Downton Abbey - Railway usage in the period 1912-1926

[DarloRich]

Recently I was watching Downton Abbey with my mum. The characters often mentioned "going up to London" for the day.

The series is set in a fictional grand hise somewhere in Yorkshire. I have seen it said that the location is somewhere near Easingwold. Wiki tells me the series covers the years 1912-1926. The toffs often seem to go up to London and undertake tasks and get home in time for dinner. Could they do this at the time?

My question is: would this be possible in the time period the series is set? I think not.

( I also like to point out that the station used for "Downton" is on the Bluebell line and about as far form Yorkshire as you can get although the mise en scène often looks good enough)

 

[Haywain]

( I also like to point out that the station used for "Downton" is on the Bluebell line and about as far form Yorkshire as you can get although the mise en scène often looks good enough)

The real grand house used is actually in Berkshire.

 

[Cheshire Scot]

Recently I was watching Downton Abbey with my mum. The characters often mentioned "going up to London" for the day.

The series is set in a fictional grand hise somewhere in Yorkshire. I have seen it said that the location is somewhere near Easingwold. Wiki tells me the series covers the years 1912-1926. The toffs often seem to go up to London and undertake tasks and get home in time for dinner. Could they do this at the time?

My question is: would this be possible in the time period the series is set? I think not.

( I also like to point out that the station used for "Downton" is on the Bluebell line and about as far form Yorkshire as you can get although the mise en scène often looks good enough)

My recollection is from time to time they mentioning catching the train from/to Thirsk.

Whilst a day trip to London for such as distance would surely be quite unusual in that era I suppose, assuming timetables of the era made it feasible even if time available in London would surely be quite limited, the landed gentry would perhaps be the most likely to take such a trip.

 

[Western Lord]

I am sure that the writer (Julian Fellowes) came to regret setting it in Yorkshire (for no obvious reason) as in later series highly implausible day trips to London became a common occurrence.

 

[DarloRich]

Whilst a day trip to London for such as distance would surely be quite unusual in that era I suppose, assuming timetables of the era made it feasible even if time available in London would surely be quite limited, the landed gentry would perhaps be the most likely to take such a trip.

I am sure the toff characters could afford it - I am just not sure they could actually do it. The lead male character always has an out he can always stay " at his club" but that is not available to the female lead characters.

 

[Calthrop]

Wasn't there at that time, one London club of the upper-crust variety concerned -- an exact counterpart of the men-only ones; but founded by prominent feminists, and catering for and admitting women only? -- or is that fictional, read of by me in some work of fiction set in that era?

 

[Cheshire Scot]

I am sure the toff characters could afford it - I am just not sure they could actually do it. The lead male character always has an out he can always stay " at his club" but that is not available to the female lead characters.

Bradshaws July 1922 Railway Guide reveals the first Newcastle to London train departed Thirsk at 08.56, arriving Kings Cross at 1.35 pm. The last Kings Cross connection to Thirsk departed at 1.50pm reaching Thirsk with a change at York at 7.46 p/m. although a 2.25 pm departure from St Pancras could get you to Thirsk at 8.29 pm.

So, in short, in 1922 at least, not feasible!

 

[Rescars]

Did any sleepers call at Thirsk? If so, that would be a way of lengthening the time in London and still getting back to Downton in time to join the rest of the family at breakfast. Not much fun for the chauffeur though!

 

[DarloRich]

Bradshaws July 1922 Railway Guide reveals the first Newcastle to London train departed Thirsk at 08.56, arriving Kings Cross at 1.35 pm. The last Kings Cross connection to Thirsk departed at 1.50pm reaching Thirsk with a change at York at 7.46 p/m. although a 2.25 pm departure from St Pancras could get you to Thirsk at 8.29 pm.

So, in short, in 1922 at least, not feasible!

Thanks - Could it be done from York? Perhaps the chauffeur motored them down to York. it will be about 15 miles from Easingwold to York ( and similar to Thirsk)

Did any sleepers call at Thirsk? If so, that would be a way of lengthening the time in London and still getting back to Downton in time to join the rest of the family at breakfast!

they have to be back in time to change for dinner

 

[daodao]

Bradshaws July 1922 Railway Guide reveals the first Newcastle to London train departed Thirsk at 08.56, arriving Kings Cross at 1.35 pm. The last Kings Cross connection to Thirsk departed at 1.50pm reaching Thirsk with a change at York at 7.46 p/m. although a 2.25 pm departure from St Pancras could get you to Thirsk at 8.29 pm.

So, in short, in 1922 at least, not feasible!

The April 1910 Bradshaw shows a later departure from King's Cross at 6.05pm, arriving at Thirsk at 10.59pm. Not in time for an evening meal back home, but there was a dining car as far as Grantham.

 

[Gloster]

But, my dear fellow(es), it is perfectly simple. You just send a footman to Thirsk station and get him to instruct the stationmaster to have one of the night trains stopped. I know it means rising early, but no more than for some of one’s shoots. When returning you just advise the stationmaster at Kings Cross to have the train stopped.

