Driver took a wrong route

[driver_m]

1. I'm not sure what "confidenshooality" is!
2. "The railway is very good at not punishine people for doing things wrong" That's not the doom and gloom scenario that staff here and on WNXX seem to endlessly mention?

Without seeing the video in question, standards vary greatly from TOC to TOC and even within depots. All depends on the manager in question. The railway does not do anything consistently . And @Metal_gee_man makes a great point. Got to be very careful with what you say on here, not so much about other companies, but definitely your own.

 

[Llama]

Also depends on the individual's recent record. It is reassuring that at least at our firm 'whether your face fits' and 'how short we are of drivers' has no bearing these days. However the art of the 'suitable conversation' and man-management seem to be things of the past. Everything is HR-driven by people who wouldn't know the first thing about driving a train.

 

[Dieseldriver]

1. I'm not sure what "confidenshooality" is!
2. "The railway is very good at not punishine people for doing things wrong" That's not the doom and gloom scenario that staff here and on WNXX seem to endlessly mention?

What we 'seem to endlessly mention' is that our mistakes stick like superglue. If the Driver on that video decided to move companies in five years time, his potential employer would see all of his issues/Incidents, including the wrong route he'd accepted. Have a few of those, or even worse, a SPAD, that could ruin any future plans.

 

[Nippy]

We don't have to query routes at Didcot East Junction towards Didcot North Junction at T913 - if routing towards Oxford non-stop.
You can either be routed via the Avoiding Line via T2209, or through Didcot Parkway itself via Platform 3, 4 and 5 and then the Chester lines.
(Most drivers would not be happy to be routed bi-directionally through 4 and 5 though )

Used to be the same at Reading/Cogload when I joined in 1993. Provided the train was non stop it could be routed either way without question. It was stated as such in the front of the Working Timetable.

 

[Bevan Price]

Almost all trains starting at Buckshaw Parkway go to Manchester Victoria, not Piccadilly, so whilst hard to excuse, it must be an easy mistake to make.

 

[route101]

I suspect that a lot of Joe and Josephine Public do believe that steering a train around bends is part of the driver's job. It's an understandable misconception and shouldn't be ridiculed.

Arent trams a bit like that , sometimes you see the drivers come out to set the points

 

[Llama]

That's the first thing I thought. It does have a 'kilo' headcode though which should mark it as going south of Manchester rather than a 'juliet' which is generally used for north of Manchester.

Last time I got offered a wrong route at the same location was years ago on a late Blackpool-Manchester stopper which would normally have terminated at Victoria but was diverted to Piccadilly due to engineering work. The headcode (2J44) was kept the same though, so my spider-sense made me aware that there would be more chance of being offered the wrong road.

A lot of the longstanding headcode patterns have changed in the last few years around Manchester which must be a nightmare for the bobbies - they only get one chance to get it right.

 

[Statto]

Not sure what the signal layout at Salford Crescent is like, but last signals before junctions should be like this with route indicators on the top of the signal https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1622553 with it switched around depending on type of junction, the route indicator should light up if the route is set for train to join another branch, think that's why drivers get more of a black mark than the signaller, as the drivers route trained supposed to look out for this type of thing, but being human mistakes do happen.

 

[6Gman]

Not sure what the signal layout at Salford Crescent is like, but last signals before junctions should be like this with route indicators on the top of the signal https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1622553 with it switched around depending on type of junction, the route indicator should light up if the route is set for train to join another branch, think that's why drivers get more of a black mark than the signaller, as the drivers route trained supposed to look out for this type of thing, but being human mistakes do happen.

I think somebody's already said that it's theatre indicators at Salford Crescent rather than feathers.

 

[Surreytraveller]

But only a 'valid' route if booked that way by way of a diversion, or an incident has happened that requires trains to go that way, otherwise, it will still be a wrong route, and if a delay caused, dealt with as such.

