Driver Only Operation (DOO) - When will it arrive?

[thelem]

An easy way to say why Guards like myself are important for even the most basic safety of the line.

You have a 4 Track line

Your Train is derailed, front set on Making the Track Circuit
Rear Half Not only blocking the adjacent line but the line next to that
Your Line is showing occupied
The 2 next to you will be showing as normal

What lines do you protect 1st?[snip]

Lets take another example and say DOO has been banned you are a guard in the Thameslink core in 2015, your train has derailed and you are fouling both lines. Would you be able to protect against the trains that are 90 seconds away in each direction? Would a computer?

 

[313103]

Lets take another example and say DOO has been banned you are a guard in the Thameslink core in 2015, your train has derailed and you are fouling both lines. Would you be able to protect against the trains that are 90 seconds away in each direction? Would a computer?

Ok then lets get back to the real world because you know and i know that Guards will not be put back on trains that have been converted to DOO. So this hypothetical argument is now out of the way.

As an aside a computer can only do what man has told it to do. Computers are not self generating now are they?

As i said in my previous post i am not going to justify my job anymore so will not elaborate on your hypothetical problem above.

As i said on my last message 'Just get rid of us' then there will be no arguments about DOO, because eevrything will be DOO and then everyone who is not Guard will be happy!

 

[Monty]

A pound for every time an S.W.T. Guard comes through doing tickets on a suburban train won't leave me out of pocket much.

It's highly unlikely you would ever see a SWT guard sell tickets on suburban services as they are mainly non commercial turns. You'll see them every now and again but not on a regular basis.

Someone in an earlier post asked about D.O.O. on S.W.T. suburbans. Well, the equipment was installed, the trains were equipped then Bonehead Bob stepped in, frightened everyone and the then weak management backed down and even - under union pressure - agreed to remove the station equipment. D.O.O. will come in on S.W.T. one day, there is absolutely no requirement for a Guard to be sitting in the middle cab of an eight car E.M.U. telling people that, "I'm in the centre of this train if you need me" on lines that are T.C.B. signalled with G.S.M. radios. That person's job is to be swanning up and down the train being a visible presence.

Actually Bob had very little to do with the current working arrangements, BR tried to implement DOO in the 1980s but failed to do so successfully. Souter is no coward and if he really was prepared to make the grade redundant he would have done a long time ago.

If you feel so aggrieved that the guard dared not to patrol your train then report it (and quite rightly so) we are meant to be out there providing a presence and reassuring passengers. One would like to think with the reductions in platform and ticket office staff you lot would want to keep the guards on the trains for general inquiries and information.

While GSM-R may make emergency protection redundant its still good practice to have a competent personal onboard as well as the driver. An on board manager or ticket examiner who doesn't have a clue about track safety, train evacuation proceedures, conversing with a signaller/ECO or securing the train in the event of a division or even worse a drivers death, quite frankly is not.

Most of SWT's suburban or outer suburban services are eight to twelve coaches long, and you in excess of nearly a thousand people when the trains are full and standing. Are you telling me a driver is more than adequate to evacuate the train in an emergency? Personally speaking I don't think a driver and a guard is enough and once passengers start pulling the egress it's like hearding cats.

What may work with a three coach train in Strathclyde, may not work with a 12 coach train in and out of Waterloo. Now if one were hell bent on implementing DOO it may not be as simple as you may think. SWT's 455s have not long had a major refurbishment and they modified the coaches so the guard can perform a full door release from any coach in the train. To go DOO on them would require more work on them as the driver would have to get out of his seat and go into the vestibule behind the cab to release the doors. 458's as far as I can tell the driver would also need to get out of his chair depending on what side the platform is.

450/444s may also pose an issue, I had read that the reason 360s have no gangways is because the HSE were not happy with the visibility afforded to the drivers on the 350/450/444 units for DOO operation and since the 360s were designed to be DOO from the outset Siemens changed the cab design, if this is true SWT's Desiros may require significant work on them to get approval for DOO. Could someone whos is a little bit more clued up on Desiros shed any light on this?

Bottom line is though chaps, getting rid of guards will not make your tickets any cheaper and you've just gotten shot of an extra person who may well make a difference in the unlikely event of an emergency.

 

[thelem]

Ok then lets get back to the real world because you know and i know that Guards will not be put back on trains that have been converted to DOO. So this hypothetical argument is now out of the way.

