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Driver took a wrong route

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Llama

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Looks from RTT as though it may have used the through road on the second attempt.
There is a ground signal, MP1209 IIRC, on the Up Salford line (towards Salford Central) which can be used to signal trains back onto the Up Bolton line ('through line' next to Crescent), behind the main aspect signal there, from where the train could be signalled correctly towards Deansgate. Involves changing ends twice though, double the 'walk of shame'.
It would always be preferable to make a signalled move than an un-signalled move where possible.
 
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Southbound Northern Line trains at Kennington are sometimes switched to the loop instead of proceeding towards Morden. The signaller has made a mistake, and the driver has seen a green signal and started the train, not realising (until too late) that he's heading for the wrong route. Hopefully there's a least one passenger who thinks it's a good track-bashing experience.
 

clagmonster

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In a case like this, where the wrong route was offered and taken at a station starter at which the train had a booked stop, would the dispatcher and guard take any responsibility for the wrong route being taken? I suspect the guard probably couldn't see the feather at Salford Crescent if dispatching from the rear, but the dispatcher may well be able to.
 

tom73

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Was it this train (2K51 0708 Buckshaw Parkway to Manchester Piccadilly)?

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/Y53209/2019/02/19/advanced

If so I'm guessing it drove back to Salford Crescent and tried again.

There are a lot of trains going through Salford Crescent these days, both platforms are bi-directional and there is an avoiding line as well. I can imagine the signalling is pretty complicated. Hope the driver and signaller are ok, although it was a mistake and inconvenience, nobody was in any danger.

Sorry but the use of the pronoun amused me, as though the train itself drove back to Salford Crescent to try again.
 

Trackman

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The dispatcher didn’t spot it too, can they see the signal and route indicator or do they have OFF indicators at Crescent?
 

Eccles1983

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In a case like this, where the wrong route was offered and taken at a station starter at which the train had a booked stop, would the dispatcher and guard take any responsibility for the wrong route being taken? I suspect the guard probably couldn't see the feather at Salford Crescent if dispatching from the rear, but the dispatcher may well be able to.


Their is no "feather" it's a theatre box with either US/DB/UB.

The dispatcher/guard is not concerned by it. As long as the signal shows proceed they have done their job.

It's all on the driver unfortunately
 

Llama

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The dispatcher and guard might not be able to see any of the signals with route indications at Crescent and work to the 'off' indicators, but even if they could see the signals the buck still stops with the driver and signaller assuming no 'back office' cockups.

It doesn't take a signaller or driver to be having a particularly bad day in the office for a wrong route to be offered and taken.
 

Dr_Paul

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That happened at Wokingham last August, it took several hours to get the SWR train back on the third rail.

How would this be solved these days with the profusion of stock with non-compatible couplers? Are there match-wagons fitted with various couplers stationed at depots that can be coupled to locomotives and taken to where they can be coupled to the EMU or DMU that needs to be moved?
 

Llama

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Emergency adaptor couplers and a light loco, or a lot of shuffling about with units until a compatible unit type can be sent! Not all units carry adaptor couplers so they might have to be brought from a depot to the location of the stricken train by fitters in a van.
 

pompeyfan

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Emergency adaptor couplers and a light loco, or a lot of shuffling about with units until a compatible unit type can be sent! Not all units carry adaptor couplers so they might have to be brought from a depot to the location of the stricken train by fitters in a van.

Southerns 313s are terrible for gapping themselves when crossing at low speed from the Up Down Fratton or the down line to the low level at Portsmouth & Southsea. Lots of wrong direction moves to get another 313 in place to give it a shove.
 

DanDaDriver

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If the signaller is 99% to blame and the driver is 1% to blame then the driver gets the blame. (Same as with most things. I think there was even a poem written about it at some point.)

It’s not as much sitting down and pushing the odd button as the Daily Mail would have you believe.

Having said that I can think of several places where you could be wrong routed and wouldn’t know until it was too late.
 

tsr

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Their is no "feather" it's a theatre box with either US/DB/UB.

The dispatcher/guard is not concerned by it. As long as the signal shows proceed they have done their job.

It's all on the driver unfortunately

This is very different from “down south”, where dispatchers and guards (on all the companies I know of) are required to know the correct routes to be offered at any signal from which a train needs to be dispatched!