If a train is signalled via Redhill when it is booked via the Quarrys, it is not a wrong route, as it is allowed for in the Sectional Appendix, and the train can still get to where its supposed to be going and call at its booked stations

 

[Surreytraveller]

Despite it being the signaller that can set the wrong route in the first place.

That's a bit like blaming a signaller for a train going through a red signal because the signaller didn't pull off.
Yes, the signaller gave a wrong route. But the driver also accepted it

 

[philthetube]

That's a bit like blaming a signaller for a train going through a red signal because the signaller didn't pull off.
Yes, the signaller gave a wrong route. But the driver also accepted it

True but if the signal should have been clear it will be looked at, both for future spad avoidance and as a means of reducing delays.

 

[Surreytraveller]

True but if the signal should have been clear it will be looked at, both for future spad avoidance and as a means of reducing delays.

I believe a TOC tried to blame a signaller for a signal being at red for a driver SPADing about 20 years ago. I have not heard of it happening since. It is a driver's job to stop at red signals, regardless of the reason of them being red (unless the signal has gone back)

 

[tsr]

If a train is signalled via Redhill when it is booked via the Quarrys, it is not a wrong route, as it is allowed for in the Sectional Appendix, and the train can still get to where its supposed to be going and call at its booked stations

Of course, there's been the odd stalemate the other way round, late at night, when the signaller has allowed a possession to go ahead, believing from their notices that the last train to call at Redhill had already run, whereas the next driver has then stopped at Stoats Nest Jn shortly afterwards, stating their schedule card said they are still booked to call, and refusing to take the wrong route...

Put it this way, many taxis from Horley have had to be arranged from time to time...

I believe a TOC tried to blame a signaller for a signal being at red for a driver SPADing about 20 years ago. I have not heard of it happening since. It is a driver's job to stop at red signals, regardless of the reason of them being red (unless the signal has gone back)

Hurst Green Junction by any chance? Although that might have been more recently.

A driver took the proceed aspect on the GPL shunt signal at Hurst Green, in order to head Down from the Up East Grinstead to Down Uckfield line, after confirming the route with the signaller (as required by the local rules). The signaller did not, however, mention that the next signal was at danger. This next signal is in close proximity, round a blind bend, and normally protected by a single yellow during normal three-aspect approach from the Down EG. Of course the driver did not have said usual warning, by means of a single yellow, that the signal was at danger, only having seen the two whites on the shunt signal instead. So they took power for the 70mph limit after the shunt, and went straight past the red around the corner.

The argument by the TOC was, allegedly, that there was a high and very predictable risk the driver would not anticipate the next signal being held at danger, which is in any case extremely rare - let alone after seeing double whites and not a single yellow. They believed the signaller should have advised the driver of the unusual sequence during their phone call before the shunt.

The Network Rail (or predecessors') argument, which was (unfortunately for the driver & co.) entirely correct, was that the driver should have expected the most restrictive aspect at the next signal, seeing as shunt signals never usually have any way to display the possible aspect of the next signal, and there is never an intended meaning as such.

 

[matt_world2004]

Didnt wrong routing happen pretty regularly on the London Underground with trains at Harrow being sent to Marylebone, districts to North Ealing and Overgrounds to Turnham Green.

 

[Tomnick]

Not sure what the signal layout at Salford Crescent is like, but last signals before junctions should be like this with route indicators on the top of the signal https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1622553 with it switched around depending on type of junction, the route indicator should light up if the route is set for train to join another branch, think that's why drivers get more of a black mark than the signaller, as the drivers route trained supposed to look out for this type of thing, but being human mistakes do happen.

It's often not as simple as that though. In many cases, it'll be too late by the time you can see the junction signal. Drivers are expected to identify a wrong route offered by other 'clues', such as a flashing yellow sequence where the diverging route is the wrong one, or greens where you'd expect to be brought down for a diverging route, etc..

