Driver Only Operation (DOO) - When will it arrive?

[KA4C]

Not just on that basis no...... but if the GSM-R shutdown was unexpected he can instruct other drivers in the area using the group call function that there is an issue with this train, he can also simultaneously attempt to reach the driver on his handheld radio to clarify the situation.

What consitutes an unexpected GSMR shutdown?
Do drivers have handheld GSMR sets in the normal course of events?

 

[HSTEd]

What consitutes an unexpected GSMR shutdown?
Do drivers have handheld GSMR sets in the normal course of events?

One where the GSM-R is de-registered in a manner not consistent with someone deliberately switching it off, ie. when it just drops out without sending a "switching off" message.

And I don't know if they currently carry such handheld sets, but they are quite inexpensive so I would expect that they would be issued before DOO was to be approved on that line.

 

[KA4C]

One where the GSM-R is de-registered in a manner not consistent with someone deliberately switching it off, ie. when it just drops out without sending a "switching off" message.

What when a train leaves the system without the driver following the de-register process on the cab unit?

 

[HSTEd]

What when a train leaves the system without the driver following the de-register process on the cab unit?

Is the aim not to make the entire railway network GSM-R fitted?
And if the drivers failure to follow procedure causes an incident... that is on the driver's head.

Would you allow such laxity in the execution of something like Rule 55 (or its modern equivalent?)

 

[KA4C]

Is the aim not to make the entire railway network GSM-R fitted?
And if the drivers failure to follow procedure causes an incident... that is on the driver's head.

Would you allow such laxity in the execution of something like Rule 55 (or its modern equivalent?)

OK, let me re-phrase that, when a train leaves the GSMR system to which it is registered......

Only asking a question, just wanted to know the answer, no need to get all worked up about how I might or might not manage my staff

I can, however honestly say that I have never had to deal with a driver for errors in applying rule 55

 

[HSTEd]

OK, let me re-phrase that, when a train leaves the GSMR system to which it is registered......

Only asking a question, just wanted to know the answer, no need to get all worked up about how I might or might not manage my staff

I can, however honestly say that I have never had to deal with a driver for errors in applying rule 55

Oh right, the normal cell hand-off procedure would presumably occur, similar to that which occurs on regular GSM, so it would show up as a correct deregistration on the first cell.

 

[KA4C]

Oh right, the normal cell hand-off procedure would presumably occur, similar to that which occurs on regular GSM, so it would show up as a correct deregistration on the first cell.

Ah, OK, just finding things out that aren't in the training or the manual

 

[jon0844]

So you are saying that every time a GSMR is de-registered an alarm is sent to the signaller?

Every time a phone fails to register (and that period is different on various mobile networks, with pros and cons for a long or short re-registration period that I won't detail right now) then it could be detected by whoever wants or needs to know. You would know the radio is out of operation, and if the train had GPS and transmitted its location periodically, you'd know the last reported position.

For safety, you could in theory have trains set up to stop if coverage is lost that would stop crew being able to communicate, or automatically stop - as an effective fail safe. Likewise, once control knows the train has no communications, it could alert other trains to stop - with the obvious 'risk' being that a faulty transmitter could see all trains halted and cause lots of delays (but if safety is paramount, that would surely be acceptable).

GSM is rock solid and proven. The quicker it is rolled out to the entire country and fitted on every train the better. The amount of data being sent or received is going to be minimal as there's nobody watching iPlayer or using P2P, so all trains can be sending updates and/or location information continuously with no ill effects.

The added benefit of GSM-R would be that everything can be confirmed. If a signal is sent to do something, the train can confirm it has received the instruction and acted upon it (like stopping the train).

 

[Flamingo]

Wigwamman started an interesting thread on DOO and it raises some interesting questions.

The first one is, Does any train need any staff member on it apart from the driver?

If the answer to this is yes, then the second question is what should be their role, and what training should they receive to fulfil that role?

If the answer is no, well why not?

I have my own opinions on this, but would be interested in seeing what others think, as everybody (both within the industry and outside it) seems to have their own ideas of what the guards role and priorities should be. As has been said, times change and roles change with them - adapt or die!

If the railway was starting next month, rather than being a nearly 200 year old institution, what role and skills should be expected of the member of staff travelling inside the train, both from a customer and a management point of view?

In your own time, watch and shoot...

 

[thelem]

If your radio has failed, is damaged, or is not accessible and you no longer have detonators, flags or TC clips what are you going to do?

You design the system to be fail safe so this can't happen. In this context the best way to do that is to have regular automatic radio contact between the train and the signalling system. If the train stops communicating for any reason then they signalling system can tell the following train to proceed at caution.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I have never been a fan of D.O.O.

