Drinking alcohol on a station platform - is it permitted?

[HSP 2]

I have always under stood that you can drink on platforms, unless that prominent notices are displayed and not just one at the entrance to the station, due to people changing trains.

 

[Watershed]

The general principle is that alcohol can be brought onto the railway, and consumed, unless there are specific local restrictions stating otherwise.

In most cases, reasonable notice must be given of any restrictions. Reasonable notice would typically mean a written notice, announcement or verbal instructions.

However, this doesn't apply where there are Byelaws which impose general restrictions on alcohol - for example the Merseyrail and TfL Railway Byelaws apply a general ban on consuming alcohol, and on possessing open containers of alcohol (though arguably not on TfL Rail or London Overground*). Here no notice would be required to prosecute you for drinking.

Local authorities can impose Public Spaces Protection Orders (PSPOs), including on railway premises (as they are public places and thus within the remit of PSPOs). However, it is only an offence to comply with an alcohol related PSPO restriction if you are asked by a police officer or authorised person to stop drinking, or to hand over your alcohol. You must also be warned that it is an offence to fail to comply. Alcohol restrictions also cannot apply to licensed premises (pubs etc.), for obvious reasons!

There is of course the general offence of wilfully trespassing on the railways, from the wonderfully ancient section 16 of the Railway Regulation Act 1840, which remains in force to the present day!

This means that, even though you were not breaking any Byelaws by drinking on the railway in the first place, if the large man was an authorised member of railway staff, he was entitled to require you to leave the railway (for refusing to stop drinking), and it would have been an offence to refuse to comply.

*The TfL Railway Byelaws are said to apply to the "railway", which is defined as:

(a) the railways and railway premises of Transport for London and any of its subsidiaries including any train, other vehicle, station, depot, track and any associated equipment; and
(b) any train, or other vehicle and any associated equipment which is for the time being used by a person or body for the purposes of providing railway services under an agreement with Transport for London or any of its subsidiaries;

There is a clear distinction drawn between "premises of [TfL] and any of its subsidiaries" in paragraph (a), which applies to the Underground by virtue of London Underground Limited being owned (via a holding company) by TfL, and "any train ... which is is for the time being used by a ... body for the purposes of providing railway services under an agreement with [TfL] or any of its subsidiaries" in paragraph (b), which would apply to TfL Rail for example, as it is operated under an agreement with MTR Corporation (Crossrail) Limited, similarly for London Overground which is operated under an agreement with Arriva Rail London Limited.

This leads me to believe that TfL Rail and London Overground stations don't fall within (a) and thus aren't included in the general TfL alcohol ban.

 

[tbwbear]

This means that, even though you were not breaking any Byelaws by drinking on the railway in the first place, if the large man was an authorised member of railway staff, he was entitled to require you to leave the railway (for refusing to stop drinking), and it would have been an offence to refuse to comply.

But surely that means that an "authorised member of railway staff" (what does that mean ?) can ask you to leave the railway for any reason he/she likes...

Surely that cannot be ?

Example - There are no Byelaws against drinking and there are no Byelaws against wearing red sweaters. So, can an authorised member of railway staff ask me to leave a station if I don't take off my sweater - assuming he doesnt like it ?

Surely the law has to be there in the first place. Not just the opinon of someone in authority ?

If I were the OP - I would consider reporting the large guy on the grounds that his behavour is discouraging travel, and probably even hindering the real police in their duties by falsely "presenting" authority.

 

[43066]

This means that, even though you were not breaking any Byelaws by drinking on the railway in the first place, if the large man was an authorised member of railway staff, he was entitled to require you to leave the railway (for refusing to stop drinking), and it would have been an offence to refuse to comply.

As a member of staff (or a contractor) he is authorised to ask people to leave but this should only ever be done for a good reason (for example if someone is behaving in a dangerous way, causing a distraction, intoxicated etc). Members of staff absolutely should not be making up rules in order to bully members of the public they’ve taken a dislike to, I say that as a member of railstaff myself.

In this situation I would never advise any kind of outright refusal to do as instructed, but I would certainly encourage someone in the OP’s situation to politely take things further, perhaps by asking to speak to a supervisor.

 

[Butts]

One of Scotrails plethora of announcements heard at Falkirk Grahamston at the moment is a ban on drinking onboard or at Stations, I believe this extends to the full Network.

 

[stuartl]

Same as Sheffield and Doncaster. I think that Crewe may as well.

To the OP when you next go to the same station have a look around to see if there are any notices to say no alcohol to be consumed on this station.