At some locations, indications on certain signals could send the guard towards a line of route they don’t “sign”, so this is another reason for them to check independently.
 

TEW

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This is very different from “down south”, where dispatchers and guards (on all the companies I know of) are required to know the correct routes to be offered at any signal from which a train needs to be dispatched!

At some locations, indications on certain signals could send the guard towards a line of route they don’t “sign”, so this is another reason for them to check independently.
Of course it is not always possible for the guard or dispatcher to check that the correct route is set if they are using an off indicator or banner repeater rather than the signal itself. Where they can see the signal itself though they should also be checking that the correct route has been set.
 

Dren Ahmeti

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How would this be solved these days with the profusion of stock with non-compatible couplers? Are there match-wagons fitted with various couplers stationed at depots that can be coupled to locomotives and taken to where they can be coupled to the EMU or DMU that needs to be moved?
They always get another 450/458 from Reading to pull it out.
Luckily, this unit was still partly on Wokingham Junction but had gone on a jaunt towards Blackwater; it took a while for the unit to be inspected and the shoes to be clipped up.
CC8Pu32_d.jpg
 

Statto

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Anyone who plays simsig knows it's very easy on a sim to accidentally send a train on the wrong route, i've done it, normally the train stops at the signal in question & makes a phone call, similar to real thing easy to make an error especially if it's a busy route, don't know how many signallers are working at one time, here's the signaling centre that covers Salford Crescent, it's very easy to make such an error given how big an area the signaling centre covers

https://www.flickr.com/photos/panarail/7512396412/in/photostream/
 

LAX54

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They always get another 450/458 from Reading to pull it out.
Luckily, this unit was still partly on Wokingham Junction but had gone on a jaunt towards Blackwater; it took a while for the unit to be inspected and the shoes to be clipped up.

So with that, Signaller will be, or should be removed from panel, possible med-screen, and interview with Manager, (no biscuits or tea).
 

pdeaves

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There are, of course, many instances where a 'wrong' route may actually initially be a valid alternative route. For example, heading south through Redhill rather than the Quarry lines. It's only the wrong route if routed towards Reigate or Tonbridge. There's probably beter examples.
 

Esker-pades

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There are, of course, many instances where a 'wrong' route may actually initially be a valid alternative route. For example, heading south through Redhill rather than the Quarry lines. It's only the wrong route if routed towards Reigate or Tonbridge. There's probably beter examples.

Water Orton to Tamworth? One can go direct, or via Whitacre Junction and re-join at Kingsbury Junction.
 

LAX54

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There are, of course, many instances where a 'wrong' route may actually initially be a valid alternative route. For example, heading south through Redhill rather than the Quarry lines. It's only the wrong route if routed towards Reigate or Tonbridge. There's probably beter examples.

But only a 'valid' route if booked that way by way of a diversion, or an incident has happened that requires trains to go that way, otherwise, it will still be a wrong route, and if a delay caused, dealt with as such.
 

tsr

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Of course it is not always possible for the guard or dispatcher to check that the correct route is set if they are using an off indicator or banner repeater rather than the signal itself. Where they can see the signal itself though they should also be checking that the correct route has been set.

More lax than what I’m used to. The guard is meant to either walk down the platform to see the junction/route indicator or, if that’s either not possible or too prone to causing a delay, call the driver to ascertain that the route is set correctly. A number of the smaller stations in South London require the latter.

There are even some locations where a guard can see the route + off indicator but the main aspect of the signal is obscured. (The Down Slow platform starter at South Croydon is still a good one to demonstrate this, but guards don’t dispatch trains very often at that station any more.)
 

Sunset route

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But only a 'valid' route if booked that way by way of a diversion, or an incident has happened that requires trains to go that way, otherwise, it will still be a wrong route, and if a delay caused, dealt with as such.

Not quite, we are allowed to divert via either route wouthout the driving stopping to question as to why as long as the train is not booked to call at any intermediate stations and in that case we would need to advise the driver as to why. The only thing that happens if we accidental wrongly route a nonstop train(s) is that the delay will go against the box and a report will probably have to go in from the signaller.
 

The Planner

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But only a 'valid' route if booked that way by way of a diversion, or an incident has happened that requires trains to go that way, otherwise, it will still be a wrong route, and if a delay caused, dealt with as such.
@driver_m will probably better answer this, but I'm sure Virgin don't have to query a route at Hanslope or Rugby? Does it also apply at Colwich?
 

