Driver Only Operation Introduction Under British Rail

[Mag_seven]

What lines were considered for Driver Only Operation under BR. I know that the "Bedpan" line and Strathclyde electrics were converted but were any other lines considered and how far did they get? It was suggested that for example the Euston to Northampton line was considered but it never happened for some reason, or it might have been introduced and then withdrawn?.

note : This is a history thread for posters to record their historical knowledge on this topic NOT a thread for debating the rights and wrongs of it

 

[delt1c]

Interesting that the refurbish 303,s were suitable for DOO operation but retained a Guards. Were they ever used for DOO ?

 

[Helvellyn]

South Western suburban lines out of Waterloo were considered. Privatisation stopped it and never actively looked at again under Stagecoach.

The DOO mirrors were still in situ at a number of stations on the Hounslow loop and Walton-on-Thames well into the 2010s.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It was essentially a Network South East policy, from the class 317 EMUs onwards (1981).
After St Pancras-Bedford, I think pretty much all London commuter routes which got new stock went over to DOO - except out of Waterloo and Euston.
It did need an infrastructure upgrade (station lighting, mirrors etc) and that took time to roll out line by line.
So the GN, GE, SE, SC went over when new EMUs arrived (notably the Networkers), and also Thames and Chiltern (which had a common operator) with Turbos.
Cascades had an effect too, as DOO stock (317, 321 etc) progressively moved eastwards, notably when Thameslink started up with 319s.
Another factor was the withdrawal of slam-door stock, which was delayed in some areas until the 2000 deadline.
Inter City and Regional weren't interested, except for Clydeside.
However drivers do open the doors on some IC stock (390, 221, maybe 80x now).

 

[whoosh]

Great Northern - Kings Cross/Finsbury Park to Letchworth via Welwyn and Hertford North. This went over to DOO in 1986 I think. Although this cab ride video claims to be from 1985 where it is discussed that training has started that week. Class 317s are mentioned - I didn't think they were on the GN as early as that, but maybe they were. Have a listen to some interesting views from 13m39s between Hadley Wood and Potters Bar where DOO is talked about!

Later the outer Suburban went DOO when new trains arrived to displace the class 312s that were previously used. Extensions of the overhead wires to Huntingdon, and onto Peterborough occurred just before this but went DOO soon after opening to electric trains as class 317s entered service.

There was an extension of the overhead wires to Cambridge as well later on. That would've been DOO as soon as that was done.


Going back to the inner suburban, the Northern City Line from Finsbury Park to Moorgate, which includes an underground section, was converted later and ran with guards into the 1990s.


Euston, mentioned above, did go DOO - but only the DC services to Watford Junction.


On Strathclyde, Guard's were sacked when they went on strike in protest, but things got political when Strathclyde, the Labour-run local authority (who subsidised the service) threatened to reduce subsidies and cut the service if they weren't reinstated. Eventually they were, after talks took place and a negotiated settlement - the Strathclyde Manning Agreement, was made. This made sure a Guard (repurposed as a Ticket Examiner) was rostered to every train, but the trains operated as DOO and could run without a Ticket Examiner in circumstances when one wasn't available. The Southern agreement with ASLEF as to when trains could run without an OBS was along similar lines.

Here's a press cutting from the time:

I'm sure I read that it was free to use Strayhclyde trains for a week shortly afterwards, as an apology to the public for putting up with the strikes.


The South West part of Network South East and the Euston to Northampton lines had some platform furniture (mirrors or monitors) fitted, but there was much resistance by the workforce to conversion, and progress halted due to their positioning not being optimal. Privatisation came, and the new managements thought it too much hard work to continue to push it through.

 

[Mag_seven]

On Strathclyde, Guard's were sacked when they went on strike in protest, but things got political when Strathclyde, the Labour-run local authority (who subsidised the service) threatened to reduce subsidies and cut the service if they weren't reinstated. Eventually they were, after talks took place and a negotiated settlement - the Strathclyde Manning Agreement, was made. This made sure a Guard (repurposed as a Ticket Examiner) was rostered to every train, but the trains operated as DOO and could run without a Ticket Examiner in circumstances when one wasn't available. The Southern agreement with ASLEF as to when trains could run without an OBS was along similar lines.

Here's a press cutting from the time:View attachment 78872

I'm sure I read that it was free to use Strayhclyde trains for a week shortly afterwards, as an apology to the public for putting up with the strikes.


The South West part of Network South East and the Euston to Northampton lines had some platform furniture (mirrors or monitors) fitted, but there was much resistance by the workforce to conversion, and progress halted due to their positioning not being optimal. Privatisation came, and the new managements thought it too much hard work to continue to push it through.

Thanks for the newspaper cutting and summary of the Strathclyde situation - it confirms a couple of things from my memory of this dispute.

 

[A0wen]

Great Northern - Kings Cross/Finsbury Park to Letchworth via Welwyn and Hertford North. This went over to DOO in 1986 I think. Although this cab ride video claims to be from 1985 where it is discussed that training has started that week. Class 317s are mentioned - I didn't think they were on the GN as early as that, but maybe they were. Have a listen to some interesting views from 13m39s between Hadley Wood and Potters Bar where DOO is talked about!

Later the outer Suburban went DOO when new trains arrived to displace the class 312s that were previously used. Extensions of the overhead wires to Huntingdon, and onto Peterborough occurred just before this but went DOO soon after opening to electric trains as class 317s entered service.

There was an extension of the overhead wires to Cambridge as well later on. That would've been DOO as soon as that was done.


Going back to the inner suburban, the Northern City Line from Finsbury Park to Moorgate, which includes an underground section, was converted later and ran with guards into the 1990s.

The 317/2s came new to the GN lines in 1985/6, so that would tie up. The older 317/1 didn't arrive until later IIRC having done time on Euston - Birminghams after the MML.

The 312s disappeared about the same time as the electrification extensions to Huntingdon and Cambridge happened which I think were '87 and '88 respectively ?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Do not forget freight DOO in this period - there were initial trials between Willesden and Trafford Park on Freightliner trains , - which of course resulted in a major roll out where appropriate. (being a freight guard in a back cab had to be about the most boring job going , but great for reading !)

 

[whoosh]

The 317/2s came new to the GN lines in 1985/6, so that would tie up. The older 317/1 didn't arrive until later IIRC having done time on Euston - Birminghams after the MML.

The 312s disappeared about the same time as the electrification extensions to Huntingdon and Cambridge happened which I think were '87 and '88 respectively ?

Thanks, I just don't remember 317s being there that early. Huntington's first electric train was a 312, and I can remember 312s at Peterborough, but they were very short lived - probably under a year.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I'd be interested to know how it was all managed to be implemented and how RMT and ASLEF were eventually persuaded and it's odd to think that privatisation actually prolonged the use of guards in the NSE areas that still had them and still continues.

Out of interest does anyone have the dates of DOO implementation for each area for NSE?