I seem to rember that at Doncaster there was a sign saying that you couldn't take drinks beyond the fenced off area outside the pub door that opened onto the platform. Was well over a year though so might have got it wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Example - There are no Byelaws against drinking and there are no Byelaws against wearing red sweaters. So, can an authorised member of railway staff ask me to leave a station if I don't take off my sweater - assuming he doesnt like it ?

Surely the law has to be there in the first place. Not just the opinon of someone in authority ?

If I were the OP - I would consider reporting the large guy on the grounds that his behavour is discouraging travel, and probably even hindering the real police in their duties by falsely
"presenting" authority.

If I am understanding this correctly:
1. If you are asked to leave for any reason at all, however unreasonable, if you fail to do so you are committing an offence.
2. If a member of staff asks someone to leave for a reason that is not company policy (or worse, e.g. being racist/sexist/homophobic), it is likely they will be subject to disciplinary or legal action for having done so.

(2) unfortunately doesn't affect the legality of (1).

 

[Watershed]

But surely that means that an "authorised member of railway staff" (what does that mean ?) can ask you to leave the railway for any reason he/she likes...

Surely that cannot be ?

Example - There are no Byelaws against drinking and there are no Byelaws against wearing red sweaters. So, can an authorised member of railway staff ask me to leave a station if I don't take off my sweater - assuming he doesnt like it ?

Surely the law has to be there in the first place. Not just the opinon of someone in authority ?

If I were the OP - I would consider reporting the large guy on the grounds that his behavour is discouraging travel, and probably even hindering the real police in their duties by falsely "presenting" authority.

Ultimately, even if you have a contractual right to enter the railway (by virtue of holding a ticket), the railway remains private property which you can be told to leave by an agent of the landowner. It is then trespass if you remain, and in the case of the railway therefore a criminal offence. You would have to pursue any resultant breach of contract after the fact.

As a member of staff (or a contractor) he is authorised to ask people to leave but this should only ever be done for a good reason (for example if someone is behaving in a dangerous way, causing a distraction, intoxicated etc). Members of staff absolutely should not be making up rules in order to bully members of the public they’ve taken a dislike to, I say that as a member of railstaff myself.

In this situation I would never advise any kind of outright refusal to do as instructed, but I would certainly encourage someone in the OP’s situation to politely take things further, perhaps by asking to speak to a supervisor.

I quite agree that it's woeful customer service, but unfortunately the law isn't on your side so you are best off complying at the time and taking it up later.

 

[Dave W]

I seem to rember that at Doncaster there was a sign saying that you couldn't take drinks beyond the fenced off area outside the pub door that opened onto the platform. Was well over a year though so might have got it wrong.

This is a licensing issue over a "drinking on railway" issue though. When I drink at the Two Chairmen in Westminster (or any C London pub on a quiet street), I often see throngs of civil servants being asked to come out of the road as the pub's licence (and probably their pavement licence) doesn't extend that far. It has varying degrees of success but the one thing that always gets things moving is the Biffa lorry turning up at 1800 on a Thursday. One, the driver is quite aggressive with the horn; two, it stinks. Homeless guy across the way with his can of Special Brew is not bound by the pub manager's increasingly exasperated requests.

Equally, unless the station is subject to other byelaws, there'd be nothing stopping you sitting out on a platform with a can, but not a pint bought on the premises.

 

[tbwbear]

I quite agree that it's woeful customer service, but unfortunately the law isn't on your side so you are best off complying at the time and taking it up later.

Not picking a fight here - genuinely interested....

But how can complying with a totally unreasonable request and just taking it up later be sensible ?

If I refuse to stop drinking, refuse to take off my red sweater, or refuse cover to up my religious insignia - just because someone "in authority" doesn't like it and a constable is called - what happens ?

Surely the jobsworth is in trouble himself for wasting police time ? Drinking is lawful, (as in the OP's example) the request to stop is unreasonable. These guys need to be trained on that surely?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not picking a fight here - genuinely interested....

But how can complying with a totally unreasonable request and just taking it up later be sensible ?

If I refuse to stop drinking, refuse to take off my red sweater, or refuse cover to up my religious insignia - just because someone "in authority" doesn't like it and a constable is called - what happens ?

Surely the jobsworth is in trouble himself for wasting police time ? Drinking is lawful, (as in the OP's example) the request to stop is unreasonable. These guys need to be trained on that surely?

Because trespass on the railway is an offence, and so if you don't leave when asked to do so, whatever the reason, you have committed an offence regardless of the rights and wrongs of the rest of the situation.

The authorised member of staff who, against company policy, asked you to leave, has merely rendered them liable to disciplinary action for breaching company policy.