As ticketing was more rational in those days, it was quite easy to start from one station and return from another. Getting a car to meet the train at York would be quite straightforward even if you started from Thirsk.

But, in truth, stopping overnight at one’s club or a hotel was something perfectly normal for those with plenty of money. They might take a servant along with them (in Third, of course) to carry the baggage and assist or they might travel alone and make do with the bare minimum of personal items for one night: razor, spare collar, toothbrush, and not much more. There were no worries about buying stuff to add to this and leaving them behind (the ‘throwaway’ society), or the club porter might have a store of bits and pieces that he would let you have for a generous tip.

Wasn't there at that time, one London club of the upper-crust variety concerned -- an exact counterpart of the men-only ones; but founded by prominent feminists, and catering for and admitting women only? -- or is that fictional, read of by me in some work of fiction set in that era?

There were a small number of clubs for women, but (as said) they tended to have been set and run by and for the feminist and blue-stocking ‘independent’ women, many of whom had no choice about being independent after the loss of so many eligible males in The Great War. The female toffs were more likely to stay with a relative (one unintended advantage of all that intermarrying), but not at a hotel as a young(-ish) women would be looked at askance if she turned up at even the most exclusive hotel: she might even be refused accommodation. Some families would always stay at the same hotel and be known there so a single female from the family might be tolerated.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The real grand house used is actually in Berkshire.

No, Highclere Castle is actually in Hampshire (although only 5 miles from Newbury in Berkshire).

You'd think the Yorkshire base would use the K&WVR or the North York Moors railways, but no they use a Southern heritage line.
Some of of the supposed "Yorkshire" Downton sites needing stone frontages are actually in Wiltshire.

Rather like Endeavour at Oxford also used an SR heritage line, rather than a GWR one (or possibly the LNWR towards Bletchley).
Some of the canal scenes did include the railway swing bridge which at one time led to Rewley Road station.

At least Heartbeat used the NYMR at Goathland extensively, being supposedly based nearby.
But they never acknowledged the "end of steam" as the series got stuck in "1969".

 

[Haywain]

No, Highclere Castle is actually in Hampshire (although only 5 miles from Newbury in Berkshire).

I'll tell Mrs H that she got it wrong!

Rather like Endeavour at Oxford also used an SR heritage line, rather than a GWR one (or possibly the LNWR towards Bletchley).

And Morse regularly used a country pub in Hertfordshire.

 

[Titfield]

If they had set it on the Isle of Purbeck, then we could have had "Downton Castle" which Lord Grantham bequeathes to a grateful nation in lieu of any tax he owes.

 

[DarloRich]

They might take a servant along with them (in Third, of course) to carry the baggage and assist or they might travel alone and make do with the bare minimum of personal items for one night: razor, spare collar, toothbrush, and not much more. There were no worries about buying stuff to add to this and leaving them behind (the ‘throwaway’ society), or the club porter might have a store of bits and pieces that he would let you have for a generous tip.

Good Lord! One always takes one's man on a trip to London! How one one hail a taxi cab without a valet?

The female toffs were more likely to stay with a relative

the lead female toff always offers to "open the house" when one of the minor female toffs travels to London on trips to the smoke.

But, my dear fellow(es), it is perfectly simple. You just send a footman to Thirsk station and get him to instruct the stationmaster to have one of the night trains stopped. I know it means rising early, but no more than for some of one’s shoots. When returning you just advise the stationmaster at Kings Cross to have the train stopped.

they did mention in one episode that "they wont hold the train for us these days" so perhaps eventually the toffs had to abide by the timetable.

We should have had a revolution in this country!

 

[PeterC]

There's plenty of literary precedent for that sort of distortion of geography.

Hardy did it with his Wessex novels and Wodehouse gave Blandings travel times to London that put the castle somewhere near Evesham despite being in Shropshire

 

[Rescars]

For a literary work combining real locations with real trains and real timetables which recounts the challenges of travel in rural parts in the 1920s, try Dorothy Sayers' "Five Red Herrings".

 

[Gloster]

For a literary work combining real locations with real trains and real timetables which recounts the challenges of travel in rural parts in the 1920s, try Dorothy Sayers' "Five Red Herrings".

Or some of Freeman Wills Crofts’ works, notably Sir John Magill‘s Last Journey, which is mentioned in Five Red Herrings.

 

[Snow1964]

I think most of the village scenes in Downton Abbey were filmed in Brampton, Oxfordshire.

It had a station on the East Gloucestershire railway from Fairford to Witney (the former line and station site is now on edge of Brize Norton Airfield).

 

[Gloster]

I think most of the village scenes in Downton Abbey were filmed in Brampton, Oxfordshire.

It had a station on the East Gloucestershire railway from Fairford to Witney (the former line and station site is now on edge of Brize Norton Airfield).

