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Driver only operated trains External cameras

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JeffMersey

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When visiting my family in the south I noticed that nearly all the trains I got on were driver only operated with the external door cameras. I have afew queries to how they work ? Are they constantly playing on the drivers monitor ? If so wouldn’t this use a lot of memory ? And when it pulls into a station does the driver choose which side of the trains cameras to be displayed ? Or are they only activated once arrived onto the platform ?
I am a retired merseyrail driver and just wasn’t sure if this whole new technology is really efficient?
 
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aleggatta

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When visiting my family in the south I noticed that nearly all the trains I got on were driver only operated with the external door cameras. I have afew queries to how they work ? Are they constantly playing on the drivers monitor ? If so wouldn’t this use a lot of memory ? And when it pulls into a station does the driver choose which side of the trains cameras to be displayed ? Or are they only activated once arrived onto the platform ?
I am a retired merseyrail driver and just wasn’t sure if this whole new technology is really efficient?
depending on the stock depends on the specific system that is being used, however most operate in largely similar ways. upon door release a driver has two monitors that each display a 3x2 grid of camera images, allowing a maximum of 12 separate images to be displayed (one per coach). The images displayed are linked to the requested door release so you only see the released side. Once the door close sequence is completed the monitors will turn off, I believe once the unit starts moving (but can't be sure as I only had depot use!). The modern systems have a DVR on each unit and record all the camera images, allowing the hard drives to be taken if there is a PTI incident. 377s were in the process of having their system upgraded to allow the images to be recorded, 387s and 700s recorded live images from new I believe, but do not record whist the train is in motion to save disk space.
 

JeffMersey

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Ah ok , that makes more sense then if they are activated by the door release. I imagined that they were playing the whole journey on the drivers monitor. Thanks for the reply , sometimes I am cynical of new technology but I have to learn to move with the time’s haha .
 

6Gman

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depending on the stock depends on the specific system that is being used, however most operate in largely similar ways. upon door release a driver has two monitors that each display a 3x2 grid of camera images, allowing a maximum of 12 separate images to be displayed (one per coach). The images displayed are linked to the requested door release so you only see the released side. Once the door close sequence is completed the monitors will turn off, I believe once the unit starts moving (but can't be sure as I only had depot use!). The modern systems have a DVR on each unit and record all the camera images, allowing the hard drives to be taken if there is a PTI incident. 377s were in the process of having their system upgraded to allow the images to be recorded, 387s and 700s recorded live images from new I believe, but do not record whist the train is in motion to save disk space.

Bit concerned by that as it would mean that anything happening once the train is in motion would not be observed.

Is that the case? (I'm thinking the idiots who try to press the door buttons of departing trains)
 

D365

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When visiting my family in the south I noticed that nearly all the trains I got on were driver only operated with the external door cameras. I have afew queries to how they work ? Are they constantly playing on the drivers monitor ? If so wouldn’t this use a lot of memory ? And when it pulls into a station does the driver choose which side of the trains cameras to be displayed ? Or are they only activated once arrived onto the platform ?
I am a retired merseyrail driver and just wasn’t sure if this whole new technology is really efficient?

Ah ok , that makes more sense then if they are activated by the door release. I imagined that they were playing the whole journey on the drivers monitor. Thanks for the reply , sometimes I am cynical of new technology but I have to learn to move with the time’s haha .

I'm not sure exactly how the cameras operate, but CCTV systems are very well established, so I don't see there being any day-to-day reliability concerns.

With regards to your comment about the storage of recorded footage, high capacity hard drives are cheap as chips these days.
 

theking

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Bit concerned by that as it would mean that anything happening once the train is in motion would not be observed.

Is that the case? (I'm thinking the idiots who try to press the door buttons of departing trains)

Some stock turn off after the train reaches a set speed.

I believe some underground lines and crossrail have equipment connected to the platform and the cameras are extinguished once the rear of the trian has left the platform
 

Aictos

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The DOO cameras on the Class 700s are always recording 24/7 though, so even if the desk at either end is not live eg the driver doesn’t have their key in to make the desk live, the cameras are always recording.