 

[43066]

Not picking a fight here - genuinely interested....

But how can complying with a totally unreasonable request and just taking it up later be sensible ?

If I refuse to stop drinking, refuse to take off my red sweater, or refuse cover up my religious insignia - just because someone "in authority" doesnt like it and a constable is called - what happens ?

Surely the jobsworth is in trouble himself for wasting police time ? Drinking is lawful the request to stop is unreasonable. These guys need to be trained on that surely?

If it reaches the stage of rail staff asking you to leave and you refusing the usual pattern is that BTP will be called, they will also ask you to leave and then arrest you if you fail to do so. The whys and wherefores won’t matter (and rightly so in the vast majority of cases).

For this reason, as I said above, I’d never advise outright refusal, or being confrontational. If you’re challenged by a staff member who you feel is being unreasonable then comply with their instruction, but also immediately ask to speak to their supervisor. If someone is just throwing their weight around this will concentrate their mind.

And yes it goes without saying that a member of staff who makes things up and behaves unreasonably will be dealt with. Sadly the recent influx of contractor staff who seem to think they are nightclub bouncers hasn’t helped matters... But that’s an entirely separate debate!

 

[matt_world2004]

The tfl website says that the tfl railway byelaws apply to London Overground services as well

The TfL Railway Byelaws were made under paragraph 26 of Schedule 11 to the Greater London Authority Act 1999 and were confirmed by authority of the Secretary of State for Transport on 6 September 2011.

The TfL Railway Byelaws apply to London Underground, Docklands Light Railway and London Overground services and regulate the use and working of, and travel on, the railway and railway premises and the conduct of all people while on those premises. Railway services operated by other train operating companies are subject to the National Railway Byelaws, a copy of which can be obtained from the relevant operators

Byelaws

The TfL Railway Byelaws regulate the use and working of, and travel on, the railway and railway premises and the conduct of all people while on those premises

tfl.gov.uk

By arguing the byelaw doesn't apply on TfL contracted services. You could argue that it is legal to drink on buses and it is most certainly not

 

[tbwbear]

The authorised member of staff who, against company policy, asked you to leave, has merely rendered them liable to disciplinary action for breaching company policy.

Exactly - which is why in the OP's situation now, I wouldn't leave it until next time - I would probably be writing a letter to Northern Rail to complain about what really amounts to a form of bullying. At the very least the guy is confused and ill informed.

I would have a lot of confidence in the police (based on experience and observation) in the situation. The police themselves would obviously not have asked the OP to stop drinking in the first place. I would have confidence that they would make the right call when confronted with the situation where someone "in authority" has made up a reason to ask someone to leave and the person has politely refused to leave thinking (correctly) what he is doing is lawful. And we are talking about 1 can of beer whilst waiting for a train.

So, yes, I agree with the "call the supervisor" advice, but I would also ask them to consider calling a constable too.

"Leaving it" means these people get away with it.

 

[HSP 2]

Could I please ask the OP what the station was, as it's in my sort of patch that I travel around.

 

[Watershed]

The tfl website says that the tfl railway byelaws apply to London Overground services as well

Quite right - they clearly apply on contracted rail services (LO & TfL Rail). But it is the question of stations managed by TfL concessions that is thornier - particularly since several such stations have non-TfL TOCs that call there.

Byelaws

The TfL Railway Byelaws regulate the use and working of, and travel on, the railway and railway premises and the conduct of all people while on those premises

tfl.gov.uk

By arguing the byelaw doesn't apply on TfL contracted services. You could argue that it is legal to drink on buses and it is most certainly not

The situation with buses is different - they're not covered by the TfL Railway Byelaws. They are instead covered by the Public Service Vehicles (Conduct) Regulations.

 

[Sprinter107]

I got shouted at by the conductor on the tram. I was drinking a can of coke, cos it was a boiling hot day, the can happened to be white, as it was a Waitrose own brand can. He shouted at me about did I not know alcohol was banned on the tram, (I didnt), and I told him it was just plain coke. Took a bit to convince him. Some people's attitudes leave a bit to be desired. Id have been a lot happier if he'd cone over for a quiet word instead of shouting at me from halfway down the tram. So I can sympathise with the original poster, and the man in the flourescent jacket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I got shouted at by the conductor on the tram. I was drinking a can of coke, cos it was a boiling hot day, the can happened to be white, as it was a Waitrose own brand can. He shouted at me about did I not know alcohol was banned on the tram, (I didnt), and I told him it was just plain coke. Took a bit to convince him. Some people's attitudes leave a bit to be desired. Id have been a lot happier if he'd cone over for a quiet word instead of shouting at me from halfway down the tram. So I can sympathise with the original poster, and the man in the flourescent jacket.

