Driver Only Operation (DOO) - When will it arrive?

[tbtc]

I guess the long term nature of the benefits of DOO are also something that would put off a TOC from persuing it, as who is to say they will have the franchise that far down the line.

That's it - TOCs don't have long enough franchises to see the benefit of those kind of savings in twenty/thirty years time so they'll maintain staff term/conditions because its easier to.

If you were starting the railway from scratch, you wouldn't do things like they are, but then the same could be said of many "accepted" things!
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In my opinion this is the key to answering the OP's question. My answer is that the Guard grade will largely remain unchanged in most parts of the country, at least for as long as the current form of railway franchising exists. As tbtc points out, with the relative shortness of franchises, rocking the boat of the unions just isn't worth it financially, as either the costs won't have chance to be recouped during the course of the franchise or the financial benefits would be negligible and outweighed by the negative publicity/disruption. It's much easier to just shuffle the deck chairs about, give everything a fresh lick of paint (which IMO, is the best thing about privatisation) and ride out the course of the franchise.

For the reason above, I hope that the current system exists for the next 30 or so years, or long enough to see me through to retirement anyway! I don't really understand why the RMT and ASLEF chase renationalisation tbh, except for the benefits to the travelling public.

Agreed.

 

[Mojo]

In my opinion this is the key to answering the OP's question. My answer is that the Guard grade will largely remain unchanged in most parts of the country, at least for as long as the current form of railway franchising exists.

<snip>

Absolutely. There has been little incentive for franchisees to invest in DOO given the high costs and hassle they can expect (including possible breaches of franchise agreements should services be disrupted due to industrial action).

I think the arguments that the trade unions can put across is also a lot powerful. ''Look at them trying to cut our jobs to save the taxpayer money'' is a lot less convincing than ''Look at them trying to cut our jobs to boost their profits.''

Of course if the DfT really wants to push forward with DOO, they could mandate rollout of DOO on certain lines as part of agreements for any future franchises. This could then result in problems depending on how well the trade union relationship is managed. I'd imagine the Tocs wouldn't take too kindly to being penalised for breach of franchise agreements where trains do not run owing to industrial action brought about by DOO, but conversely with the right management and planning then 'damage limitation' can be done to avoid disruption.

 

[ainsworth74]

Can anyone shed any light on door protocol there please? Is it similiar to Voyagers?

As far as I'm aware they're identical.

 

[Lrd]

I don't think posting one sided arguments on message boards and passing them off as balanced answers is a good thing to do either.

Many apologies, I have been thinking about this thread for most of the day and realized that there is actually a lot more stuff a guard does, and your right the ticket collector can also do some/most of those duties.

My post was intended as a "quick summary" of the difference between the two, with the ticket collector doing everything the guard does apart from the door duties.

I am neither for or against DOO, there are plenty of well paid managers out there who get to work out the advantages and disadvantages etc.

 

[Tomnick]

As far as I'm aware they're identical.

TM opens and closes doors on Meridians - the Driver's only involvement is selecting how many doors are to be released on the SDO panel.

 

[ainsworth74]

TM opens and closes doors on Meridians - the Driver's only involvement is selecting how many doors are to be released on the SDO panel.

I stand corrected

 

[313103]

Of 6 UK tram systems, four (currently) use conductors, though one is phasing them out.

Birmingham, Blackpool, Nottingham and Sheffield all use conductors.
Croydon and London do not.

The DLR and Tyne & Wear Metro don't tend to get classed as 'tram' systems.

However... these are really only ticket inspectors rather than 'guards', so would technically be classed as DOO operation.

Slightly pedantic point but perhaps worth pointing out.

Croydon and London are one and the same thing.
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How many lines went over to DOO under BR? How many have gone to DOO since privatisation?.

Most DOO schemes were done under ownership of British Rail. The only schemes carried out since privitisation was c2c but that was after long battle with the RMT.

That does not mean that any other company have tried to do so. What the companies have done though is rather then say we will go DOO we will the situation where the Drivers open the doors, that way the company will argue that they already have a partial DOO method of working in alrready.
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What was the first DOO service on what is now National Rail?

The very first passenger DOO scheme was the Midland Electrics of 1984. The service from St Pancras and Moorgate to Bedford using class 317s. I remember as a young secondman seeing these units stored all around the midland main line.

