Driver Only Operation (DOO) - When will it arrive?

[Flamingo]

Indeed I was watching a 'Red' video where an HST that hit a tree could not be accurately located.

Don't mention the war. I'm on my phone and can't add a link easily, but google the RAIB report for Lavingdon, and look at the pictures hock:hock:

 

[carriageline]

Nothing scary about that. I accept I'm being monitored all the time while at work. I feel it's part of what makes us true professionals. For example speeding is virtually non-existent in the railway world but common place on the roads for bus and lorry drivers.

I know that in some TOCs drivers can be monitored live with the data sent back in real time. I also believe having a brake demand automatically sends an alert. The emergency brake could be used for all sorts of reasons - including a static brake test while stationary so I don't believe an alert is sent out for that.

But train drivers are in a safety critical role. With such a blame culture that we live in, we have to have a paper trail of what happened where. Remember, with every near miss, there is an opportunity to stop a fatal accident. I'd rather drivers where always watched.

Your driving their trains, transporting their passengers, if things go wrong can cost them billions, with huge consequences/chance for loss of life. They have every right to monitor people

 

[ainsworth74]

Don't mention the war. I'm on my phone and can't add a link easily, but google the RAIB report for Lavingdon, and look at the pictures

Here you go.

 

[313103]

Here you go.

This incident is actually used in training and safety updates. I did mine about 6 months ago.

Communication and more importantly correct communication is what it is all about.

So we all learn a little bit after evry incident. I found this report to be very interesting and more or less acurate to the film they showed us.

 

[notadriver]

This incident is actually used in training and safety updates. I did mine about 6 months ago.

Communication and more importantly correct communication is what it is all about.

So we all learn a little bit after evry incident. I found this report to be very interesting and more or less acurate to the film they showed us.

I think to bring drivers and guards closer together - safety days or training days - whatever you want to call them should have a mix of drivers and conductors rather than just drivers. Good idea?

 

[Metroland]

This incident is actually used in training and safety updates. I did mine about 6 months ago.

Communication and more importantly correct communication is what it is all about.

So we all learn a little bit after evry incident. I found this report to be very interesting and more or less acurate to the film they showed us.

Yes a complete cock up in communication from start to finish. It's not the easiest bit of railway to report problems, it's a long section of automatic 3 aspect signals through rural countryside. The chocolate poodle bridge, named after a local pub, is one of the nearby landmarks, where the train stopped.

Nevertheless, it raises some interesting points. The driver should have contacted the signaller by the quickest means possible to get full protection (Rule book section M) He didn't even pick up the phone 200 yards away, on an automatic signal. He used his mobile, didn't have the right number, and when he got through to Westbury instead of TVSC didn't state it was an emergency call.

A guard was provided on this train, yet the exact whereabouts of the track wasn't known for 30 minutes - aside it was in a mile long signal section.

Let's say DOO was in operation - incidentally DOO operates just east of that point on 165/6 trains. The driver would have called on a cab secure radio through to the controlling box, probably using a emergency call, so minutes saved there, and the correct signal number would have been displayed - more minutes there. An emergency broadcast could have been made, to all trains in the area. Much of this applies to GSM-R which is being fitted nationwide.

If the driver had been injured or killed, there is nothing to prevent a conductor making a similar emergency call. Beyond that there's nothing to stop TOC's fitting all trains with GPS for pin-point accuracy. I think Northern rail did it on the Whitby branch.

While the train manger did put down a track circuiting clip, this would be no more effective than using GSM-R using an emergency broadcast.

In this case, the train crew took 26 minutes to make contact with the TVSC simply because it was worked the old fashioned way with Guards, SPTs (not always conveniently placed) etc.

So I'm not sure what the argument is? Surely modern radios, GPS, is the way to go?

 

[reb0118]

Indeed I was watching a 'Red' video where an HST that hit a tree could not be accurately located.

89 MP (approx), about a mile on from the former Lavington Station. The incident happened very close to the boundary between two signalling centres - Westbury & Thames Valley which added to the confusion.

 

[BestWestern]

A guard was provided on this train, yet the exact whereabouts of the track wasn't known for 30 minutes - aside it was in a mile long signal section.

Let's say DOO was in operation - incidentally DOO operates just east of that point on 165/6 trains. The driver would have called on a cab secure radio through to the controlling box, probably using a emergency call, so minutes saved there, and the correct signal number would have been displayed - more minutes there. An emergency broadcast could have been made, to all trains in the area. Much of this applies to GSM-R which is being fitted nationwide.

