Driver's door open whilst train moving?

Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Mag_seven

Established Member
Associate Staff
General Discussion
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
6,219
Location
here to eternity
It used to be not uncommon for buses to leave the (front) door open on a hot summer's day back in the 1970s
Ah the 1970's before the "elf n safety" mafia started to treat us all like children! ;)
 

cin88

Member
Joined
16 Oct 2015
Messages
175
Location
Bolton
The 'cab' doors on class 66's are actually external access doors, as they don't lead directly the cab as such. No 1 cab has a pair of short, narrow corridors that lead into the cab (they run either side of the electronics cubicle) and No 2 end has a transverse gangway arrangement, through the radiator compartment.

There are internal doors at both ends (two at No 1 end, one at the other). Shutting the external doors on a 66 makes absolutely no difference to the ambient noise level in the cab. The doors aren't sealed in any way, shape or form. There is about an inch gap at the bottom for starters! The internal doors do a reasonable job of keeping draughts and noise out though. The main reason they seem to be left open is that they are stiff to operate and a finger trap hazard.

On a class 60 both ends have a transverse gangway and, as the doors to the engine compartment are well sealed, the amount of ambient noise is kept to a minimum. Likewise, leaving the external doors open doesn't really make much of a difference either. I personally tended to close them on a 60, but I just push them closed on a 66.
I can honestly say that I didn't know this, I just always assumed that the door on 66s was opened for the same reason you'd open a window.
 

lazydragon

Member
Joined
20 Aug 2015
Messages
42
How warm are the cabs - you'd imagine they'd want some kind of ventilation to keep the drivers on the ball.

Saw a HST pulling out of Paddington last Thursday with the door open, and it was not a warm day.
 

RPM

Established Member
Joined
24 Sep 2009
Messages
1,378
Location
Buckinghamshire
Some drivers open their cab door (not necessarily fully open) as an anti-SPAD reminder when standing at signals (particularly ground position lights) which are situated very close to the front of the train, and outside the driver's immediate line of sight. Obviously drivers would not draw up so tight to a signal in normal circumstances but sometimes a train has to be taken out of a siding in which it only just fits, so breaking the door interlock gives the driver en extra level of protection.
 

SPADTrap

Established Member
Joined
15 Oct 2012
Messages
2,344
Some drivers open their cab door (not necessarily fully open) as an anti-SPAD reminder when standing at signals (particularly ground position lights) which are situated very close to the front of the train, and outside the driver's immediate line of sight. Obviously drivers would not draw up so tight to a signal in normal circumstances but sometimes a train has to be taken out of a siding in which it only just fits, so breaking the door interlock gives the driver en extra level of protection.
What could you break door interlock on with the cab door that doesn't have a DRA?
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
All our EMUs lose door interlock if you open the cab door. 313,317,321,365

Although 317s only loose interlock-you cloud happily carry on coasting at 100mph with a door open and no brake application.

Interesting for 313s as Merseyrail units don't have interlock on the cab doors.

Really? I didn't think MR had 313s but 508s.

If they have 313s then I'm guessing it's down to the DKS overriding interlock like 455s. So where a guard or driver has the door key in (ie the cab being used for door control) it won't be on the interlock circuit.
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
8,258
Location
Somewhere, not in London
The S stock, and presumably 2009 stock as well, have got sealed interlock switches for the cab doors, so they must remain closed whilst in operation. The 1992TS have got a system whereby if the train is being driven manually, it can have the door open, but if it is operating in ATO, it can't - which is a fair system because you don't want to accidentally send a train off into the tunnel with the driver left on the platform!
Ummm...

Neither 09 Tube Stock nor S Stock have any sealed switches in the true sense, they're behind a glass panel that the T/Op can open with a standard key, the operation of these switches is now recorded and flagged in TCMS / TDR.

Sealing the whole door would also be a silly thing on S Stock, given that the compressor control switches and emergency open cutout switch are behind the same door.

The D78 Stock on the District Line can operate this way with the cab door open. I wonder if its still a feature in its new guise?
Given that they're completely rewiring the train, we'll need to wait and see, depends on if you're referring to the Vivarail units or the RAT units though...

How warm are the cabs - you'd imagine they'd want some kind of ventilation to keep the drivers on the ball.

Saw a HST pulling out of Paddington last Thursday with the door open, and it was not a warm day.
I've been on units with well over 2kW of cab heating...(!)
 

Dstock7080

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2010
Messages
1,599
Location
West London
There is the issue that having a cab door open on all modern LU stocks requires operating a (normally non-sealed) interlock cut-out switch, but the corporate blind eye applies here too.
The off-side cab door on D Stock is permitted to be open with only a driver present, no audible alarm is present. As soon as a second person enters the cab, the door must be closed.
The near-side cab door is interlocked but as said can be overridden with an unsealed (at present) cut-out switch.

The S stock, and presumably 2009 stock as well, have got sealed interlock switches for the cab doors, so they must remain closed whilst in operation.
S Stock can only operate with the cab door open in 'RM' restricted manual mode at 9mph.
 

spuddie

Member
Joined
20 Aug 2013
Messages
125
It used to be not uncommon for buses to leave the (front) door open on a hot summer's day back in the 1970s – and it's not so long ago they didn't bother with doors at all in London! So I doubt it's particularly dangerous for the driver to have his door open. As long as it is only the driver!
It was quite common in the breadvan era that drivers had a seperate cab door and they would drive around with that open too.
 