 

[Tom Quinne]

From what I gather a signallers telling off is considerably less career threatening than a train driver. It’s a big deal from a drivers perspective.

ARS very rarely wrong routes to be fair to it, it’s been known though.

If a Signaller wrong routes it’s noted, there is paperwork to complete - to many wrong routes and you’ll having a chat with your LOM.

If you consider how many routes we set in a hour it becomes very easy especially under stress to misread a headcode and wrong route, usually you’ll notice and cancel the route it there is time without a COA, if it’s to late you’ll have to contact the driver via the GSMR.

If a Signaller calls a incorrect route, and the driver takes its it 50/50 blame - but the driver will get the ****ty end of the stick that’s for sure.

 

[Tom Quinne]

I’ll admit I had a wrong route, lucky the driver was on the ball and stopped at the offending signal.

The train was literally the only of the day that retains a U headcode but diverts via another route before changing ends to rejoin the normal route.

It’s very easy to Signal 11 trains with the same U headcode the “normal way” then miss the odd ball!

 

[Dieseldriver]

Of course, there's been the odd stalemate the other way round, late at night, when the signaller has allowed a possession to go ahead, believing from their notices that the last train to call at Redhill had already run, whereas the next driver has then stopped at Stoats Nest Jn shortly afterwards, stating their schedule card said they are still booked to call, and refusing to take the wrong route...

Put it this way, many taxis from Horley have had to be arranged from time to time...



Hurst Green Junction by any chance? Although that might have been more recently.

A driver took the proceed aspect on the GPL shunt signal at Hurst Green, in order to head Down from the Up East Grinstead to Down Uckfield line, after confirming the route with the signaller (as required by the local rules). The signaller did not, however, mention that the next signal was at danger. This next signal is in close proximity, round a blind bend, and normally protected by a single yellow during normal three-aspect approach from the Down EG. Of course the driver did not have said usual warning, by means of a single yellow, that the signal was at danger, only having seen the two whites on the shunt signal instead. So they took power for the 70mph limit after the shunt, and went straight past the red around the corner.

The argument by the TOC was, allegedly, that there was a high and very predictable risk the driver would not anticipate the next signal being held at danger, which is in any case extremely rare - let alone after seeing double whites and not a single yellow. They believed the signaller should have advised the driver of the unusual sequence during their phone call before the shunt.

The Network Rail (or predecessors') argument, which was (unfortunately for the driver & co.) entirely correct, was that the driver should have expected the most restrictive aspect at the next signal, seeing as shunt signals never usually have any way to display the possible aspect of the next signal, and there is never an intended meaning as such.

I find it incredible that the TOC in question attempted to blame the Signaller if that is true. Don't get me wrong, it is one of the 'harsher' traps for a Driver to fall into and it's always gutting to hear of a colleague who has had such an incident but it is still the Drivers fault.

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

It's often not as simple as that though. In many cases, it'll be too late by the time you can see the junction signal. Drivers are expected to identify a wrong route offered by other 'clues', such as a flashing yellow sequence where the diverging route is the wrong one, or greens where you'd expect to be brought down for a diverging route, etc..

Try Southcote Junction on the Down Westbury, just outside of Reading.
Fast approach (50-60mph) and no PRI indicator or flashing yellows!
I’m surprised a Voyager hasn’t gone for a jaunt towards the B&H, or a HST towards the SWML before; my guessing is that TVSC’s ARS mitigates that?

 

[Geezertronic]

Several years ago, I was on a Euston to Birmingham New Street Pendolino that went charging through Rugby at line speed then had an emergency brake application as we'd been routed down the Trent Valley instead of towards Coventry. How much notice would a driver get there if their route was wrong? The driver had to walk through the train and reverse into Rugby before we could proceed via the correct route

 

[Dren Ahmeti]

Several years ago, I was on a Euston to Birmingham New Street Pendolino that went charging through Rugby at line speed then had an emergency brake application as we'd been routed down the Trent Valley instead of towards Coventry. How much notice would a driver get there if their route was wrong? The driver had to walk through the train and reverse into Rugby before we could proceed via the correct route

Not much! There is only a PRI (Preliminary Route Indicator) at Trent Valley Junction, which looks like this:

Which makes stopping at line speed very difficult indeed!