 

[GingerbreadMan]

I personally think that there will always have some staff on some trains.

Technically and operationally speaking - they don't have to be traditional guards. New technology is making the role redundant (such as CCTV, door sensors, GSM-R, ERMTS and various on-train management systems).

However, from a customer service POV, I do think every train should have at least customer service staff onboard. For example to reassure pax if a fight kicks off, people being in first class with no valid ticket etc...

Sadly, DOO has been around since the 80's and it has proven to be safe and cost effective.

 

[tbtc]

I personally think that there will always have some staff on some trains.

Technically and operationally speaking - they don't have to be traditional guards. New technology is making the role redundant (such as CCTV, door sensors, GSM-R, ERMTS and various on-train management systems).

However, from a customer service POV, I do think every train should have at least customer service staff onboard. For example to reassure pax if a fight kicks off, people being in first class with no valid ticket etc...

Sadly, DOO has been around since the 80's and it has proven to be safe and cost effective.

I agree with all of that.

There's a need for a second member of staff on services, no doubt, but the advances in technology mean that many of the traditional "guard" roles can be performed by the driver/ computers.

 

[ainsworth74]

As above I'd never want to see a further roll out of services where there is no second member of staff on board (and on long distance services I'd expect there to be more than two) but I do think that most of the traditional role of a guard could now be performed by the driver with technical assistance. This means that the role would be become more focused on customer service and the selling/checking of tickets.

 

[Flamingo]

As above I'd never want to see a further roll out of services where there is no second member of staff on board (and on long distance services I'd expect there to be more than two) but I do think that most of the traditional role of a guard could now be performed by the driver with technical assistance. This means that the role would be become more focused on customer service and the selling/checking of tickets.

So do you think that the second person needs a safety-critical role?

 

[ainsworth74]

What is the definition of safety critical (honestly asking)? I've always assumed that it basically means someone who is qualified/trained to carry out dispatch duties and go on to the track to carry out things like emergency protection. Have I missed anything?

 

[Flamingo]

Basically, but a large component of it is the member of staff has to hit quite stringent medical standards including eyesight and hearing, and things like medication must be cleared by the Occ Health department before the staff member can be on duty.

 

[ainsworth74]

Hmm, it's a tough thing to make a decision about. Personally, I'd suggest that I would not have an issue with the second member of staff not having anything to do with dispatch. But beyond that it is more difficult.

Perhaps, if you'll allow it, I'll slightly change my viewpoint to being I would not have an issue with DOO (which kept at least one non-safety critical member of staff on board) being expanded but only into areas where GSM-R has been deployed or where, across the whole line, it is always possible to contact the signaller via radio or mobile phone. This would mean that the need to lay protection is reduced to being almost non-existent as it should be possible for the driver (or second member of staff if needed) to get blocks put on quicker via telecommunications than they could do through more traditional methods.

Basically I would be un-opposed to rolling out DOO where it's possible for the train crew to be in constant contact with the signaller.

 

[notadriver]

What about the Javelin model ? DOO train but has to have an on board manager. The only negative points are that the OBMs don't have an office of their own and are only allowed in the rear cab to stow bags.

 

[thelem]

What about the Javelin model ? DOO train but has to have an on board manager. The only negative points are that the OBMs don't have an office of their own and are only allowed in the rear cab to stow bags.

What do they need an office for? Any time they are in their office they are not available to help passengers.

 

[notadriver]

What do they need an office for? Any time they are in their office they are not available to help passengers.

I thought most main line trains have them such as Pendolinos and Desiro EMUs. Unlike traditional guards the rear cab is normally out of bounds (according to a senior OBM) so they have nowhere to sit down.

 

[KA4C]

What is the definition of safety critical (honestly asking)? I've always assumed that it basically means someone who is qualified/trained to carry out dispatch duties and go on to the track to carry out things like emergency protection. Have I missed anything?

Railways (Safety Critical Work) Regulations 1994 defined SCW as



“safety critical work” means work by a person—

(a)as a driver, guard, conductor or signalman or in any other capacity in which he can control or affect the movement of a vehicle;

(b)in a maintenance capacity or as a supervisor of, or look-out for, persons working in a maintenance capacity; and for this purpose, a person works in a maintenance capacity if his work involves—

(i)maintenance, repair or alteration of —

(aa)the permanent way or other means of guiding or supporting vehicles,

(bb)signals or any other means of controlling the movement of vehicles, or

(cc)any means of supplying electricity to vehicles or to the means of guiding or supporting vehicles, or

(ii)coupling or uncoupling vehicles; or

(iii)checking that vehicles are working properly before they are used on any occasion, system;

which could affect the health or safety of persons on a transport system;

“transport system” means a transport system to which Chapter I of Part II of the Transport and Works Act 1992(5) applies or would apply were it not for the exclusion in section 26(2) of that Act, except that it does not include any part of a transport system—

 

[Mintona]

What about the Javelin model ? DOO train but has to have an on board manager. The only negative points are that the OBMs don't have an office of their own and are only allowed in the rear cab to stow bags.