Bampton? Was Brize Norton and Bampton from 1940, but always had to be differentiated from Bampton in Devon. (I wonder if any American servicemen ever ended up staring at the River Batherm and wondering where the goddam airfield was.)

 

[Rescars]

Or some of Freeman Wills Crofts’ works, notably Sir John Magill‘s Last Journey, which is mentioned in Five Red Herrings.

Yes indeed. Another author where only the characters and crimes are fiction! Dorothy Sayers even mentions the arrival of electric lighting in Gatehouse-of-Fleet, a modern innovation which never reached its station.

 

[MotCO]

Bradshaws July 1922 Railway Guide reveals the first Newcastle to London train departed Thirsk at 08.56, arriving Kings Cross at 1.35 pm. The last Kings Cross connection to Thirsk departed at 1.50pm reaching Thirsk with a change at York at 7.46 p/m. although a 2.25 pm departure from St Pancras could get you to Thirsk at 8.29 pm.

So, in short, in 1922 at least, not feasible!

I seem to remember, or assumed, that they always caught the 'early train' to London. Would 8.56 be 'early'?

 

[Gloster]

In 1910 there appears to have been a 6.38 a.m. from York that arrived in Kings Cross at 11.50 a.m. Going north there was the 5.45 p.m. from Kings Cross that got to York at 9.54 p.m. and an 8.00 p.m. that arrived at 11.38 p.m.

In 1922 from York there was a 7.40 a.m. that got you into Kings Cross at 11.50 a.m.; this appears to be a portion that was attached to a train from Bradford at Doncaster. Northbound the 5.35 p.m. got you into York at 9.27 p.m., while the 8.25 p.m. arrived at 12.59 a.m.

In both years there were also southbound night trains that called at York around 3 or 4 a.m.

The times might not really give enough for time for a casual trip to London, but a quick trip up to carry out some business or have a brief meeting with a solicitor would not have been too difficult.

 

[NER1621]

You all do seem to be making the assumption that Julian Fellowes actually researches the background to his hack writing. He’s an aristocrat-worshipping snob whose only objective is to proselytise that the world was a better place when the lower orders knew their place. Any historical accuracies in his works are purely coincidental!

 

[StoneRoad]

I'm currently restoring an 1870's NER "Private / Picnic Saloon" ...
I believe it to be the sort of carriage that could be hired / attached to a train "on demand"

Similarly, the Duke of Sutherland at Dunrobin Castle had both locomotive and private saloon ...


I'm not an expert on 1920s timetabling, but if Downton was set North of York, I very much doubt if "day trips" to London would have been practicable.

 

[simonw]

You all do seem to be making the assumption that Julian Fellowes actually researches the background to his hack writing. He’s an aristocrat-worshipping snob whose only objective is to proselytise that the world was a better place when the lower orders knew their place. Any historical accuracies in his works are purely coincidental!

Well yes

In 1910 there appears to have been a 6.38 a.m. from York that arrived in Kings Cross at 11.50 a.m. Going north there was the 5.45 p.m. from Kings Cross that got to York at 9.54 p.m. and an 8.00 p.m. that arrived at 11.38 p.m.

In 1922 from York there was a 7.40 a.m. that got you into Kings Cross at 11.50 a.m.; this appears to be a portion that was attached to a train from Bradford at Doncaster. Northbound the 5.35 p.m. got you into York at 9.27 p.m., while the 8.25 p.m. arrived at 12.59 a.m.

In both years there were also southbound night trains that called at York around 3 or 4 a.m.

The times might not really give enough for time for a casual trip to London, but a quick trip up to carry out some business or have a brief meeting with a solicitor would not have been too difficult.

More likely the solicitor would have been instructed to attend the house.

 

[Gloster]

You all do seem to be making the assumption that Julian Fellowes actually researches the background to his hack writing. He’s an aristocrat-worshipping snob whose only objective is to proselytise that the world was a better place when the lower orders knew their place. Any historical accuracies in his works are purely coincidental!

I think we have had discussions before on this forum about how inaccurate TV companies are. They range from ones that are basically accurate, but make changes to fit the plot or the budget, to unbelievably inaccurate howlers.

 

[SteveM70]

You all do seem to be making the assumption that Julian Fellowes actually researches the background to his hack writing. He’s an aristocrat-worshipping snob whose only objective is to proselytise that the world was a better place when the lower orders knew their place. Any historical accuracies in his works are purely coincidental!

He’ll have meticulously researched the second footman’s uniform and the design of the fish knives though. It’s just the stuff in the wider world he can’t be bothered with

 

[DarloRich]

You all do seem to be making the assumption that Julian Fellowes actually researches the background to his hack writing. He’s an aristocrat-worshipping snob whose only objective is to proselytise that the world was a better place when the lower orders knew their place. Any historical accuracies in his works are purely coincidental!

I mean, well, obviously! The characters lived through the Great War. One oik was offed and one aristo winged. Hardly realistic.

It’s just the stuff in the wider world he can’t be bothered with

it is close enough that real world peopel wont notice the problems.