If the driver had been injured or killed, there is nothing to prevent a conductor making a similar emergency call. Beyond that there's nothing to stop TOC's fitting all trains with GPS for pin-point accuracy.

So I'm not sure what the argument is? Surely modern radios, GPS, is the way to go?

You have answered your own question :roll:

Ultimately there was clearly some degree of confusion with this incident, which meant that it was not handled as it should have been in the immediate aftermath. I agree that there are better systems available and that hitting a 'red button', which automatically offers all the required details of a location, is a clear advantage. However, this incident shows that no amount of in-cab tech can stop accidents from happening due to outside factors, which will always exist. Perhaps more importantly, it also shows that such incidents can still claim the life of the man sitting at the front of the train - the cab of the HST involved was completely demolished, and the Driver could very easily have been killed here. This will not be the last such incident either.

Let's say this accident had happened on DOO, which you seem to suggest would have been a better situation, with nobody but the Driver to deal with it. Let's say the Driver was not so lucky and had been taken out by the huge tree which tore through his cab. The train is stationary, going nowhere but still operating the track circuits. Even once the panel become aware the train is failing to make progress, how long does it take to get personnel out to, firstly, find the train, and secondly, establish the circumstances? In reality, a very long time indeed. The trainload of passengers however will take very little time to begin panicking, having heard an almighty bang and felt the accompanying jolt, and come to an abrupt halt in the middle of nowhere, left with no information or instruction. Forget the buffet staff or revenue bods, DOO justifies itself by saving wages, so let's assume it's just the Driver on board; it doesn't have to be an HST, could be a packed commuter service. Yes, the Signaller can patch through to the PA system, and talk to the passengers. And what on earth is he going to say?! "Ladies & Gents, I have absolutely no idea what has happened, does anybody fancy going to see if the Driver is alive?". I'm completely serious, what else could he say in such an instance really? You will have people running all over the track within seconds, assuming they aren't doing that already. And then how long before something comes the other way? How safe is that on an operational railway line?

The simple reality here is that the best radio kit going, with all the bells and whistles and 'red buttons' you like, is immediately useless if the only competent person on the train is not able to use it. It does not make up for having people on the scene, and it's a dangerous path to think it does. I do not fancy a busy train sat stranded in the wilderness on a main line, with the only trained safety critical member of staff crushed in the front cab and the passengers left to themselves

 

[GB]

Nevertheless, it raises some interesting points. The driver should have contacted the signaller by the quickest means possible to get full protection (Rule book section M) He didn't even pick up the phone 200 yards away, on an automatic signal. He used his mobile, didn't have the right number, and when he got through to Westbury instead of TVSC didn't state it was an emergency call.

It was the assisting driver that didn't use the SPT as he had agreed prior that the driver would contact the signaller. Given that the NRN was knocked out of use in the accident perhaps the driver thought at that moment in time it was actually quicker to use his mobile and used correctly it sometimes is.

Also, as the NRN was damaged, does is it not stand to reason that CSR might have also been damaged if it was fitted?

 

[Metroland]

Forget the buffet staff or revenue bods, |

Why? They would be issued with GSM-R radios, and can alert the controlling signaller to safety of the line issues. As far as I'm aware they are trained in first aid, customer service and train evacuation.

Passengers would not be on there own unless there was just the driver, and I've already said I don't agree with that. I'd prefer to see revenue protection/customer service staff on board doing ticket checks and getting rid of many of these barriers, then running up the line with flags etc

Besides, most of these new signalling schemes, and already quite large parts of the MML and WCML have axle counters, where track circuit clips are useless.

Safety critical just means "involved in train movements". But there's nothing to stop any member of staff raising the alarm.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Also, as the NRN was damaged, does is it not stand to reason that CSR might have also been damaged if it was fitted?

Possibly, we don't know. But this incident to my mind reinforces the need for radios for all staff rather than relying on old fashioned methods like track circuit operating clips and guards with flags and dets.

 

[GB]

If your radio has failed, is damaged, or is not accessible and you no longer have detonators, flags or TC clips what are you going to do?

They maybe old fashioned but they work.

 

[Metroland]

If your radio has failed, is damaged, or is not accessible and you no longer have detonators, flags or TC clips what are you going to do?

They maybe old fashioned but they work.

Not if they got lost or you can't get to them, besides track circuit clips are useless for the most part in an axle counter or absolute block area!

So all GSR-M radios are broke, all mobile phones are broken on the train, no on board staff can get to a SPT? Freak accident that one.

