Driver Instructors: Does your employer provide you with an additional Driver Instructor's licence?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Economist

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2013
Messages
391
One career move which I've been encouraged to consider in the past few months is going for a Driver Instructor role. At my TOC, any incidents that occur whilst a Trainee is driving end up on the Instructor's one and only Train Driver Licence, these incidents are not recorded seperately. However, I've heard that at other TOCs/FOCs, Instructors are given a seperate Instructor's licence so that any incidents which occur whilst a Trainee is driving do not end up affected their Safety of the Line Record in the same way. Can you please share which approach you're most familiar with? Perhaps at some employers it works completely differently?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

ChrisTheRef

Established Member
Joined
15 Apr 2009
Messages
1,432
Location
South Liverpool
The actual driving licence doesn’t change at all.
Some TOCs may treat a DI who has had one incident instructing and one incident driving in a different way than they’d treat someone who’d both of the same incidents whilst driving (there’d be different factors in play and different NTS failures in all likelihood).
The short answer is no. An incident a DI has is reportable in exactly the same way whether they’re driving or instructing.
 

newtownmgr

Member
Joined
2 Jan 2011
Messages
239
WMT don’t do a different licence. You just get a different cab pass authorising you to instruct/assess once you’ve done the relevant courses.
 

choochoochoo

Member
Joined
6 Aug 2013
Messages
918
I think this puts a lot of good potential DIs off the role.

Especially as a lot of online job applications would automatically filter out candidates with poor driving records without the opportunity to explain it was a training incident. It could restrict your future job opportunities.
 

driver9000

Established Member
Joined
13 Jan 2008
Messages
3,973
No I don't have an extra licence. In addition to my licence I hold a Green Cab Pass endorsed "Authorised to Instruct" and I hold full responsibility for any incident that occurs while a trainee is driving because until they qualify they don't hold a licence. I've never heard of a separate Instructor licence to take the hit from any incident.
 

Red Devil

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2016
Messages
231
Any incidents by a trainee under your instruction goes on your record.
Hence I'm on the ball with my trainees from the day they start to the day they leave me.
 

MichaelAMW

Member
Joined
18 Jun 2010
Messages
956
Do TOCs make that risk worth your while, or at least put arrangements in place that appreciate the limits of what you can reasonably do in that instructing role?
 

theironroad

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2014
Messages
3,632
Location
London
I believe SWR do have a separate system for recording and monitoring incidents but has been around a while and pre dates ETDL.

I don't think(would have to research) that incidents are recorded by the ORR against the ETDL, but would be held in TOC competence management system and would need declaration if moving TOC.
 

jimfrst

Member
Joined
10 Oct 2016
Messages
61
At c2c any incidents with a trainee go on your own license, you get a green cab pass to assess and instruct so it’s a risk instructing and you have to be on the ball all the time.
 

HeelBurton

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2014
Messages
221
Location
Neasden
I believe SWR do have a separate system for recording and monitoring incidents but has been around a while and pre dates ETDL.

I don't think(would have to research) that incidents are recorded by the ORR against the ETDL, but would be held in TOC competence management system and would need declaration if moving TOC.
Correct. I believe unless the system has changed, there’s a B10 and a B12...
 

Economist

Member
Joined
24 Feb 2013
Messages
391
Thank you all for the advice on this, the people who I'd heard mention a "seperate licence" presumably made a slight misinterpretation of the SWR system where any incidents affecting an instructor or stored on a different record. It all goes to show how the DI role seems to be underrated by the TOCs given the extra responsibility involved.
 

Flange Squeal

Member
Joined
17 Jul 2012
Messages
672
This is one of the main things that puts me off going for a DI role. Should I ever wish to relocate and move TOCs in the future, depending how they look at things, it could potentially count against me when I'm compared to any other applicants. There are some things a trainee might potentially do that I'm not sure you would always be able to react to quickly enough to prevent. A similar situation exists when a driver who has just "got their key" goes out route learning. Obviously the best way to learn a route is to actually drive and get a feel for it, and I was always thankful to drivers who let me do so when I was route learning, however that of course comes with its own risk for the driver as their kindness in letting you drive could backfire on them if you mess up and their record gets tainted.
 