TEW

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More lax than what I’m used to. The guard is meant to either walk down the platform to see the junction/route indicator or, if that’s either not possible or too prone to causing a delay, call the driver to ascertain that the route is set correctly. A number of the smaller stations in South London require the latter.

There are even some locations where a guard can see the route + off indicator but the main aspect of the signal is obscured. (The Down Slow platform starter at South Croydon is still a good one to demonstrate this, but guards don’t dispatch trains very often at that station any more.)
Interesting. There are a few locations I work through where it is not possible to see the junction or route indicator with certain formations of train, and there is no requirement to check then. Guards are required to know the correct indicators for routes where applicable, and if they were able to see the junction or route indicator they would be considered partly to blame were a train to be wrong routed. Not being able to see the route or junction indicator, but being able to see an off indicator to safely dispatch the train still would exonerate the guard though.
 

dk1

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Ahh, remember that very well ! sadly the Signaller passed away recently, Was doing the voice comms for the Signaller's inquiry, whilst listening, was thinking, heck how far has this train gone ! ? Have to say the IC set must have got up a fair head of steam to go beyond the GPL on the Thet Line.
I nearly SPaD'd that signal whilst going on the back but not sure if you would've known. Control said it's only just the loco & a coach over the junction but considering the DVT was beyond the signal it was a little bit more than that :lol: I was so busy concentrating on the train I almost failed to notice the red. Don't think it had TPWS at the time. Sorry to hear he has passed away.
 

driver_m

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@driver_m will probably better answer this, but I'm sure Virgin don't have to query a route at Hanslope or Rugby? Does it also apply at Colwich?

We don't question being routed via Northampton at all, we do for anything via Brum or via Hixon/Stafford unless already tipped off via guard/GSMR

There was a point were we didn't need to question Colwich routings, but AFAIK this was rescinded. (I would by virtue of the fact that almost all my worked trains stop at Stafford anyway)
 

Dren Ahmeti

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So with that, Signaller will be, or should be removed from panel, possible med-screen, and interview with Manager, (no biscuits or tea).
Regardless of that, the driver would've in an equal amount of trouble, as they took the clear "non-feathered" route at WM31, the starter at Wokingham Platform 1!
The route knowledge diagrams for SWR specifically state that "Electric services must have Junction Indicator No. 1", for obvious reasons.
This particular incident caused a big NR response, as it also snarled up Wokingham LC.
 

driver_m

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It's easily done on both sides, any manager worth their salt would understand this can happen and the issue shouldn't be too major on either side, as long the driver hasn't made a bad situation much worse. There's a notorious tale of a freight driver in BR days taking a wrong route somewhere over in Yorkshire trying to get to what I presume is the old LM region but taking some insane magical mystery tour of the middle of the country taking various wrong routes after initially taking a wrong route. Now this tale will no doubt have a million different routings depending on who you listen to, but you get the gist of what happened.
 

Dren Ahmeti

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There are, of course, many instances where a 'wrong' route may actually initially be a valid alternative route. For example, heading south through Redhill rather than the Quarry lines. It's only the wrong route if routed towards Reigate or Tonbridge. There are probably better examples.
We don't have to query routes at Didcot East Junction towards Didcot North Junction at T913 - if routing towards Oxford non-stop.
You can either be routed via the Avoiding Line via T2209, or through Didcot Parkway itself via Platform 3, 4 and 5 and then the Chester lines.
(Most drivers would not be happy to be routed bi-directionally through 4 and 5 though ;))
 
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A video from a SE driver who did get routed down the wrong line and how he dealt with it
1. I'm not sure what "confidenshooality" is!
2. "The railway is very good at not punishine people for doing things wrong" That's not the doom and gloom scenario that staff here and on WNXX seem to endlessly mention?
 

Metal_gee_man

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1. I'm not sure what "confidenshooality" is!
2. "The railway is very good at not punishine people for doing things wrong" That's not the doom and gloom scenario that staff here and on WNXX seem to endlessly mention?
I think he's like a number of industry professionals that post here, worried his bosses might pick up on something he's said on one of his Vlogs or on here posting industry secrets etc...
 
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