 

[GB]

Not if they got lost or you can't get to them and/or it was an axle counter or absolute block area!

Detonators and flags work perfectly well in AB and axle counter areas thanks :roll:

They are part of the train equipment and part of the train prep, so if they are missing the train doesn't enter service.

So all GSR-M radios are broke, all mobile phones are broken on the train, no on board staff can get to a SPT? Freak accident that one.

That little nugget confirms to be what everyone else has said about you, you haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

 

[Metroland]

That little nugget confirms to be what everyone else has said about you, you haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

It seems you don't either, and pretty ignorant and rude to boot.

Go and have a look at rule book section M, and stop clutching at straws, only a half-wit could argue running down the track with flags is safer than modern mobile communications.

I'm talking about flags/dets going missing or you can't get to them in a crash, there's a much chance of that as radio equipment getting broken.

 

[HSTEd]

It was the assisting driver that didn't use the SPT as he had agreed prior that the driver would contact the signaller. Given that the NRN was knocked out of use in the accident perhaps the driver thought at that moment in time it was actually quicker to use his mobile and used correctly it sometimes is.

Also, as the NRN was damaged, does is it not stand to reason that CSR might have also been damaged if it was fitted?

Surely the driver could have used the NRN/CSR in the rear power car?

Unless that was somehow disabled as well and you could just issue drivers with additional handheld GSM-R handsets like those that I understand could be issued to permanent way staff.

And as to the time it takes to get more staff to the scene... how long does it take for the next train behind it to reach the track circuit section and then reach the train using stop-and-proceed rules.

 

[Metroland]

Quite so!

 

[GB]

The point about TC clips, detonators and flags is about immediate and a last level of protection. Your precious technology is great when it is all working nicely, not quite so when it is not working or unavailable, which is the point you fail to grasp.

Yes a driver could run down the train to the other end, but placing a TC clip takes seconds (which he could do when proceeding to the other end). What then when he gets to the other end and finds the radio there is also not working?

Its already been pointed out that mobile phones can be very sketchy (as well as a god send) and its not inconceivable that the train is in the middle of a pretty large section. (just look at the length of sections on the GEML between Stowmarket, Diss and Norwich).


You call me ignorant and rude, fine. I'm not the one calling others half-wits.

Ive read section M, I don't think Id be in my current job if I hadn't, but perhaps you would like to advise me where I am clutching at straws?

You say use the SPT, but you are aware of course that detonators place a part here too?

 

[KA4C]

You call me ignorant and rude, fine. I'm not the one calling others half-wits.

That is symptomatic of his approach to everyone on here who disagrees with him, seems to be unable to deal with conflict

I wonder if he has had a warning for referring to people as half wits, does that not constitute insulting behaviour?

Read through most threads that he posts on, and see how many posters he argues with, has a problem with, seems to be a pattern?

In terms of the driver involved in Lavington (who I know personally), the guy was injured and very nearly killed, yet the keyboard warriors in here are in full flight, from the comfort of their computers, about how he could have handled the situation differently

 

[HSTEd]

The point about TC clips, detonators and flags is about immediate and a last level of protection. Your precious technology is great when it is all working nicely, not quite so when it is not working or unavailable, which is the point you fail to grasp.

But them not working also tells the signaller there is a problem.
Think about it, he has a train that was in a section a minute ago, but now is no longer on the GSM-R network and appears to have disappeared from his track circuit display. (And if the train is still appearing on the track circuit display the driver placing a TC clip is a pointless waste of time).
What does he do?
I'm pretty sure he would contact the drivers in the area and tell them to proceed slowly, "able to stop short of any obstruction", even if he doesn't just initiate the emergency group call to stop all trains himself.

As to flags and detonators, the amount of time it takes for the driver to run past the back of his own train and get far enough away from it to place detonators is far greater than that necessary to run to the back of the train, jump into the rear cab and use the GSM-R there, which since it has a UPS system, is highly unlikely to have been damaged.

And if this is a Sprinter/Turbostar lashup, he has several cabs to choose from that could provide the radio required, he could also just use a GSM-R handset (which definitely exist, as that was one of the reasons behind choosing GSM as the base protocol) that I would recommend that he carry on his person when on-duty.

If the driver is dead then he won't be able to communicate with the signaller but then all these other "low tech" tools will be absolutely useless.

Its already been pointed out that mobile phones can be very sketchy (as well as a god send) and its not inconceivable that the train is in the middle of a pretty large section. (just look at the length of sections on the GEML between Stowmarket, Diss and Norwich).