HMS Ark Royal

Established Member
Joined
2 Sep 2015
Messages
2,811
Location
Hull
It used to be not uncommon for buses to leave the (front) door open on a hot summer's day back in the 1970s – and it's not so long ago they didn't bother with doors at all in London! So I doubt it's particularly dangerous for the driver to have his door open. As long as it is only the driver!
Still a common thing to see sometimes moving around the station at Hull - normally they close them before they go on the main road AND NEVER happens with standing passengers
 

SPADTrap

Established Member
Joined
15 Oct 2012
Messages
2,344
All our EMUs lose door interlock if you open the cab door. 313,317,321,365
Yeah as do our 317s and Electrostars. I think I misunderstood what RPM meant but now understand it is used in conjunction with the DRA when right up against signals as an extra reminder.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Although 317s only loose interlock-you cloud happily carry on coasting at 100mph with a door open and no brake application.
I'm sure ours have been modified now so that above 6mph you'd get a loss of interlock as well as a brake application!
 
Last edited:

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,483
Yeah as do our 317s and Electrostars. I think I misunderstood what RPM meant but now understand it is used in conjunction with the DRA when right up against signals as an extra reminder.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I'm sure ours have been modified now so that above 6mph you'd get a loss of interlock as well as a brake application!

They have. The ones on the GN are the only in modified ones left. No ADD indication apart from possible loss of line light and no brake application with loss of interlock.

Mad that they are allowed to run in modified like that.
 

SPADTrap

Established Member
Joined
15 Oct 2012
Messages
2,344
They have. The ones on the GN are the only in modified ones left. No ADD indication apart from possible loss of line light and no brake application with loss of interlock.

Mad that they are allowed to run in modified like that.
Ah yes, I did notice yours are not equipped with ADD. Headaches you can just do without when the doors are being pulled as well!
 

D365

Established Member
Joined
29 Jun 2012
Messages
7,201
Wasn't sure whether this was worth starting a new discussion for, but I noticed that this thread is still open. At first glance it looks like the usual Evening Standard hysteria:

"Mind the doors: Tube driver caught running train with cabin wide open"

Evening Standard said:
This is the extraordinary moment when a Tube driver was spotted travelling at speed with the door of his cabin wide open at the start of rush hour.

The picture, which was captured by photographer Edmond Terakopian, shows a Central line train moving near North Acton station with no physical barrier between the driver and the tracks just feet below.

Tube bosses today said they were investigating the incident and insisted safety was their “number one” priority.
 

NSEFAN

Established Member
Joined
17 Jun 2007
Messages
3,318
Location
Southampton
I thought that drivers having doors open was reasonably common, especially in summer. I've never considered it to be that dangerous given the driver has to be seated to operate the train.
 

Domh245

Established Member
Joined
6 Apr 2013
Messages
5,372
Location
Nottingham
Wasn't sure whether this was worth starting a new discussion for, but I noticed that this thread is still open. At first glance it looks like the usual Evening Standard hysteria:

"Mind the doors: Tube driver caught running train with cabin wide open"
I thought that drivers having doors open was reasonably common, especially in summer. I've never considered it to be that dangerous given the driver has to be seated to operate the train.
Tube drivers don't, but they do have to keep their hand on the deadman's handle, and letting go of it will put the train into emergency braking. It is of course Evening Standard Hysteria - Central Line trains can only have the cab door open when in manual mode (ie with the deadman's handle as a security device), the train won't go in ATO if a cab door is open.
 

LiftFan

Member
Joined
27 May 2016
Messages
222
I always used to see the drivers of the older generation trains with their doors open on hot days - mainly the D and 73 stock trains. I don't see what's so wrong with that given the trains probably don't have air con like the S stock does, neither does it have opening windows like the 72/67 stock...
 

Nym

Established Member
Joined
2 Mar 2007
Messages
8,258
Location
Somewhere, not in London
I always used to see the drivers of the older generation trains with their doors open on hot days - mainly the D and 73 stock trains. I don't see what's so wrong with that given the trains probably don't have air con like the S stock does, neither does it have opening windows like the 72/67 stock...
All of the above (in service) have cab air con, excluding the 67TS...
 

infobleep

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
9,573
A friend sent me a link to the article and said he use to see it all the time in the 80s and 90s, as his grandparents garden backed onto the railway. They said it wasn't a problem then.

I explained that perhaps today was a slow news day or that the Evening Standard wasn't anti railways back then like it is now.

Has the Evening Standard always been so anti railways?
 

Lrd

Established Member
Joined
26 Jul 2010
Messages
3,018
There is cab air conditioning but it is rarely effective and takes a while to cool the cab down. And with the current air quality issues down in the tunnels, the filters are are pretty much useless and just blow the dust into your face.
 

theironroad

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2014
Messages
2,905
Location
London
I read this in the es the other day and couldn't believe how many column words they had devoted to such a non story. I'm sure most of the vox pops were made up as well.
 

Top