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Driver forgot to turn lights on?
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Dstock7080
Established Member
Staff Circular No. 33 1984 Operating of One Person Operated trains, states: “while in passenger service car lighting must remain on at all times”.
Well they weren't on when it arrived at Hammersmith, so presumably someone will have a tea no biscuits.
bluegoblin7
Established Member
Only if people go out of their way to highlight it.
It happens, it isn’t a big deal, and most drivers will realise anyway.
Threads like this turn an incident that wouldn’t even get logged into something far bigger. No one got hurt, and we’re all human.
If only enthusiasts were under the same scrutiny as staff…
Well I'm so sorry to upset your sensibilities. Good luck talking to my niece whose response to a similar incident years ago is that she will NEVER EVER go in an Underground train again. She often walks across town rather than take the tube. It is scary, especially if you're of a nervous disposition.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Why shouldn't it be highlighted?
It is clearly a safety issue the train is completely pitch black.
Are you saying that operational incidents should be covered up?
CarrotPie
Member
And why wouldn't they?
If the driver doesn't realise, that sounds like a big deal to me!
Do they? How?
Why should they be? They are not (acting as) employees of the railway.
bluegoblin7
Established Member
Because everyone is human, and therefore makes mistakes?
I’m not saying it isn’t an issue, but if it’s already been corrected (which the OP states it was) what is achieved by posting it for all to see? And if it isn’t realised, I’m sure a polite knock on the drivers window, or a word with station staff, will get it resolved immediately and everyone can carry on with their day.
But of course, no one posting here has ever made any mistakes ever in their life ever.
CarrotPie
Member
How does that justify their scrutiny?
At least you recognise it.
Given how many people have a mobile phone with a torch, I'm surprised the train wasn't brighter than normal.
Are you suggesting that such an occurrence should be logged/reported, but perhaps wouldn't have been?
What are you implying here?
If it's not something that needs to be logged, how can there be any issue?
I used to regularly travel on the eastern end of the Central Line in the 1980s and 90s and it seemed like standard practice to keep lights off on the open air sections in daylight. Sometimes the guard would wait until the rear car (where the guards position was) was in the tunnel after Leyton before switching on. It seemed fun and innocent then.
bramling
Veteran Member
I’d imagine that what has happened is either the driver has noticed of their own accord, someone has tapped on the door and drawn attention to it, or perhaps a report was made via station staff and a call made to the driver via control.
In the first two scenarios there’s no real need to log things. In the third then an entry would probably be made in the controller’s log book, purely as a record of the communications.
In all cases it’s very unlikely for further action to taken; nor required. Not sure what action people here would expect to happen?
Note that there seems to be an assumption the driver is at fault. There are defect scenarios on some LU stocks that can put parts of the train into total darkness. The 92 stock is notorious for it.
Thanks. So this thread isn't in any way going to make a difference; as I thought.
I'm not sure what turning it "far bigger" was meant to mean, but I assumed the suggestion was the driver may somehow get into trouble, which surprised me; I'm glad to hear that isn't the case.
You seem to imply that the 'official' procedure following an incident like this is disproportionate compared to the incident itself — this could well be true.
Yet you also seem to imply that it is reasonable to expect a passenger to know of this imbalance, and for them to participate in mitigating it — this is not realistic.
It is the role of Train Operators' representatives to address such an imbalance, so that situations that are publicly known may be publicly discussed without causing any upset.
Drivers makes mistakes all the time, some are on the bigger end of the scale and some are on the smaller end of the scale.
I have certainly run without interior lights until someone knocked on the cab door and told me. I switched the lights on and made an apology along the lines of "I'm sorry, that was completely my fault, I know it can be scary for some people, I'm sorry again" and carried on with my day.
There is an in-cab indication on the 73 Stock which should illuminate when the interior lights are not operative (but obviously won't if that bulb is blown). I would say most drivers should notice in a tunnel section if their interior lights were not illuminated as you can see the illumatuon on the tunnel walls.
(Picture shows the interior of a 73 stock cab, with the "Lights Off" indicator illuminated.)
I have certainly run without interior lights until someone knocked on the cab door and told me. I switched the lights on and made an apology along the lines of "I'm sorry, that was completely my fault, I know it can be scary for some people, I'm sorry again" and carried on with my day.
There is an in-cab indication on the 73 Stock which should illuminate when the interior lights are not operative (but obviously won't if that bulb is blown). I would say most drivers should notice in a tunnel section if their interior lights were not illuminated as you can see the illumatuon on the tunnel walls.
(Picture shows the interior of a 73 stock cab, with the "Lights Off" indicator illuminated.)
Dstock7080
Established Member
1973 Stock original TEP showed on/off indications and was difficult to interpret.
D Stock were the first to have only a clear “lights off” light placed near the driver which would shine brightly in dim conditions.
All subsequent new or refurbished Stock have the clearer indicator for showing the car lights being off.
D Stock were the first to have only a clear “lights off” light placed near the driver which would shine brightly in dim conditions.
All subsequent new or refurbished Stock have the clearer indicator for showing the car lights being off.
I would be quite concerned if the lights were off for a long period of time. Presumably the CCTV is not equipped with night-vision either, so it could theoretically pose a safety risk (although not really given nearly everyone has torches in phones nowadays).
What CCTV? There isn't any on the 73 Stock.
I was thinking in general rather than this specific situation - most other lines do, and the replacement stock will.
simple simon
Member
Same here
There was one journey where the guard was somewhat tardy in switching the lights on, this was travelling east and I was in the front car. So, for what was probably only seconds (but seemed longer) we were all in pitch back.
Because the lights had been switched off even the emergency lights were off.
It was an experience - no harm done - but not something I'd want to happen too often or for too long.
Dstock7080
Established Member
The Line Supplement and Appendix to the Rule Book allowed Guards to only have car lighting on at specified locations and in darkness.
On the District the flyunders at Barking and Chiswick Park were excluded.
On the District the flyunders at Barking and Chiswick Park were excluded.
I have always wondered why "checklists" are not used on Railways and other safety critical processes, such as those used on commercial aeroplanes (pre start/startup/etc). These checklists dont have to be complex, but just a step of things to do when starting a train for passenger use (and seperate ones for ECS), including things such as turn on cabin lights, etc. On newer stock they can be part of the Train management system with possible crosschecking capabilities, and on older stock just a clipboard and bunch of sheets.
I do understand the view by some that knowing what needs to be done is a sign of experience, but to repeat what was said, we are all human, and mistakes can be made, somethign that the Aviation industry painfully recognised in the past, and developed the comprehensive checklist system, that didnt care how experienced you are, but to follow that list.
As a software developer, I may not be in a "directly safety critical" industry, though some of what I do can effect safety indirectly, I still use checklists (called playbooks) for some things like deployment, despite being a highly experienced veteran, since any (we are human) mistake can result in huge reputational and commercial damage.
I do understand the view by some that knowing what needs to be done is a sign of experience, but to repeat what was said, we are all human, and mistakes can be made, somethign that the Aviation industry painfully recognised in the past, and developed the comprehensive checklist system, that didnt care how experienced you are, but to follow that list.
As a software developer, I may not be in a "directly safety critical" industry, though some of what I do can effect safety indirectly, I still use checklists (called playbooks) for some things like deployment, despite being a highly experienced veteran, since any (we are human) mistake can result in huge reputational and commercial damage.
Central
Member
Trains are prepped every 24 hrs by rolling stock staff.T/Ops also do a check on the train before leaving depot.
RJ
Established Member
Had that on a S7 once. Very strange experience and I let the driver know once the train reached the stop I was alighting at. He switched them on and that was that.
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