Not too sure on the interior CCTV cameras though but the DOO cameras most definitely.
 

dk1

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On Stadlers the cameras disappear at 3mph. We need to be concentrating on what's going on ahead then rather than on the platform. No more distraction are needed.
 

Fincra5

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Bit concerned by that as it would mean that anything happening once the train is in motion would not be observed.

Is that the case? (I'm thinking the idiots who try to press the door buttons of departing trains)

On 377s as soon as power is established the cameras turn off. As pointed out, thats our station duties complete and we have to focus on the road ahead. Back when we had a guard, they would be able to watch the platform...

Personally once interlock is safely achieved. I watch the monitors (after checking the signal ofcourse) whilst I take power. Moving the handle to the desired notch, I hold the "Hill Start" until power is established and the montiors turn off.
 

DaveTM

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The 377s have it as a configuration option, whether the cameras go off when the driver selects power or when the train reaches X miles per hour. I would guess the other electrostar classes with cameras can also be configured in various ways.

Occasionally we get a unit straight out of maintenance where the configuration has been wrongly set and the cameras stay on after power has been taken. On the one hand, I like the idea of being able to stop if something happens before the train leaves the platform, on the other hand I found it blooming distracting and had to force myself to make a considered choice of where to look before starting my dispatch process. You do not want to be looking at the monitors as you leave the platform if, for instance, there is a signal on the end of the platform or a level crossing just after.

I've always thought it would make more sense for the conductor to be watching the monitors after the doors have been closed so he can stop the train if the passengers are revolting, while I can stop the train if the signal goes back or an idiot vaults the barrier.
 

philthetube

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Some stock turn off after the train reaches a set speed.

I believe some underground lines and crossrail have equipment connected to the platform and the cameras are extinguished once the rear of the trian has left the platform

Correct, but only on closed systems where there is no risk (in theory) of incidents happening ahead.
 

Fincra5

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The 377s have it as a configuration option, whether the cameras go off when the driver selects power or when the train reaches X miles per hour. I would guess the other electrostar classes with cameras can also be configured in various ways.

Occasionally we get a unit straight out of maintenance where the configuration has been wrongly set and the cameras stay on after power has been taken. On the one hand, I like the idea of being able to stop if something happens before the train leaves the platform, on the other hand I found it blooming distracting and had to force myself to make a considered choice of where to look before starting my dispatch process. You do not want to be looking at the monitors as you leave the platform if, for instance, there is a signal on the end of the platform or a level crossing just after.

I've always thought it would make more sense for the conductor to be watching the monitors after the doors have been closed so he can stop the train if the passengers are revolting, while I can stop the train if the signal goes back or an idiot vaults the barrier.

That's why I preferred a guard working on every train.. but we lost that battle on GTR. It has been known for a 377 to come back from maintenance with the Cameras staying on til 3 or 5mph which isn't agreed. SO the unit comes out of service. I think the LO Capitalstars do stay on until a certain speed.
 

Bletchleyite

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On 377s as soon as power is established the cameras turn off. As pointed out, thats our station duties complete and we have to focus on the road ahead. Back when we had a guard, they would be able to watch the platform...

...with less effectiveness than a passenger seated in the saloon, if they aren't dispatching from a droplight fitted cab. Very unlikely to see any kind of issue unless it is at or near their door.

Hence...for trains that are so fitted that are guard-operated, it would to me make sense for sets of monitors to be fitted at the guard's panel so they can do this effectively.
 

Snow1964

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That's why I preferred a guard working on every train.. but we lost that battle on GTR. It has been known for a 377 to come back from maintenance with the Cameras staying on til 3 or 5mph which isn't agreed. SO the unit comes out of service. I think the LO Capitalstars do stay on until a certain speed.

