somewhere.
 

CC 72100

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I think much of that current double deck loco hauled stock is new enough it will find a home somewhere.
Of course (driving trailers excepted) the loco hauled Dosto coaches can easily slot into the Twindexx units which only have motors in the cab cars at the end.

When I went to Hamburg in 2016, several of the the (then) loco-hauled sets contained (new) grey coaches, alongside regular DB Dosto red coaches. The grey coaches became trailer cars in the Twindexx units which then ousted the loco-hauled sets on Flensburg and Kiel services about a year later.

The home for these excess coaches therefore could be sandwiched between motor coaches to form units.
 

superjohn

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The new units are part of the Rhein Ruhr Express project (RRX) which is a much bigger overall scheme. It will increase capacity through higher frequencies and new routes. This will give four trains per hour on the Köln to Dortmund core.

I know isn’t the done thing to praise units on here but they really are excellent trains. They are not loco hauled but, from a ’normal’ passenger point of view, they are superior in every way. In pairs (as they are planned to work) they match the capacity of the sets they replace. The increased frequency will basically double the overall capacity on the core route.

I think much of that current double deck loco hauled stock is new enough it will find a home somewhere.
The class 146 locos are already finding homes elsewhere, replacing class 111, 112 and 114. I’m not sure what the future holds for the double deck stock though. Some carriages may be used to boost capacity elsewhere but there really isn’t a need for whole sets anywhere. I suspect they will go into storage and some of the older double deck stock that are already in storage will go for scrap. DB seem to be building huge reserves of stored redundant stock with no obvious uses. Leipzig and Mukran both have massive former freight yards filled with old IC and Regio locomotive and stock.
 

30907

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Two thoughts:
1. DD stock is typically slower to load - important where there is a big "churn" of passengers - and not wonderfully accessible - hence the "half and half" units.
2. There are still ex DR DD vehicles in service, and they are over 30 years old, so plenty of work for displaced stock.
 

duesselmartin

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I think in the case of RRX last time I was in Cologne I saw loads of double units which I think would give more capacity than what they replace.

Not saying its a positive trend, it isn't in my opinion. But that might be part of it. I think much of that current double deck loco hauled stock is new enough it will find a home somewhere.
Sadly much of it is scrapped. Converting them to IC2 makes sense but is not happening.
 

LSWR Cavalier

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@superjohn
Perhaps the stock at Leipzig and Mukran is waiting to be shipped quietly abroad, or kept in reserve just in case

Alternatively, building new trains that are not needed supports jobs, that may be the reason

Am I the only one who finds the grey of the Dostos in Schleswig-Holstein unpleasant? It looks dirty even when clean. I guess it represents the endless muddy beaches on the North Sea
 

43096

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DB seem to be building huge reserves of stored redundant stock with no obvious uses. Leipzig and Mukran both have massive former freight yards filled with old IC and Regio locomotive and stock.
Interestingly, ÖBB are conducting a market investigation currently into the possibility of leasing or buying around 10 to 15 4-car sets of double-deck stock. You'd think DB might be interested in replying...
 

52290

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Two thoughts:
1. DD stock is typically slower to load - important where there is a big "churn" of passengers - and not wonderfully accessible - hence the "half and half" units.
2. There are still ex DR DD vehicles in service, and they are over 30 years old, so plenty of work for displaced stock.
My first trip on DD stock was from Magdeburg to Rostock in 1973 behind a 01.5 pacific. I traveled on the upper deck and it was pretty uncomfortable. I can't say the modern DD stock is much better.
 

YorkshireBear

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Didn't know they were building up massive reserves of coaches to be honest. With the volume of new orders actually on reflection, maybe they are off for scrap.
 

317666

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Two thoughts:
1. DD stock is typically slower to load - important where there is a big "churn" of passengers - and not wonderfully accessible - hence the "half and half" units.
2. There are still ex DR DD vehicles in service, and they are over 30 years old, so plenty of work for displaced stock.

Regarding your second point, there's very little ex-DR stock left now. Even a lot of DB's 1990s double decker stock (same shape/design as the more modern stuff but without air conditioning) is now out of work.
 

Bletchleyite

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@superjohn
Perhaps the stock at Leipzig and Mukran is waiting to be shipped quietly abroad, or kept in reserve just in case

Alternatively, building new trains that are not needed supports jobs, that may be the reason

Am I the only one who finds the grey of the Dostos in Schleswig-Holstein unpleasant? It looks dirty even when clean. I guess it represents the endless muddy beaches on the North Sea

As in this?


Grey DoSto livery, Eurailpress.de

Isn't it basically near enough exactly the Arriva battery/low emission bus livery? Looks OK to me.
 

rg177

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@superjohn

Perhaps the stock at Leipzig and Mukran is waiting to be shipped quietly abroad, or kept in reserve just in case
The only ex-DB double deck stock I've seen employed was those that had a short stint with RegioJet operating peak services between Bratislava hl.st and Komarno. Now that line is back in the hands of ZSSK, the stock seems to have gone unused again.
 