They would if DOO was causing problems. By looking at a hypothetical example like this it's easier to evaluate which is the better system without having to consider what the existing guards will do.

 

[tbtc]

One would like to think with the reductions in platform and ticket office staff you lot would want to keep the guards on the trains for general inquiries and information

I'm not sure that anyone really wants to get rid of the second member of staff - my argument is more about whether the advances in train technology would allow the driver to assume responsibility for safety.

 

[Metroland]

Lets take another example and say DOO has been banned you are a guard in the Thameslink core in 2015, your train has derailed and you are fouling both lines. Would you be able to protect against the trains that are 90 seconds away in each direction? Would a computer?

Indeed, it's all very hypothetical. DOO requires continuous cab secure radio, full track circuiting etc. I would argue that is a lot safer than long sections of line with no track circuits, and no radio, the only way of stopping trains is for some middle aged bloke to start running as fast as he can with a bag full of explosives and flags. Traditionally, that's what a Guards job is, all from the days of absolute block signalling.

You could also argue it is better for a member of staff to stay on the train, and make announcements etc than to be running off protecting the train.

Most of the heavily trafficked lines around large conurbations are worked DOO, with no problems. I'd be more concerned in the depths of Lincolnshire where Victorian operating methods still take place.

The railways have been cutting staff for the last 100 years. You might was well argue we should be keeping wheel tappers, 1000s of mechanical signalboxes, 2 men in every cab, 20 people on each station platform. Fine, but we'd no longer have a railway, it would be too expensive.

The role of the guard is much diminished if non-existent in the days of full radio, fully track circuited lines, continuous brakes and other safety improvements. I understand people are sensitive about losing jobs, but the reality is these things take a long time to implement and it's doubtful there would be many, if any, compulsory redundancies.

 

[ChristopherJ]

I'd also argue the fact of how many people use elevators these days and happily go and up down a liftshaft with no operator or attendant onboard...? They was once common place and now it's all user operated.

[youtube]HzneS2461u0[/youtube]

"I'm stuck in the lift... right mate, this is the fish counter at Sainsburys"

 

[Monty]

Same could be said for civil airliners, would you get on a 747 with only a pilot. No co-pilot or flight engineer?

 

[wigwamman]

I think what Northern are doing around the new door procedure policy is the gaurd's biggest claim to keep the role a safety focused role in the future.
The amount of gaurds who put revenue before doing doors safely astounds me at times.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I think what Northern are doing around the new door procedure policy is the gaurd's biggest claim to keep the role a safety focused role in the future.
The amount of gaurds who put revenue before doing doors safely astounds me at times.

and when they are/if caught they will be punished as Northern will NOT take any chances whatsoever regarding doors (or the majority of safety for that matter). If you are caught doing the doors incorrectly you will either get a "suitable conversation" (Telling off) or Re-Trained (happens more than you would think) or Form 1'd or even worse sacked.

 

[island]

I was on a Northern pacer the other week and we were delayed by around a minute at one stop because the guard was doing tickets at the front when we got to the station. Then he forgot to turn the door control switch in the back panel (what's the point of that switch when you need a T-key to access the buttons anyhow?)

 

[wigwamman]

I was on a Northern pacer the other week and we were delayed by around a minute at one stop because the guard was doing tickets at the front when we got to the station. Then he forgot to turn the door control switch in the back panel (what's the point of that switch when you need a T-key to access the buttons anyhow?)

The point of the dks switch is that when it is turned to off,the doors are de- energized,I have been told when being assessed that it's important to key to out after completing door duties as Northern have suffered a lot of doors open in traffic due to the switch being left keyed in while in traffic.

 

[The Barlow Boy]

Oh for heavens sack, just get rid of us, so i don't have to keep on hearing about how BAD SWT Guards are, so i don't have to keep seeing the justifications on wether to keep us or not, or how wonderful GSMR is.

It's not that S.W.T. Guards are bad, it's just that on inner suburban trains they're not deployed as they should be.

I am not going to tell you what me job involes as it seems you know more then i do. I am sick and tired and past caring about justifying my job to all and sundry. Anyway when it goes DOO i will be out of it and hopefully with a nice pay check that will last me until i would have retired.

.....

 

[exile]

Same could be said for civil airliners, would you get on a 747 with only a pilot. No co-pilot or flight engineer?

If anything happens to the pilot in the absence of anyone else who can fly, the plane will fly on automatic pilot till it runs out of fuel and will then crash. If anything happens to a bus driver the bus will crash. If anything happens to a train driver the train will stop automatically.