For clarity is it the cameras stay on, or the drivers monitor stays on

I could understand the cameras working until 3 or 5mph and recording (in case someone does something silly that needs to be checked afterwards), but driver probably doesn't need the distraction of watching train leave platform, so monitor is blanked when moving.
 

Fincra5

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For clarity is it the cameras stay on, or the drivers monitor stays on

I could understand the cameras working until 3 or 5mph and recording (in case someone does something silly that needs to be checked afterwards), but driver probably doesn't need the distraction of watching train leave platform, so monitor is blanked when moving.

AFAIK older 377s do NOT record the images when the cameras are on. These are activated when a Door Release is given (on the side it's given). The Monitors turn off when power is established (for SN side) so in theory the cameras are off too as they don't record.
 

Aictos

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Door cameras, or forward facing CCTV?

Door cameras, although I understand the screens in the cab turn off after the unit reaches a set speed.

I’m just going by what was explained to me.
 

theking

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For clarity is it the cameras stay on, or the drivers monitor stays on

I could understand the cameras working until 3 or 5mph and recording (in case someone does something silly that needs to be checked afterwards), but driver probably doesn't need the distraction of watching train leave platform, so monitor is blanked when moving.

The cameras stay on and the screen does and drivers are expected to monitor them until they extinguish.

Also all cameras are recording to the hard drive 24/7 that includes the saloon forward facing and all doo cameras.
 

Skoodle

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The cameras stay on and the screen does and drivers are expected to monitor them until they extinguish.
Also all cameras are recording to the hard drive 24/7 that includes the saloon forward facing and all doo cameras.

To add to this, on ours once doors are released we get a screen come up with CCTV of all our carriages. It's only from one end, however we still must be aware that we need to make sure that the white line is unbroken along the length of the screen. (White line on edge of platform). Once doors are closed and we start pulling away, we must make sure we are looking at the CCTV screens until they automatically turn off (after approx 4mph). Above this speed, all ability to look at cctv is disabled.

Whilst stopped, we have access to look at internal CCTV, and also pull up external CCTV if needed (bigger pictures, can see more of platform etc if needed).

All of the cameras on our trains are continuously recorded at 4fps, whether moving or not. They're continuously recorded until the data has to be overwritten. Obviously not going to give info on how long that is. However, if someone presses a PASSCOM, they're put in to EMERGENCY mode and cameras will start recording at 12fps until PASSCOM is reset.
 

Llama

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Door camera images within the leading cab on 195/331 units disappear as soon as the doors are closed by the guard. The images are generally quite good when the cameras work properly but they are often mis-oriented, fogged up, have water ingress, or have software issues causing blank/no image/frozen or corrupted image. I'm not familiar with DOO(P) but one thing that struck me was that the exterior door images are often reversed.

Any other images shown in the leading cab by the driver specifically accessing them (forward/reverse/pantograph/interior/door exteriors) disappear after starting away at about 14mph. Exterior camera view from the camera at the rear of the train is inhibited if reverse direction is selected by the driver.

If the TCMS is switched off (degraded operation) the camera feed is always live in the cab at any speed.

Any passenger emergency alarm/door egress/fire detection system activation can show the driver a feed from the nearest interior camera irrespective of train speed when selected by the driver. These also display the location (not a camera feed) on the interior screens to alert staff within the train.
 

DaveTM

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To add to this, on ours once doors are released we get a screen come up with CCTV of all our carriages. It's only from one end, however we still must be aware that we need to make sure that the white line is unbroken along the length of the screen. (White line on edge of platform). Once doors are closed and we start pulling away, we must make sure we are looking at the CCTV screens until they automatically turn off (after approx 4mph). Above this speed, all ability to look at cctv is disabled.

Whilst stopped, we have access to look at internal CCTV, and also pull up external CCTV if needed (bigger pictures, can see more of platform etc if needed).

All of the cameras on our trains are continuously recorded at 4fps, whether moving or not. They're continuously recorded until the data has to be overwritten. Obviously not going to give info on how long that is. However, if someone presses a PASSCOM, they're put in to EMERGENCY mode and cameras will start recording at 12fps until PASSCOM is reset.