GSM-R use is predicated on there being coverage along the entire route, so assuming this is so is not unreasonable in my opinion.

 

[Metroland]

The point about TC clips, detonators and flags is about immediate and a last level of protection. Your precious technology is great when it is all working nicely, not quite so when it is not working or unavailable, which is the point you fail to grasp.

The railway is all technology, conceivably there can by any combination of events you cannot protect against. This is what I mean about clutching at straws, I can equally think of things where old fashioned dets and flags with guards won't work, or both the driver and guard get killed!

Yes, radios can fail, but the industry wouldn't be investing millions if it wasn't deemed reliable.

As I said, on virtually all new signalling schemes TC clips will be useless in any case! I'm surprised the RMT hasn't set up a campaign against them!

In short, the chances of no communication are slim (you can use any method).

Remember you do not have to carry out full emergency protection if you (or another competent person) can contact the signaller and he can stop trains.

Indeed, on the example you have given where there are long signal sections on the northern GEML (2 aspect signals placed quite some distance apart), I would prefer to have a radio back up than rely on the older methods. To run over a mile could take 10 minutes for quite a fit person, I wouldn't trust some of the guards I see on-board. You could be talking about 15 minutes before your protection is in place, versus a couple of minutes using radio communications.

In short, I just do not understand in the age of mobile communications, GPS, full track circuiting with MAS, continuous braking etc why we need Guards, it's complete out of date provided certain criteria are met. It's better just to fit modern equipment IMHO and have someone with access to emergency radio and performing customer service duties. If you are worried about positioning, use GPS.

I'm not the only one to think this, several studies have concluded it is no less safe.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I agree with a lot of the comments on here saying DOO is fine (not perfect but im not going to angry) but staff need to be on the train for ticket info and buying selling etc.

When i walk round marks and sparks etc etc theres always staff to ask, it should be the same on a railway.

 

[GB]

Think about it, he has a train that was in a section a minute ago, but now is no longer on the GSM-R network and appears to have disappeared from his track circuit display. (And if the train is still appearing on the track circuit display the driver placing a TC clip is a pointless waste of time).

Certainly not a waste of time as laying a TC clip on another line (in TCB land) can alert an on coming train (providing it hasn't already passed the signal that the TC clip with operate) that something is wrong.

As to flags and detonators, the amount of time it takes for the driver to run past the back of his own train and get far enough away from it to place detonators is far greater than that necessary to run to the back of the train, jump into the rear cab and use the GSM-R there, which since it has a UPS system, is highly unlikely to have been damaged.

During emergency protection the driver will go which ever way he deems most appropriate...which can either be backwards or much more likely, forwards. I say much more likely as there is more double track lines then there are paired quadruple track lines.

...and again, emergency protection is based on the worst case scenario (like most things) of not being able to contact the signaller straight away.

 

[HSTEd]

Certainly not a waste of time as laying a TC clip on another line (in TCB land) can alert an on coming train (providing it hasn't already passed the signal that the TC clip with operate) that something is wrong.

And the signaller can also do this when his panel reports that a train has just "disappeared" from his board, and can do this even if the train has passed the last signal, since he can instantly reach that train as well.

During emergency protection the driver will go which ever way he deems most appropriate...which can either be backwards or much more likely, forwards. I say much more likely as there is more double track lines then there are paired quadruple track lines.

Either way the distance to the point where he can set dets and wave a flag around is far greater than the distance to another GSM-R, and he might not even have to leave the train if he has a hand-held GSM-R 'mobile phone' as I suggest would be good practice.

...and again, emergency protection is based on the worst case scenario (like most things) of not being able to contact the signaller straight away.

But not being able to contact the signaller straight away tells the signaller something is wrong, GSM is constantly saying "I'm here" and giving basic information about the attached system.
If this information flow is disrupted for more than a few seconds an alarm will sound saying that the train has dropped off the system.

 

[GB]

And the signaller can also do this when his panel reports that a train has just "disappeared" from his board, and can do this even if the train has passed the last signal, since he can instantly reach that train as well.

We are not talking about disappearing trains. We are talking about an incident that involves the need to protect the opposite line and stop on coming trains. The signaller isn't psychic, he doesn't know what has happened or what is required unless he is either told or he receives a message stating as such and the whole point of what Ive been trying to say is what happens if you can't contact him....however unlikely that may seem.

Incidentally, the signaller will be hard pressed to replace an auto signal to danger in alot of cases.