 

[notadriver]

If anything happens to the pilot in the absence of anyone else who can fly, the plane will fly on automatic pilot till it runs out of fuel and will then crash. If anything happens to a bus driver the bus will crash. If anything happens to a train driver the train will stop automatically.

There has to be two competent pilots on any commercial airliner before it can move. As for bus drivers, the fastest they can go is 62 mph and carry 100 people at most. Most people who drive a car would know how to stop a bus if the driver collapsed. A train carries far more people than a bus, far faster and the drivers cab is usually sealed off so it needs safety mechanisms to stop it if the driver collapses. The difference is any bus driver could move the bus to a safe location after the event. Only a train driver passed up to drive that route could move that train.

 

[Metroland]

Although unlike the road, the railway is a very controlled environment. A train driver is not out there on his own, he has people watching his movements at several locations, operating staff tend to be trained to a much higher standard than on the road with far more rules and regulations. Even airliners, once they are away from land areas are not to be monitored to the same degree. During accidents the public do not tend to sit there, instead dial 999. The emergency service operator tends to tell regional control, who then will ring the controlling signaller within minutes. Assuming any mishap has not caused damage to equipment or invoked the train long time in section procedures.

 

[Monty]

Although unlike the road, the railway is a very controlled environment. A train driver is not out there on his own, he has people watching his movements at several locations, operating staff tend to be trained to a much higher standard than on the road with far more rules and regulations. Even airliners, once they are away from land areas are not to be monitored to the same degree. During accidents the public do not tend to sit there, instead dial 999. The emergency service operator tends to tell regional control, who then will ring the controlling signaller within minutes. Assuming any mishap has not caused damage to equipment or invoked the train long time in section procedures.

Assuming anyone dials 999, in the event of an detrailment or something similar most passengers will be scared and disoriented. The first thing in running through their minds is to pull that egress and get off the train on to the track, a totally unsafe environment. Worse still if passengers start to panic, never underestimate the power of fear and how effective it is at incapacitating someone.

Speaking of which I know of fatalities where the drivers have suffered from shock and has been in no position to secure the train or converse with the signaller to inform them of the situation, or carry out any other safety critical roles. I also doubt the response would be within a matter of minutes either, it takes several minutes for a competant member of staff to relay a message to a signaller. Let alone a panicked member of the public who may not have a clue on whats going on, only for that message to be relayed by a third party.

 

[Metroland]

Drivers will normally hit the emergency alarm on the CSR at the first sign of trouble, and passengers do dial 999 in a the event of an emergency. If the DSD is also not worked, that will also send an emergency alarm.

Also I support two people being on a train, but the non-driver performing customer service duties and staying with passengers. There is nothing in any rules to stop him contacting the signaller/control, in fact the rules explicitly say to do so. With modern signalling you know where the train is, the on train staff doesn't specifically need route knowledge. Track circuit clips do not need to be applied if the signaller has been informed in any case, with modern communications it is almost always quicker.

 

[HSTEd]

Surely the GSM-R could be set up to report an emergency brake application, if the application is not released or a suitable all clear message transmitted by the driver in a set period of time... surely the red button message could be sent out by the signal control centre?

 

[Flamingo]

With modern signalling you know where the train is, the on train staff doesn't specifically need route knowledge. Track circuit clips do not need to be applied if the signaller has been informed in any case, with modern communications it is almost always quicker.

There are still large sections of the network where this does not apply

 

[ChristopherJ]

On the same subject, is it true that with Electrostars when an emergency brake is made the train automatically sends an e-mail to the inbox of the driver's manager? hock: Apparently this is correct for 376s - not sure about the rest of the E'star fleet...

If that's true - that's eefing scary!! Or am I being wound up...? Your own train grassing you up to a higher authority...

Given I know how easy it is to download real time information for just about anything at the click of a mouse these days - I wouldn't discard it as a false!

 

[notadriver]

There are still large sections of the network where this does not apply

Indeed I was watching a 'Red' video where an HST that hit a tree could not be accurately located.

 

[A-driver]

On the same subject, is it true that with Electrostars when an emergency brake is made the train automatically sends an e-mail to the inbox of the driver's manager? hock: Apparently this is correct for 376s - not sure about the rest of the E'star fleet...

If that's true - that's eefing scary!! Or am I being wound up...? Your own train grassing you up to a higher authority...