However the scheme was only going to come in with no extra payment, however ASLEF seized on this and said if your saving money by getting rid of Guards we want something for Drivers, which they got eventually. DOO was sold to drivers on the principal your still in a job whilst the guards have not and your getting paid a little extra, so put up and shut up.
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I take it in many cases, if DOO is introduced, it will just be used to downgrade the guard's job to being a ticket collector which therefore would reduce their pay?

If they still have job doing a ticket collector that is, otherwise you are spot on.

 

[thelem]

With advances in technology its a lot easier for the driver to operate the doors - should we use improved technology to save money? It's a tricky thing to debate, because it's people's jobs.

It might sound insensitive, but I don't think the fact that it's people's jobs should be a factor in the discussion (other than how to keep the unions happy).

If it is decided that DOO is the way to go, then you'll find yourself with a certain number of excess guards. You can then offer all your guards (both new DOO and other routes) voluntary redundancy, and use the guards from the new DOO routes to cover the vacancies on the other routes. You can also encourage them to apply for other vacancies in the business.

If you've still got excess guards left after that, then simply employ them as ticket inspectors on DOO routes at a guards salary. It won't take long until natural employee churn means your staff numbers are reduced to the right level, without making any compulsory redundancies.

 

[2Dogbox]

This is an interesting question and one that I have been pondering for some time, especially since the McNaulty Report came out with its "default" DOO position.

Where I work in Lincolnshire I can imagine DOO would not be terribly easy to implement, and there would have to be a member of staff on board as 90% of the stations are unstaffed. You need someone on board to deal with the tickets and also help with passenger assistance, luggage, wheelchairs etc. But of course that could be done with DOO with the guard being downgraded to a ticket examiner or labelled as "on train customer service". Obviously then our pay would probably drop by a large amount. But when will it happen? I have no idea, nor do any of my colleagues or managers. I also have heard that ASLEF have some kind of agreement where they do not support any more DOO (I have no idea if this is true maybe someone could clarify this).

I would say all trains need to have 2 members of staff, and passengers want this as well from what they say to me when I'm going through the train and have a chat.

 

[Aictos]

This is an interesting question and one that I have been pondering for some time, especially since the McNaulty Report came out with its "default" DOO position.

Where I work in Lincolnshire I can imagine DOO would not be terribly easy to implement, and there would have to be a member of staff on board as 90% of the stations are unstaffed. You need someone on board to deal with the tickets and also help with passenger assistance, luggage, wheelchairs etc. But of course that could be done with DOO with the guard being downgraded to a ticket examiner or labelled as "on train customer service". Obviously then our pay would probably drop by a large amount. But when will it happen? I have no idea, nor do any of my colleagues or managers. I also have heard that ASLEF have some kind of agreement where they do not support any more DOO (I have no idea if this is true maybe someone could clarify this).

I would say all trains need to have 2 members of staff, and passengers want this as well from what they say to me when I'm going through the train and have a chat.

I quite agree, yesterday for example I used 3 Northern Rail services and 2 East Coast services - for a Inter City operation the guard didn't check any tickets at all between Leeds and Peterborough in fact it was pretty much DOO!

Now the Regional services I was on, the guard's came though after every stop checking tickets.

Now far from me to say but I fear it's the minority of guards who are not proactive who risk the grade being lost and having the guards who do work hard more at risk of DOO.

 

[yorkie]

the guard didn't check any tickets at all between Leeds and Peterborough in fact it was pretty much DOO!

Out of interest, what was the guard doing?

And DOO doesn't have anything to do with the checking of tickets, as you correctly identified regarding Strathclyde electric services! SWT inner suburban are not DOO but typically there will not be a ticket check (the guards are non-commercial).

 

[Aictos]

Out of interest, what was the guard doing?

And DOO doesn't have anything to do with the checking of tickets, as you correctly identified regarding Strathclyde electric services! SWT inner suburban are not DOO but typically there will not be a ticket check (the guards are non-commercial).

All the guard was doing was pre arrival announcements at the intermediate stations, welcoming onboard announcement after departure from said stations and dispatch duties ie the doors.