Either way the distance to the point where he can set dets and wave a flag around is far greater than the distance to another GSM-R, and he might not even have to leave the train if he has a hand-held GSM-R 'mobile phone' as I suggest would be good practice.

Im not disputing that emergency protection is slower than talking to the signaller on a (working) radio.

But not being able to contact the signaller straight away tells the signaller something is wrong, GSM is constantly saying "I'm here" and giving basic information about the attached system.
If this information flow is disrupted for more than a few seconds an alarm will sound saying that the train has dropped off the system.

Ok, so what messages, alarms or information does a signaller actually get when a GSMR radio is damaged?

B
Think about it, he has a train that was in a section a minute ago, but now is no longer on the GSM-R network and appears to have disappeared from his track circuit display. (And if the train is still appearing on the track circuit display the driver placing a TC clip is a pointless waste of time).

I think you fail to understand the key fundamentals of using a TC clip.

 

[ainsworth74]

Incidentally, the signaller will be hard pressed to replace an auto signal to danger in alot of cases.

I've often thought that this is something a flaw in the automatic signal system, surely there should be a way for a signaller to override the signal and force it to display a danger aspect.

Wasn't there something to this effect in the Hidden report?

 

[GB]

I believe newer installations have to have the ability to replace an auto signal and have it guaranteed. I guess they thought it was never really required.

 

[KA4C]

But not being able to contact the signaller straight away tells the signaller something is wrong, GSM is constantly saying "I'm here" and giving basic information about the attached system.
If this information flow is disrupted for more than a few seconds an alarm will sound saying that the train has dropped off the system.

So you are saying that every time a GSMR is de-registered an alarm is sent to the signaller?

 

[HSTEd]

Ok, so what messages, alarms or information does a signaller actually get when a GSMR radio is damaged?

The system will detect that contact has been lost with the radio in question as it will no longer receiving the "I'm here" messages that should be sent out by the trains.
The system will also know that the deactivation of the radio was not in a manner consistent with a controlled shutdown. (Since these systems send out a "switching off" report when deactivated properly). This means the train has suffered some sort of failure, either an electronic failure in the radio itself or physical damage to it. (As the radio has a UPS there would be no loss of contact due to a simple loss of power).

As these things tend to be rather reliable (how often do the actual electronics themselves of mobile phones tend to fail? and they are far less rugged than these systems) it is more likely that physical damage has occurred to the train.

We are not talking about disappearing trains. We are talking about an incident that involves the need to protect the opposite line and stop on coming trains. The signaller isn't psychic, he doesn't know what has happened or what is required unless he is either told or he receives a message stating as such and the whole point of what Ive been trying to say is what happens if you can't contact him....however unlikely that may seem.

The signaller knows something untoward has happened to the train, although I admit he does not know exactly what.
He can therefore attempt to contact the driver on the handheld headset that he/she should be carrying (and contact the TOC service manager who can attempt to reach other train crew for the same purpose), and at the same time initiate a group call with trains that are approaching tracks parallel to or otherwise related with the one the train was occupying when contact was lost, and instruct them to slow down and be prepared to stop, he can also ask them to remain alert to signs of what has happened to the train.

Incidentally, the signaller will be hard pressed to replace an auto signal to danger in alot of cases.

He doesn't need to, as I understand it all trains will be fitted with GSM-R equipment in the relatively near future, which means the signaller can get trains he wants to stop to stop without using the primary signalling system.
This has an added advantage in that this allows him to stop trains without relying on a signalling system that may have suffered a wrong-side failure (as at Clapham junction).

Im not disputing that emergency protection is slower than talking to the signaller on a (working) radio.

Indeed, but I am having trouble thinking of a situation that would leave the driver and other train crew (since these hand-held GSM-R handsets are sufficiently cheap that you could inexpensively issue them to all employees working on the active railway) alive and able to communicate, but leave them without a working radio.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So you are saying that every time a GSMR is de-registered an alarm is sent to the signaller?

Perhaps not a "DANGER DANGER DANGER" alarm, but it should certainly register on a console the signaller is using.

 

[KA4C]

Perhaps not a "DANGER DANGER DANGER" alarm, but it should certainly register on a console the signaller is using.

and when that happens, the "signaller" sends a stop to all trains in the area?

 

[HSTEd]

and when that happens, the "signaller" sends a stop to all trains in the area?

Not just on that basis no...... but if the GSM-R shutdown was unexpected he can instruct other drivers in the area using the group call function that there is an issue with this train, he can also simultaneously attempt to reach the driver on his handheld radio to clarify the situation.