HeelBurton

Member
Joined
10 Mar 2014
Messages
221
Location
Neasden
This is one of the main things that puts me off going for a DI role. Should I ever wish to relocate and move TOCs in the future, depending how they look at things, it could potentially count against me when I'm compared to any other applicants. There are some things a trainee might potentially do that I'm not sure you would always be able to react to quickly enough to prevent. A similar situation exists when a driver who has just "got their key" goes out route learning. Obviously the best way to learn a route is to actually drive and get a feel for it, and I was always thankful to drivers who let me do so when I was route learning, however that of course comes with its own risk for the driver as their kindness in letting you drive could backfire on them if you mess up and their record gets tainted.
I wouldn’t let it put you off. I left one TOC to another with a few things under my belt but that was trainee related and they understood. (Overshoot, stop short, TPWS approaching a speed restriction, was very marginal, grids set at 55 we was doing 55.3, and questionable wrong route)

From experience, it’s worse if it’s a driver route learning who is driving and then there’s an error made; rather than a trainee under instruction.
 

theironroad

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2014
Messages
3,632
Location
London
This is one of the main things that puts me off going for a DI role. Should I ever wish to relocate and move TOCs in the future, depending how they look at things, it could potentially count against me when I'm compared to any other applicants. There are some things a trainee might potentially do that I'm not sure you would always be able to react to quickly enough to prevent. A similar situation exists when a driver who has just "got their key" goes out route learning. Obviously the best way to learn a route is to actually drive and get a feel for it, and I was always thankful to drivers who let me do so when I was route learning, however that of course comes with its own risk for the driver as their kindness in letting you drive could backfire on them if you mess up and their record gets tainted.
I wouldn’t let it put you off. I left one TOC to another with a few things under my belt but that was trainee related and they understood. (Overshoot, stop short, TPWS approaching a speed restriction, was very marginal, grids set at 55 we was doing 55.3, and questionable wrong route)

From experience, it’s worse if it’s a driver route learning who is driving and then there’s an error made; rather than a trainee under instruction.

This is the reason I believe the route learning system needs reforming. It's all done on the basis of vague trust.

I do know some drivers won't let people drive unless they are from their depot or they know them somehow.

The idea that a route leaner can make a mistake and it sits on the booked driver's record is wrong, especially when there is zero training or otherwise for them.

It might have been a suitable system decades ago when some incidents weren't treated so harshly, but in this day and age when sneezing on approach to a red or any other incidents will be formally investigated and recorded then it's not suitable and need professional training.

There could be a parallel system to DIs, where drivers apply for and are trained as route trainers to teach/finesse route learning.
 

Stigy

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2009
Messages
4,396
I believe SWR do have a separate system for recording and monitoring incidents but has been around a while and pre dates ETDL.

I don't think(would have to research) that incidents are recorded by the ORR against the ETDL, but would be held in TOC competence management system and would need declaration if moving
This is the reason I believe the route learning system needs reforming. It's all done on the basis of vague trust.

I do know some drivers won't let people drive unless they are from their depot or they know them somehow.

The idea that a route leaner can make a mistake and it sits on the booked driver's record is wrong, especially when there is zero training or otherwise for them.

It might have been a suitable system decades ago when some incidents weren't treated so harshly, but in this day and age when sneezing on approach to a red or any other incidents will be formally investigated and recorded then it's not suitable and need professional training.

There could be a parallel system to DIs, where drivers apply for and are trained as route trainers to teach/finesse route learning.
I assumed if route learning, any incident would go on the learner’s licence, as they will presumably be a qualified driver?
 

theironroad

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2014
Messages
3,632
Location
London
I assumed if route learning, any incident would go on the learner’s licence, as they will presumably be a qualified driver?

They don't sign the route so the booked driver is fully responsible afaik.

I concede it's not cut and dry and have known the waters getting muddied during investigations.
 

Stigy

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2009
Messages
4,396
They don't sign the route so the booked driver is fully responsible afaik.

I concede it's not cut and dry and have known the waters getting muddied during investigations.
Interesting. I can see the point to an extent, as they’re being route conducted I assume, therefore any route based incident would be questionable?
 

387star

On Moderation
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
6,226
Thank you all for the advice on this, the people who I'd heard mention a "seperate licence" presumably made a slight misinterpretation of the SWR system where any incidents affecting an instructor or stored on a different record. It all goes to show how the DI role seems to be underrated by the TOCs given the extra responsibility involved.
It's what puts me off the role

I think you work for an intensive DOO TOC? The West Wickham incident left a sour taste
 

20atthemagnet

Member
Joined
1 Feb 2019
Messages
178
Location
England
Whats the average boost for being a mentor? 5%? 10?