There is and long has been an attitude problem in the UK private security industry (curiously the same industry in other European countries doesn't have anything like the same problem). It's a shame the railway makes so much use of them.

Contract security guards are fine for guarding stuff, where if you're even there you're in the wrong. But in customer service roles they are just awful.

 

[robbeech]

There is and long has been an attitude problem in the UK private security industry (curiously the same industry in other European countries doesn't have anything like the same problem). It's a shame the railway makes so much use of them.

Contract security guards are fine for guarding stuff, where if you're even there you're in the wrong. But in customer service roles they are just awful.

But it works well for the railway. The very forward, some may even say aggressive approach that many of them have is ideal for the railway as it always leans in their favour. Throwing someone out of the station for drinking has no real negative impact on them. If the passenger had a ticket, they will not have to carry them for the revenue they've already made, and if they didn't have a ticket they haven't lost.

It is the simplest and most common form of customer service on the railway, by contracted staff and full time staff working for the railway. it IS taught that way. If you're unsure, lean against the views of the passenger. It's most prominent in ticketing of course, is it valid or not? unsure? say it isn't and make them pay again, the worst that can happen is a refund, and 90% won't.

 

[route101]

In Scotland illegal to drink in a public place. Always been the case in Glasgow .

 

[Davester50]

In Scotland illegal to drink in a public place. Always been the case in Glasgow .

Only since 1996, and not everywhere. Only designated areas.

Two completely different areas. As you can see, there's public areas not covered.
Glasgow Council
Moray Bylaws

 

[takno]

One of Scotrails plethora of announcements heard at Falkirk Grahamston at the moment is a ban on drinking onboard or at Stations, I believe this extends to the full Network.

The Falkirk stations were subject to a local council alcohol ban 15 years ago. Haven't checked since then

Beyond that Sturgeon has imposed fairly wide-ranging bans on public drinking in Scotland during this lockdown. It's been fairly poorly-advertised however, so hardly anybody actually knows about it, let alone cares. Certainly I'm only going on some claims from Edinburgh Council and a half-memory of one of her January strops.

In Scotland illegal to drink in a public place. Always been the case in Glasgow .

Very much not the case in most of Scotland. It's only in some authorities, and even then usually only in specific designated areas.

 

[uww11x]

That guy wouldn't say anything if it was 20 football fans. Picking on a easy target I reckon.

 

[faltskog36abba]

In Scotland illegal to drink in a public place. Always been the case in Glasgow .

You are right, I was stopped at Glasgow Queen Street by the BTP -after getting of an Edinburgh train with a can in my hand.

 

[Davester50]

You are right, I was stopped at Glasgow Queen Street by the BTP -after getting of an Edinburgh train with a can in my hand.

It's not right though, as has been explained.
The Glasgow byelaws were introduced in 1996. In Edinburgh, it's permitted, save for the pandemic rules.

I wouldn't be surprised if the anti-drink government tried to make the pandemic prohibition rules permanent, particularly on board the trains they control.

 

[noddy1878]

If anyone here uses Untappd, you'll know there's a "badge" you can earn for checking in beer at railway stations or on trains. I'd like to earn one of those and then put my can in a bin (and then put on my mask)

I use Untappd and whilst I have enjoyed a beer whilst waiting for a train in the past, most of my station checkins have been whilst on the train. I just checkin to the nearest station i've passed through when it comes to checking in.

 

[Bevan Price]

Out of general interest, if you are approached by someone not wearing a recognisable railway uniform, are you allowed to request that they produce identification to confirm that they are "railway staff" ?

 

[185143]

Out of general interest, if you are approached by someone not wearing a recognisable railway uniform, are you allowed to request that they produce identification to confirm that they are "railway staff" ?

I see no reason why not. Other staff and Police certainly can do, and plain clothes revenue will identify themselves when speaking to a passenger.

On topic, I had an encounter in similar circumstances to the OP last year at a TPE station. It was in a polite enough manner to be fair and the security guy was happy enough for me to leave it and finish supping when onboard the train, which was going to be unlocked shortly anyway as it was departing in about 10 minutes.

 

[chris_in_salop]

I've read the whole thread and I'm still struggling to see what the problem is. Can't you just do as you're told?

 

[DelW]

I've read the whole thread and I'm still struggling to see what the problem is. Can't you just do as you're told?

Because we don't want ill-trained "security" staff to be allowed to invent their own rules and use them to harass passengers who are behaving lawfully on a station platform?