Spoorslag '70

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The capacity of a double set of Desiro HCs is actually higher than that of a set of 6 dostos! Keeping in mind that only the RE1 and RE5 had 6 coach sets (other lines were 5 coaches or - in case of the RE11 - 2x425), the new fleet is indeed a very welcome capacity boost. If the infrastructure works and the retimetabling should ever happen (well, it's been in planning since at least when I was born...) the Köln-Dortmund axis will be insanely better place than before (remember, pre-covid it was hard to find a RE in the Ruhrgebiet which was on time and/or had free seats).

It is however interesting that there are still some old dostos without a/c running around Munich (towards Ingolstadt, Augsburg and Memmingen) - it would have made some sense to send the more modern NRW ones down here. The new Berlin airport express got cascaded dostos, but many are now stuck in Mukran etc. and don't really seem to have any realistic chances of going back into service...
 

Spoorslag '70

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Given that the Desiro HC is only partly double deck, I can think of only one way that can be the case, and it isn't good - i.e. cramming the seats in.
The seating in the dostos was worse regarding legroom. Remember: One unit has 2 double-deck and 2 single-deck coaches - you have less stairs in the single deck coaches and thus have enough space to fit in more seats.
 

Bletchleyite

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The seating in the dostos was worse regarding legroom. Remember: One unit has 2 double-deck and 2 single-deck coaches - you have less stairs in the single deck coaches and thus have enough space to fit in more seats.

I genuinely don't get how this is possible. Are seating plans for each available anywhere?
 

Bletchleyite

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Basically the space needed for the loco is avaiable for seats. The Desiro HC is very comfortable. I commute on them on a daily basis. A bit noisy near the bogies.

Ah, so you're saying that the LHCS is 5 coaches and a loco, but these are 6 coaches? Yes, that would make sense. I thought the number of passenger vehicles was the same for both.
 

43096

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Ah, so you're saying that the LHCS is 5 coaches and a loco, but these are 6 coaches? Yes, that would make sense. I thought the number of passenger vehicles was the same for both.
LHCS was loco+6, the RRX Desiro HC sets are pairs of 4-cars, so 4 double deck, 4 single deck. Not wildly spectacular that a 8-car HC pair has slightly more seats than a 6-car Dosto.
 

Bletchleyite

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LHCS was loco+6, the RRX Desiro HC sets are pairs of 4-cars, so 4 double deck, 4 single deck. Not wildly spectacular that a 8-car HC pair has slightly more seats than a 6-car Dosto.

Indeed not, and as I'd expect that would also mean that an 8-car train of DoSto hauled coaches would have more still.

Not of course a reason not to have units, but I did think the claims being made above were outlandish. Of course a longer train will be able to have more seats! :)

OTOH, 2+2 "First Class" is a sham, should just be abolished if you're not going to have the lower-density aspect.
 

AlexNL

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One of the benefits of the single deck coaches is that they provide level access from platform to train.
 

superjohn

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Didn't know they were building up massive reserves of coaches to be honest. With the volume of new orders actually on reflection, maybe they are off for scrap.
A typical scene from Leipzig Engelsdorf marshalling yard can be seen here:
That was in 2019 and more stock has arrived since. Large numbers of Regio n-wagon, IC ’Bimz’ and CityNightLine vehicles are there along with lines of locos. If you search YouTube for “Schrottzug” (scrap train) you will find some very impressive trains of 20+ locos or carriages being moved across the country.

A handful have seen reuse but it is a tiny proportion of the amount stored. For example, the new Flixtrain fleet is made up of gutted and refurbished Bimz cars. In the picture above you can also see some of the ICK vehicles that were used by NS in the Netherlands for a while. They were returned around ten years ago though, why on earth are they being kept?

Given the relative size of the fleets, I guess this is the German equivalent of what we have stored at Ely and Worksop etc. It’s still hard to see the reasoning though. Even the obvious Eastern Europe market is moving towards a unit based railway these days.
 

Austriantrain

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Given that the Desiro HC is only partly double deck, I can think of only one way that can be the case, and it isn't good - i.e. cramming the seats in.

The reason why the end cars in Desiro HC are single-deck is because it doesn’t reduce capacity - on a double-deck (end) motor car the traction equipment takes up a large amount of space, so it really comes to the same capacity-wise - and is much simpler technically. So this choice does not reduce capacity of the train set.
 

Spoorslag '70

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Indeed not, and as I'd expect that would also mean that an 8-car train of DoSto hauled coaches would have more still.

Not of course a reason not to have units, but I did think the claims being made above were outlandish. Of course a longer train will be able to have more seats! :)

OTOH, 2+2 "First Class" is a sham, should just be abolished if you're not going to have the lower-density aspect.
The 6-car trains already struggled to keep to the running times, not to imagine what would have happened with 8-car ones (and 8 DoSto + a 146 might not even fit everywhere without blocking points, signal overlaps etc.). The Desiro HC units in comparison actually can make up some time if things are running well, something that was unheard of with the loco-hauled sets.

Regarding first class, the routes are a bit like Thameslink (realtivley long from start to end but mostly short[ish] journeys) and as such, first class is more about getting a seat in the first place. (The only time I used first class on a DoSto set, even that was full and standing...).
 
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