That will vary massively on TOC. 2-3 hours per day extra whilst instructing is quite common amongst unsalaried minders/mentors. Some TOCs DI's are a completely different grade with their own salary, roster, however their duties can be a lot wider like taking Safety days and doing OTMR downloads.
 

4F89

Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
686
That will vary massively on TOC. 2-3 hours per day extra whilst instructing is quite common amongst unsalaried minders/mentors. Some TOCs DI's are a completely different grade with their own salary, roster, however their duties can be a lot wider like taking Safety days and doing OTMR downloads.
Doesn't seem worth the aggro
 

Stigy

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2009
Messages
4,396
Doesn't seem worth the aggro
It’s only aggro if a trainee/DI cocks up. I’ve never heard of any trainee being that bad that they literally couldn’t control a train (not to say it’s never happened though), and anything else should be able to be intercepted by an instructor of the right aptitude I guess?
 

4F89

Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
686
It’s only aggro if a trainee/DI cocks up. I’ve never heard of any trainee being that bad that they literally couldn’t control a train (not to say it’s never happened though), and anything else should be able to be intercepted by an instructor of the right aptitude I guess?
I've heard of one who was absolutely shocking. But for a few G to have that risk... I'd rather do the rest days
 

dctraindriver

Member
Joined
9 Jan 2017
Messages
409
It’s only aggro if a trainee/DI cocks up. I’ve never heard of any trainee being that bad that they literally couldn’t control a train (not to say it’s never happened though), and anything else should be able to be intercepted by an instructor of the right aptitude I guess?
Wait till you’ve been around on this grade for a while. You’ll soon hear some horror stories. And don’t forget it’s not just trainees that can be agro. There are quite a few qualified drivers more of the male variety who are an utter ball ache on assessments because they cannot accept constructive advice from a DI whose doing an assessment in relation to keeping safe and incident free. Bad habits form and some don’t even recognise it. It can be a challenging role. Rewarding but sometimes just an utter pain.
 

Stigy

Established Member
Joined
6 Nov 2009
Messages
4,396
Wait till you’ve been around on this grade for a while. You’ll soon hear some horror stories. And don’t forget it’s not just trainees that can be agro. There are quite a few qualified drivers more of the male variety who are an utter ball ache on assessments because they cannot accept constructive advice from a DI whose doing an assessment in relation to keeping safe and incident free. Bad habits form and some don’t even recognise it. It can be a challenging role. Rewarding but sometimes just an utter pain.

Good points of course. I’ve also heard a few instances of DIs being DIs when they really shouldn’t be. I know of one trainee who was belittled and bullied by a DI which, as well as being wholly unprofessional, could in turn make him vulnerable to incidents during training.
 

4F89

Member
Joined
17 Aug 2018
Messages
686
Good points of course. I’ve also heard a few instances of DIs being DIs when they really shouldn’t be. I know of one trainee who was belittled and bullied by a DI which, as well as being wholly unprofessional, could in turn make him vulnerable to incidents during training.
Yeah, one of my instructors was somewhat condescending at the tail end of my hours. Trying to teach me things that I'd been doing for 230 hours, triple explaining what will be coming up. A good DI for just starting driving, but poor form for nearly done. Luckily I didnt have him for long.
 

Efini92

Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
528
Good points of course. I’ve also heard a few instances of DIs being DIs when they really shouldn’t be. I know of one trainee who was belittled and bullied by a DI which, as well as being wholly unprofessional, could in turn make him vulnerable to incidents during training.
I can think of a depot in the north west where 70% of the DI’s shouldn’t be instructing.
 

Red Devil

Member
Joined
6 Jan 2016
Messages
231
Whenever I have a trainee I try to create a conducive atmosphere to work in.
Everyone's different so this is different. What I want is people to come to work in a relaxed environment. Bullying, sarcasm and belittling does not create that. It's self defeating and achieves nothing.
You're spending more time with your trainee than your partner on a daily basis so why would you want to create a toxic environment?
 

FR510

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2020
Messages
26
Location
Kent
One career move which I've been encouraged to consider in the past few months is going for a Driver Instructor role. At my TOC, any incidents that occur whilst a Trainee is driving end up on the Instructor's one and only Train Driver Licence, these incidents are not recorded seperately. However, I've heard that at other TOCs/FOCs, Instructors are given a seperate Instructor's licence so that any incidents which occur whilst a Trainee is driving do not end up affected their Safety of the Line Record in the same way. Can you please share which approach you're most familiar with? Perhaps at some employers it works completely differently?
No separate licence at SE.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top