Not true, OBMs are allowed in the back can for a variety of reasons, the same as any other guard.

 

[Flamingo]

The train guard needs somewhere away from the public for a few reasons - making calls that may be confidential, secure storage of kit, sorting out cash or equipment, or even as a place of safety to retreat to if confronted by difficult passengers (and I don't mean hide when it's all going wrong).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hmm, it's a tough thing to make a decision about. Personally, I'd suggest that I would not have an issue with the second member of staff not having anything to do with dispatch. But beyond that it is more difficult.

Perhaps, if you'll allow it, I'll slightly change my viewpoint to being I would not have an issue with DOO (which kept at least one non-safety critical member of staff on board) being expanded but only into areas where GSM-R has been deployed or where, across the whole line, it is always possible to contact the signaller via radio or mobile phone. This would mean that the need to lay protection is reduced to being almost non-existent as it should be possible for the driver (or second member of staff if needed) to get blocks put on quicker via telecommunications than they could do through more traditional methods.

Basically I would be un-opposed to rolling out DOO where it's possible for the train crew to be in constant contact with the signaller.

The problem is that in a lot of scenarios that we train for, the assumption is that the driver will be "unavailable" (ie breathing his last on the floor of a smashed up cab - I refer you back to the Lavington pictures, where this could easily have been the scenario, the driver was injured and could not get easily or quickly out of the cab). This may not happen frequently, but has to be planned for.

But there are a lot of things the guard does that does not involve either running a mile and a quarter with a handful of bangers and a bardic, or saying "Tickets Please". It's what priority the TOC's and travelling public place on these that I wonder.

 

[BestWestern]

What do they need an office for? Any time they are in their office they are not available to help passengers.

^^Refer you to the above post.


It's all been said before, but even the funkiest bit of techno-kit is only as much use as the guy at the other end. As Flamingo quite rightly says, if that guy is deceased on the floor of his cab, then you are going to have a problem. Sure, the Signaller might be able to see the rough location of the train, but how does he go about effecting the response when he has no other information except that the train has come to a stop? Is the train on fire, are there casualties, is the adjacent line strewn with wreckage? Many areas have little or no mobile phone coverage, how many passengers are going to be well enough informed to go and find the Driver's GSM-R handset or the nearest SPT?! The Signaller knows absolutely nothing about what has occurred, since there is absolutely nobody to tell him. Is it an emergency straight away, does he spend 10 minutes trying to communicate with the Driver, or does he hit the panic button after a minute or two and send in the cavalry? And what will that cavalry do? They might be an hour away, and when they do arrive the nearest road access could be 20 minutes' walk over muddy fields. Are the passengers still sitting comfortably, thumbing through The Times?

And then there's the apparently thorny issue of those 'antiquated' track circuit clips. No use in this day and age? Automatic signals anyone?! Yep, we can do emergency broadcasts now, and tell that approaching train to take a look. But again, it might take five minutes before the Bobby has stopped trying the stricken train and sent the message. You can travel a long way in five minutes. Those clips go down straight away.

GSM-R has some very useful attributes, but it also has the potential to cause havoc. The dreaded 'Red Button', which automatically throws every signal in the area, will cost many hundreds of thousands of pounds in spurious delays in the coming years. Indeed, you can't move for posters telling you not to accidentally press it! But people will, time and again. Equally, there will be occasions when Drivers stop to deal with something and leave the handset sat on the desk, spend 10 minutes under the train and come back to find the Signaller has sent a search party. It will happen, and it will cost a lot of money in delay minutes, unnecessary NR response teams (for which I presume a charge could well be levied), and goodness knows what else. Every Driver I have spoken to on the subject has staunchly told me that they do not wish to work under DOO - most notably the ones who have already done it. They know how good the new kit is, they know better than anybody else what their duties are if it goes pear shaped, and they still want their Guard on the back. I think that says a hell of a lot.

 

[tirphil]

And you are entirely correct BestWestern. I've worked DOO and I currently work trains with a guard, and working trains with a guard is the ONLY way to work a train in my opinion.