I can understand the guard not being able to check tickets with stops every few minutes but the train was not that full and standing to prevent some ticket checks being done!

 

[Mojo]

Of course the guard may have been checking tickets, but came across a customer without one and spent the journey dealing with this.

 

[HSTEd]

As to the DOO safety argument.....

How many accidents will result in the driver being killed, but still leave the cab signalling equipment reporting that the train is working fine and not trip the signalling system with regards to lines being blocked?

GSM-R will permit a system to be introduced that requires the train to report that it is working correctly every few seconds, if the GSM-R radio ceases to function correctly this will show in the signalling centre who can then take appropriate actions.

 

[yorkie]

All the guard was doing was pre arrival announcements at the intermediate stations, welcoming onboard announcement after departure from said stations and dispatch duties ie the doors.

But that does not answer the question What was the guard doing in between stations?

 

[Aictos]

Of course the guard may have been checking tickets, but came across a customer without one and spent the journey dealing with this.

What, 90 minutes dealing with one passenger - I saw the guard pass Coach D after Doncaster walking (not checking tickets) to the rear of the train and if anyone was wondering it was a Mk4 set.

But that does not answer the question What was the guard doing in between stations?

You tell me, as far as I was concerned it might as well have been a DOO service and that's coming from someone who's a firm supporter of having guards on trains.

 

[ainsworth74]

How many accidents will result in the driver being killed, but still leave the cab signalling equipment reporting that the train is working fine and not trip the signalling system with regards to lines being blocked?

I'm still waiting to hear from anyone how many accidents have needed the guard to lay emergency protection when it was absolutely required (for instance an opposite line was fouled but this was not detected by the signalling equipment) due to the driver being unavailable.

I've heard the suggestion that DOO is unsafe but can someone please tell me what accidents were exacerbated by their being no guard or which accidents were avoided/reduced in severity due to the presence of a guard?

I can only think of one and that's Clapham Junction where the guard laid emergency protection behind his train whilst the signal that should have been protecting his train was still showing a single yellow aspect. Any others?

 

[HSTEd]

I can only think of one and that's Clapham Junction where the guard laid emergency protection behind his train whilst the signal that should have been protecting his train was still showing a single yellow aspect. Any others?

I think I remember from my reading of the report that the emergency protection made no difference even there because the train driver stopped his train because he could see the line was blocked rather than because he saw the guard or heard detonators.

And that accident would not have happened anything like it did anyway today since the first train was hit because it stopped so the driver could communicate with the signaller on a track-side phone.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think I remember from my reading of the report that the emergency protection made no difference even there because the train driver stopped his train because he could see the line was blocked rather than because he saw the guard or heard detonators.

That's the train that had protection laid behind it, that it stopped before the accident site is more down to luck than anything as that signal was still showing yellow. Now we can't know if that protection would have made a difference it hadn't have been there but it's definitely a case where having a guard on board was important to enable the immediate laying of dets in a dangerous situation (that signal that should be protecting the train, still showing yellow).

 

[Jonny]

The trouble is that the RMT aren't going to like it because their members (predominantly guards) are going to become a lot less important, and their position weakened, if it does go through.

 

[island]

What, 90 minutes dealing with one passenger - I saw the guard pass Coach D after Doncaster walking (not checking tickets) to the rear of the train and if anyone was wondering it was a Mk4 set.

Not quite the same level but I was on an EDB-KGX train once and the guard spent from 20 minutes into the journey until the crew change at NCL writing UPFNs in the buffet car.

 

[tbtc]

It might sound insensitive, but I don't think the fact that it's people's jobs should be a factor in the discussion (other than how to keep the unions happy).

If it is decided that DOO is the way to go, then you'll find yourself with a certain number of excess guards. You can then offer all your guards (both new DOO and other routes) voluntary redundancy, and use the guards from the new DOO routes to cover the vacancies on the other routes. You can also encourage them to apply for other vacancies in the business.

If you've still got excess guards left after that, then simply employ them as ticket inspectors on DOO routes at a guards salary. It won't take long until natural employee churn means your staff numbers are reduced to the right level, without making any compulsory redundancies.

I'm just wary on here that an enthusiast's convictions could be seen as insensitive to those who's jobs he's discussing (which is why I try to avoid some of these discussions).