Wow! As a driver I wish we had this level of information published regarding the operation of our TOC's units.

We've only just had hard disks put in to record the external CCTV; up until recently it was live action CCTV with no recording. I have no idea whether the hard disks are enabled yet or are still dead weight. I certainly have no idea as to the frame rates or even resolution. I also do not know if the hard disk recording cuts off at the same time that I lose vision on my monitors. If the recording continues after the monitors cut off I would like to think that there would at least be a flag on the recording to indicate the last frame displayed to the driver, but I suspect that that is probably not the case. Certainly this would be relevant in any court case where the driver is arguing "I didn't see the victim because the monitors cut off when I took power". I am led to believe that the cameras are still active between stations because of a rumour I've heard that a driver passing in the back cab of a unit was treated to a view of the world going by because some software bug left the monitors in the back cab activated!

At our TOC we still don't have the ability to bring up the external CCTV on our monitors when stationary without releasing doors even though the monitors are touchscreens. This would be really useful when stopped by a red at a station where we are not booked to call. The rule book says the driver must not move the train unless it is safe to do so, but the tools available to us do not allow us to ascertain if it is safe to move. The TOC tells us in training that if interlock has not been broken it must be safe to move, but we all know if you stop in a station, the drunks and the idiots and the partially sighted and the mobile phone zombies and every other man and his dog will all approach your train and try to open doors. There have been occasions in the past where drivers have been jailed for manslaughter when they have flagrantly ignored other parts of the rulebook. I hope I am not the driver who becomes the court test case when some drunk has been rolled between platform and train because the driver pulled away without the ability to check behind. "Yes your honour, I mincemeated Mr Jones because the management at my TOC said it could never happen", does not sound like a great defense to me.

To the original poster of the question, @JeffMersey , we've answered your question in many ways. But as always with traction questions, if there are two obvious ways of doing something, the manufacturers will have implemented it in at least 5 different ways. The one common thread I've found is that I've never yet found a driver who works with in-cab monitors who feels they are as good as someone with their head out the window.
 

SlimJim1694

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That's why I preferred a guard working on every train.. but we lost that battle on GTR. It has been known for a 377 to come back from maintenance with the Cameras staying on til 3 or 5mph which isn't agreed. SO the unit comes out of service. I think the LO Capitalstars do stay on until a certain speed.

with less effectiveness than a passenger seated in the saloon, if they aren't dispatching from a droplight fitted cab. Very unlikely to see any kind of issue unless it is at or near their door.

Hence...for trains that are so fitted that are guard-operated, it would to me make sense for sets of monitors to be fitted at

I could understand the cameras working until 3 or 5mph and recording (in case someone does something silly that needs to be checked afterwards), but driver probably doesn't need the distraction of watching train leave platform, so monitor is blanked when moving.

As I understand it and according to the rule book, once doors have been closed and interlock gained it's up to the driver to do a 'train safety check' before taking power. You have to individually look at each monitor before you move to check there is nobody trapped in the doors and nobody interfering with the PTI. Monitors turning off as soon as power is taken is the same as platform mounted DOO monitors where as soon as you move you can't see them. If some idiot wants to jump up on the door runners and surf the train after you've started moving then that is their lookout, but if that idiot was there when you were meant to be doing the train safety check and you took power anyway then that's on you. Of course it would be safer to have a guard looking out a droplight or looking at images while the train is leaving but that ship sailed 30-odd years ago and there is no way the powers that be will bring guards back on metro routes. In light of this, I'd much rather be looking at decent in cab images that turn off when you move rather than the grainy 1990s platform monitors we have now.

This talk about having monitors stay on for X number of seconds is not really feasible on a railway where you may have no station starting signal and a red just round the corner or any other manner of potential risks on the road ahead. DOO checks on the move could only distract from a drivers duties. I can understand it on the tube or crossrail where it might be ATO or they have different rules.
 
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