Guards are undervalued by many TOC's and underpaid.

 

[Central Trains]

And you are entirely correct BestWestern. I've worked DOO and I currently work trains with a guard, and working trains with a guard is the ONLY way to work a train in my opinion.

Guards are undervalued by many TOC's and underpaid.

Here here!!

 

[HSTEd]

^^Refer you to the above post.

It's all been said before, but even the funkiest bit of techno-kit is only as much use as the guy at the other end. As Flamingo quite rightly says, if that guy is deceased on the floor of his cab, then you are going to have a problem. Sure, the Signaller might be able to see the rough location of the train, but how does he go about effecting the response when he has no other information except that the train has come to a stop?

As I said he has the knowledge that the train's GSM-R system has come to grief and the driver has been disabled (since he won't respond to his own handset). Since GSM-R is designed to support ERTMS Level 3 it is within the standard to transmit information from the trains management system regarding the reading from its own tachometers.
This gives the exact location of the train to the metre.

The Signaller knows absolutely nothing about what has occurred, since there is absolutely nobody to tell him. Is it an emergency straight away, does he spend 10 minutes trying to communicate with the Driver, or does he hit the panic button after a minute or two and send in the cavalry? And what will that cavalry do? They might be an hour away, and when they do arrive the nearest road access could be 20 minutes' walk over muddy fields. Are the passengers still sitting comfortably, thumbing through The Times?

The radio has failed catastrophically and the driver is not answering his GSM-R handset, this means something very very bad has happened.
This would ring serious alarm bells and he would probably ring through to any nearby trains within one or two minutes, and since he knows for sure what track circuit block the train is in.
They can take a look and stop to help if something bad has happened.

Help is not an hour away if one man counts as help, unless the nearest train cannot reach the site in an hour.

And then there's the apparently thorny issue of those 'antiquated' track circuit clips. No use in this day and age? Automatic signals anyone?! Yep, we can do emergency broadcasts now, and tell that approaching train to take a look. But again, it might take five minutes before the Bobby has stopped trying the stricken train and sent the message. You can travel a long way in five minutes. Those clips go down straight away.

If there is a staff member on the train able to deploy TC clips there is someone on the train who can use a GSM-R handset, and since it is highly unlikely he would be able to put TC clips down after an experience that would put a ruggedised handset out of commission.... he can press a button and say "Block All Lines Block All Lines", and since the signaller knows what service he is assigned to he can block the appropriate lines in a matter of seconds, either by group calling all the trains approaching the lines and telling them to stop, or just by pressing his red button.

Whiel your guard is still trying to find his TC clips.
With our without DOO TC clips are made obsolete my GSM-R.

Equally, there will be occasions when Drivers stop to deal with something and leave the handset sat on the desk, spend 10 minutes under the train and come back to find the Signaller has sent a search party.

So if this driver does not tell the signaller he is going to attend to something before going, and does not take the GSM-R handset he is assigned with him, he does not deserve to remain in his job, and if the signaller sends a search party despite being told that the driver is leaving the desk and with the desk still functioning perfectly, neither does he.

 

[68000]

GSM-R that is being rolled out nationally will not be connected to any on train systems other than PA & DSD. There is no way for the signaller to know if GSM-R has failed other than to see if the headcode has dropped off his terminal.

Different story with ERTMS although that is a long time away

There is a Guards training course for GSM-R and the rear cab radio is independent of the front cab and should be used in an emergency should the front cab radio become inoperable

 

[BestWestern]

As I said he has the knowledge that the train's GSM-R system has come to grief and the driver has been disabled (since he won't respond to his own handset). Since GSM-R is designed to support ERTMS Level 3 it is within the standard to transmit information from the trains management system regarding the reading from its own tachometers.
This gives the exact location of the train to the metre.

While your guard is still trying to find his TC clips.
With our without DOO TC clips are made obsolete my GSM-R.

So if this driver does not tell the signaller he is going to attend to something before going, and does not take the GSM-R handset he is assigned with him, he does not deserve to remain in his job, and if the signaller sends a search party despite being told that the driver is leaving the desk and with the desk still functioning perfectly, neither does he.

ERTMS, level 3 or otherwise, is many years away. GSM-R in itself is the package being discussed, and that offers way less provision for handling such a situation.

I can assure you that a decent Guard will not be 'trying to find his TC clips',; he will know very well exactly where they are, and they will be hitting the steel pretty quickly.

As for Drivers going AWOL, it will happen somewhere along the way, I've been stuck at a red for similar reasons in the past! A bigger concern is the red button of doom, but either way we will see some chaos every now and then I have no doubt.