 

[tsr]

I find it incredible that the TOC in question attempted to blame the Signaller if that is true. Don't get me wrong, it is one of the 'harsher' traps for a Driver to fall into and it's always gutting to hear of a colleague who has had such an incident but it is still the Drivers fault.

Oh quite, it's just that mitigation and indeed prevention would have been incredibly easy (there would have been a rather unusual reason of some sort for signalling a train in that way, so it's not out of the question that an explanation might have helped during the initial phone call).

Perhaps more interesting are the incidents where a rare feature of a particular line or type of rolling stock means a train can be wrongly routed to take a route, but nobody realises that such a wrong route can even occur until after it happens... and no, I'm not thinking of Blackfriars...

 

[driver_m]

Several years ago, I was on a Euston to Birmingham New Street Pendolino that went charging through Rugby at line speed then had an emergency brake application as we'd been routed down the Trent Valley instead of towards Coventry. How much notice would a driver get there if their route was wrong? The driver had to walk through the train and reverse into Rugby before we could proceed via the correct route

See my post earlier about that exact same location. There's time to react, but very little of it.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Try Southcote Junction on the Down Westbury, just outside of Reading.
Fast approach (50-60mph) and no PRI indicator or flashing yellows!
I’m surprised a Voyager hasn’t gone for a jaunt towards the B&H, or a HST towards the SWML before; my guessing is that TVSC’s ARS mitigates that?

Yes, providing the correct information is inputted...

 

[philthetube]

True but if the signal should have been clear it will be looked at, both for future spad avoidance and as a means of reducing delays.

I believe a TOC tried to blame a signaller for a signal being at red for a driver SPADing about 20 years ago. I have not heard of it happening since. It is a driver's job to stop at red signals, regardless of the reason of them being red (unless the signal has gone back)

I was not disputing that the driver was to blame, merely saying that the signallers actions will be looked at following a spad, to see if it is possible to avoid repeats.

This would be especially true in the case of a multi spadded signal.

 

[Killingworth]

There was an occasion last year when a Northern stopping service from Piccadilly to Sheffield was incorrectly routed into Platform 1 instead of 2C. The immediately following TPE service towards Cleethorpes was signalled into 2C.

The stoppers are sometimes terminated in 1, usually only when a double unit, so the driver was probably not aware anything was wrong. The TPE driver spotted the error and had to be allocated a different platform causing quite a delay.

I can't understand all the intricacies of signalling control, but it seems the train description codes had been transposed when moving from Manchester to York's control.

Good job the TPE driver didn't get a 3 car through train trapped in a 2 car terminal platform.

 

[matt_world2004]

Do trains with incab signalling have like a GPS which show the route being offered

 

[whhistle]

I suspect that a lot of Joe and Josephine Public do believe that steering a train around bends is part of the driver's job. It's an understandable misconception and shouldn't be ridiculed.

Really?
While I don't doubt people's ignorance, I really don't think they are that stupid to think drivers steer trains.
I'd have thought it's more that they haven't processed what the basics of railways are.
Sorry but it's not understandable in my mind.

There are, of course, many instances where a 'wrong' route may actually initially be a valid alternative route. There's probably beter examples.

West Coast is a good one.
Northbound trains could be routed via Northampton or Weedon.
A driver probably wouldn't question either route.
@driver_m confirmed here.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Or down a line the stock isn't cleared for.

A few years ago, just before 390s came along, a class 47 was attached to the front of the Euston-Holyhead at Crewe, but without taking the 90 off first! Got all the way to Llandudno Junction before anyone noticed.