Given I know how easy it is to download real time information for just about anything at the click of a mouse these days - I wouldn't discard it as a false!

That is true but not as much of an issue as people think. I would never hesitate to use the e brake for anything even if it's because I've lost concentration and forgotten to brake for a station etc. It's easier to explain why I used e brake than why I missed a station or signal.

If you don't have anything to hide then emailing your DM that you used the e brake is not an issue.

 

[notadriver]

On the same subject, is it true that with Electrostars when an emergency brake is made the train automatically sends an e-mail to the inbox of the driver's manager? hock: Apparently this is correct for 376s - not sure about the rest of the E'star fleet...

If that's true - that's eefing scary!! Or am I being wound up...? Your own train grassing you up to a higher authority...

Given I know how easy it is to download real time information for just about anything at the click of a mouse these days - I wouldn't discard it as a false!

Nothing scary about that. I accept I'm being monitored all the time while at work. I feel it's part of what makes us true professionals. For example speeding is virtually non-existent in the railway world but common place on the roads for bus and lorry drivers.

I know that in some TOCs drivers can be monitored live with the data sent back in real time. I also believe having a brake demand automatically sends an alert. The emergency brake could be used for all sorts of reasons - including a static brake test while stationary so I don't believe an alert is sent out for that.

 

[Metroland]

Yep, everything is monitored on a modern train and is recorded and it can transmitted back in many cases. All phone calls are recorded. Everything in modern signal centres is also recorded, and can be monitored remotely. Managers can listened into phone calls, most have CCF in their offices where they can watch what is going on. I believe they can even do some of this from home.

 

[KA4C]

For example speeding is virtually non-existent in the railway world but common place on the roads for bus and lorry drivers.

As is ignoring red lights, driving whilst using a mobile, driving under the influence of drink / drugs, etc, etc, etc

 

[GB]

With modern signalling you know where the train is, the on train staff doesn't specifically need route knowledge.

That is not necessarily the case. With OTW areas you do not know exactly where the train is and the same can be said with routes that use axle counters.

RETB is the same, the signaller doesn't know exactly where the train is (only that it is between sections) and relies on driver route knowledge to inform him where he is if needs be.

Even with TCB and panels you might not know exactly where a train is...even more so if a train has completely derailed and the signaller is not looking at that particular part of the panel.

Track circuit clips do not need to be applied if the signaller has been informed in any case, with modern communications it is almost always quicker.

You cannot guarantee the signaller has been spoken to though unless you have spoken to him yourself. Laying TC clips in a TCB area is almost certainly a quicker means of immediate protection on trains not fitted with CSR.

 

[68000]

Surely the GSM-R could be set up to report an emergency brake application, if the application is not released or a suitable all clear message transmitted by the driver in a set period of time... surely the red button message could be sent out by the signal control centre?

GSM-R is set up to send a DSD alarm to the signaller even in emergency brake mode. To set up an Emergency Group Call which sends the Stop Command to trains in the area, the red button has to be pressed by someone in the cab. Alternatively, the rear cab GSM-R radio can be used or the signaller can set up the Emergency Group Call.

 

[Metroland]

That is not necessarily the case. With OTW areas you do not know exactly where the train is and the same can be said with routes that use axle counters.

RETB is the same, the signaller doesn't know exactly where the train is (only that it is between sections) and relies on driver route knowledge to inform him where he is if needs be.

Even with TCB and panels you might not know exactly where a train is...even more so if a train has completely derailed and the signaller is not looking at that particular part of the panel.



You cannot guarantee the signaller has been spoken to though unless you have spoken to him yourself. Laying TC clips in a TCB area is almost certainly a quicker means of immediate protection on trains not fitted with CSR.

Indeed, so. I am referring to areas that currently have DOO. Any areas they would need to be converted to run DOO would have to fit minimum requirements (CRS, full track circuiting etc).

 

[Skoodle]

On the same subject, is it true that with Electrostars when an emergency brake is made the train automatically sends an e-mail to the inbox of the driver's manager? hock: Apparently this is correct for 376s - not sure about the rest of the E'star fleet.

On a 378 it only reports if you use the Emergency plunger as far as I'm aware, not the TBC, as pressing the plunger activates a red fault message, the other way doesn't. The message is flashed up on Bombardier's "Orbita" system. As Bombardier and Control sit next to each other on the ELL, if there is anything that needs to be addressed then your Driver Manager will know about it within a couple of minutes.