I wonder what the difference is between the typical cost to the employer for a "guard" (inc final salary pension contributions, PRIV travel, overtime for weekend work etc) and the kind of G4S "revenue collectors" that Northern employ (who won't have the perks)?
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Not quite the same level but I was on an EDB-KGX train once and the guard spent from 20 minutes into the journey until the crew change at NCL writing UPFNs in the buffet car.

In which case there's presumably a need for more than one member of staff on board to deal with "Revenue Collection" on some intercity services?

 

[the sniper]

I quite agree, yesterday for example I used 3 Northern Rail services and 2 East Coast services - for a Inter City operation the guard didn't check any tickets at all between Leeds and Peterborough in fact it was pretty much DOO!

Out of interest, what was the guard doing?

They might not have had a working Avantix, in which case there isn't much point in checking tickets. They might have been filling out a report/statement for an incident that they had been involved in on an earlier train. As island says, maybe they were filling out UPFNs? Perhaps they found a fault somewhere on the train while checking tickets, tried to fix the fault, gave up and rang the problem into control/maintenance and filled out the fault book? Or they might have been reading a particularly good book. Who knows?!

 

[Aictos]

I'm just wary on here that an enthusiast's convictions could be seen as insensitive to those who's jobs he's discussing (which is why I try to avoid some of these discussions).

I wonder what the difference is between the typical cost to the employer for a "guard" (inc final salary pension contributions, PRIV travel, overtime for weekend work etc) and the kind of G4S "revenue collectors" that Northern employ (who won't have the perks)?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


In which case there's presumably a need for more than one member of staff on board to deal with "Revenue Collection" on some intercity services?

I've been on some East Coast services and they've either had two guards working the train, one does tickets while the other works the train or they've had ticket examiners checking tickets while the guard works the train.

 

[yorkie]

You tell me

No, I wasn't on the train, and it is you who made the claim, so I was hoping you could tell me!

If you cannot say what the guard was doing, then you cannot say what he was not doing.

(Sorry if this sounds harsh, it's not meant to be, it's just that we get this a lot where people claim a guard did not do a ticket inspection when all the customer knows is that their particular coach - which would usually be one of 9 coaches in the case of EC - did not have a ticket inspection)

... far as I was concerned it might as well have been a DOO service .....

But if the definition of 'DOO' is visible ticket checks (which we all know it isn't!) then Strathclyde electrics would not be DOO, and SWT inner suburbans would be DOO In reality, the opposite is the case!

What, 90 minutes dealing with one passenger - I saw the guard pass Coach D after Doncaster walking (not checking tickets) to the rear of the train and if anyone was wondering it was a Mk4 set.

It could be 90 minutes over several passengers, but 90 minutes dealing with one passenger doesn't beat the record that I'm aware of!

...someone who's a firm supporter of having guards on trains.

My understanding is that we're both keen on having two members of staff on trains

(Though I believe the Strathclyde electrics model works well, and I believe the SWT inner suburban model does not work well)

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They might not have had a working Avantix, in which case there isn't much point in checking tickets. They might have been filling out a report/statement for an incident that they had been involved in on an earlier train. As island says, maybe they were filling out UPFNs? Perhaps they found a fault somewhere on the train while checking tickets, tried to fix the fault, gave up and rang the problem into control/maintenance and filled out the fault book?

Excellent post, and my point precisely!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

An easy way to say why Guards like myself are important for even the most basic safety of the line.

You have a 4 Track line

Your Train is derailed, front set on Making the Track Circuit
Rear Half Not only blocking the adjacent line but the line next to that
Your Line is showing occupied
The 2 next to you will be showing as normal

What lines do you protect 1st?
Sure you put your Track Circuit Clips down
But when do you think the next train will be using one of the lines that are blocked.
Experiece tells me we passed a train on the adjacent line 5 mins ago and there should not be one due for 20 mins
The 3rd line however may have a train due
You protect that line

or

You are at a Junction when you derail

Where is the next train coming from?

The point i am making is quite simply Tech can only solve a few problems, certainly alot of the time the Driver would be fine etc. etc.,

But not all the time

Now I am sure the usual arguments will kick in as always but honest opinions do not bother me (thats the idea of forums) lets just not turn a good thread into A staff bashing one

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Really? So dodgers prefer DOO Strathclyde trains to SWT inner suburbans with guards ?

I think not...

A pound for every time an S.W.T. Guard comes through doing tickets on a suburban train won't leave me out of pocket much.
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No more doo, cutting jobs costs lives. I fear it may try to get pushed in when Edinburgh to Glasgow queen street get wired.

How many live have been lost on trains between Bedford and Brighton since 1995?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My view, purely from a passenger point of view, is that on certain services it is not immediately obvious that there is a Guard on the train.

All I see is the driver and the doors opening/closing at stations. No sign of any other members of staff on the teain.

I accept that the suburban nature of the SWT network makes it complicated and that the door controls are often in the cab, but if roles were changed so that Drivers were responsible for operating the doors and the Guards had a more visible role, then passenger safety would be improved.

Simply being told that the "train manager" can be found in the middle of train is not much use when you've got a bunch of drunk yobbos in carriage 2 or 7.

The onboard staff need to be more visible.

Good heavens, you sound like me.
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I take it in many cases, if DOO is introduced, it will just be used to downgrade the guard's job to being a ticket collector which therefore would reduce their pay?

The Guard's job has been downgraded ever since the invention of block signalling. What you have to ask yourself is, "Why is the person in charge of a train referred to as a Guard". When you can answer that question you'll understand why the role of the train Guard has evolved into a superannuated conductor's role.
Someone in an earlier post asked about D.O.O. on S.W.T. suburbans. Well, the equipment was installed, the trains were equipped then Bonehead Bob stepped in, frightened everyone and the then weak management backed down and even - under union pressure - agreed to remove the station equipment.
D.O.O. will come in on S.W.T. one day, there is absolutely no requirement for a Guard to be sitting in the middle cab of an eight car E.M.U. telling people that, "I'm in the centre of this train if you need me" on lines that are T.C.B. signalled with G.S.M. radios. That person's job is to be swanning up and down the train being a visible presence.

 

[68000]

An easy way to say why Guards like myself are important for even the most basic safety of the line.

You have a 4 Track line

Your Train is derailed, front set on Making the Track Circuit
Rear Half Not only blocking the adjacent line but the line next to that
Your Line is showing occupied
The 2 next to you will be showing as normal

What lines do you protect 1st?
Sure you put your Track Circuit Clips down
But when do you think the next train will be using one of the lines that are blocked.
Experiece tells me we passed a train on the adjacent line 5 mins ago and there should not be one due for 20 mins
The 3rd line however may have a train due
You protect that line

or

You are at a Junction when you derail

Where is the next train coming from?

The point i am making is quite simply Tech can only solve a few problems, certainly alot of the time the Driver would be fine etc. etc.,

But not all the time

Now I am sure the usual arguments will kick in as always but honest opinions do not bother me (thats the idea of forums) lets just not turn a good thread into A staff bashing one

With GSM-R, you just press the red button and within 2 seconds, every train in the area will get an Emgency Stop command.

Much much quicker than someone deciding which line to protect and go to protect it

 

[313103]

Oh for heavens sack, just get rid of us, so i don't have to keep on hearing about how BAD SWT Guards are, so i don't have to keep seeing the justifications on wether to keep us or not, or how wonderful GSMR is.

I am not going to tell you what me job involes as it seems you know more then i do. I am sick and tired and past caring about justifying my job to all and sundry. Anyway when it goes DOO i will be out of it and hopefully with a nice pay check that will last me until i would have retired.

 

[HSTEd]

With GSM-R, you just press the red button and within 2 seconds, every train in the area will get an Emgency Stop command.

Much much quicker than someone deciding which line to protect and go to protect it

And if the cab is damaged to the point that the driver is disabled, it is highly likely that the GSM-R is damaged or will report the train as suffering a serious fault, which means it will not longer be reporting its presence correctly to the signalling centre.

Which means the signaller will likely push the red button himself and then order the nearest trains to proceed on sight to determine what exactly has occured, or will call the TOC service centre who can attempt to reach the train crew on an intercity train using mobile phones etc.

There is no need for a guard to go out and place track circuit clips, and indeed they would not serve any function once ERTMS Level 3/Regional finally works.