• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Driving position

Status
Not open for further replies.

rf_ioliver

Member
Joined
17 Apr 2011
Messages
868
Just wondering about the driving position in trains...I've noticed it is generally on the left hand side of the cab, though in some, 395, Eurostar, HST (?) the driver sits in a central position.

What is the history/reasoning behind this? Is it just for signal sighting and a left-over from the steam days? The need for a second driver or that most platforms are on the left-hand-side?

t.

Ian
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,482
Currently most uk stock has the driver towards the left hand side. I don't know if its just coincidence but mst platforms are on the left to so helps with dispatching trains with DOO or by using flags from the guard in the old days.

A lot of multiple units need the driver over to the side as there is a gangway in the middle for passengers to walk through when in multiple and I suppose the left hand side is always used from tradition and as mentioned above, DOO purposes.

HSTs do have more central positions however its still pretty much on the left hand side. Cabs need a 2nd mans chair for numerous reasons (as was a problem when the HST was designed as it was designed with only 1 chair in the cab until the union kicked up a fuss). A second seat is needed for training drivers, road learning, route conducting, various degraded workings, inspecting the line etc etc.

The new Thameslink trains have a single drivers seat in the dead centre if the cab with all the equipment around them on a curved desk and a second mans chair is behind the driver slightly to the right. I believe this is the first uk train to be designed like this.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,397
Location
0035
A-driver said:
Currently most uk stock has the driver towards the left hand side. I don't know if its just coincidence but mst platforms are on the left to so helps with dispatching trains with DOO or by using flags from the guard in the old days.
This would make sense as I have heard that the reason given for the Train Operator sitting on the right hand side of the 09 Stock on the Victoria line is that most platforms on this line are on the right.
 

Goldfish62

Established Member
Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
10,039
This would make sense as I have heard that the reason given for the Train Operator sitting on the right hand side of the 09 Stock on the Victoria line is that most platforms on this line are on the right.

You are indeed correct.
 

TDK

Established Member
Joined
19 Apr 2008
Messages
4,155
Location
Crewe
Just wondering about the driving position in trains...I've noticed it is generally on the left hand side of the cab, though in some, 395, Eurostar, HST (?) the driver sits in a central position.

What is the history/reasoning behind this? Is it just for signal sighting and a left-over from the steam days? The need for a second driver or that most platforms are on the left-hand-side?

t.

Ian

Off side signals are classed as high risk so I would say it does stem back to the steam days and the signalling as the majority of signals and sinage is on the left so it is a lot safer for the driver to sit on the left instead of the right.
 

LE Greys

Established Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
5,389
Location
Hitchin
Off side signals are classed as high risk so I would say it does stem back to the steam days and the signalling as the majority of signals and sinage is on the left so it is a lot safer for the driver to sit on the left instead of the right.

The Great Western was, as always, the exception that proved the rule. Except for the Counties, all GWR locomotives were right-hand drive all the way up to the end. That was in fact the traditional side to put the driver, simply because it had always been done that way, copying traditional stagecoach practice, which copied charioteers (whose spears were in their right hands, so they sat on the right in case they met an enemy coming the other way). Signal-sighting and tolken-collection issues meant that most railways swapped over around the time of the Grouping. In fact, some A1s were built with the driving position on the right, but this was switched when they were rebuilt to A3s. Some passing stations with island platforms, on the West Highland for instance, used to see trains running wrong line to make tolken exchange easier.

Where British locomotives ran on foreign lines, places where trains run on the right such as Germany or the US, they never bothered to swap over. France, where many lines were British-built, copied us and ran on the left, but swapped their drivers over with domestic-built locos.

Meanwhile back on the GWR, the Britannias were disliked by some crews because the driver was on the 'wrong' side. However, a combination of sitting in the wrong place, smoke deflectors and signals set up to be visible from the usual driver's side led to a number of what we now call SPADs and one serious accident at Milton, where the driver apparently misred a signal, took a crossover too fast and ended up rolling down an embankment. All WR Britannias had their smoke deflector handrails removed to improve forward visibility after this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic#Trains
 

Smudger105e

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2010
Messages
1,012
Location
N 52° 53.492 W 001° 15.493
The Great Western was, as always, the exception that proved the rule. Except for the Counties, all GWR locomotives were right-hand drive all the way up to the end.

I remember back in the 80s when the 73s and 33s ventured onto GWR metals, some drivers enjoyed driving them from the right hand seat, the controls were all there, although the gauges were not quite as visible...
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,482
I remember back in the 80s when the 73s and 33s ventured onto GWR metals, some drivers enjoyed driving them from the right hand seat, the controls were all there, although the gauges were not quite as visible...

Whenever gat ex drivers were being road conducted by a southern man they try and get the southern guy to put their cup of tea infront of the brake handle on the 2nd mans side so that it would go everywhere when the brake is released as both move together.
 

LE Greys

Established Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
5,389
Location
Hitchin
<SNIP> though in some, 395, Eurostar, HST (?) the driver sits in a central position.

HSTs and 91s (and probably 90s, I'm not sure about this) have a secondman's seat on the right because in BR days they always carried a second driver. Apparently, the prototype HST and APT were nearly 'blacked' by ASLEF on safety grounds because they only had a single driving seat, and only when the production design was modified was this threat withdrawn. Double-manning was abandoned around the time of privatisation. I think Pendys and Dellas have a secondman's position as well, but Voyagers have only the central seat.
 
Joined
2 Jan 2009
Messages
517
Didn't the 90s have power and brake leavers allowing them to be driven from the cab door...?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2
 

driver9000

Established Member
Joined
13 Jan 2008
Messages
4,246
Didn't the 90s have power and brake leavers allowing them to be driven from the cab door...?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

90s and 91s had a combined power/brake handle inside the cab door which enabled them to be moved while at the cab door as it isn't possible to look back from the driving seat. I think they were restricted to a relatively low speed when the panel was being used.
 

Mojo

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
7 Aug 2005
Messages
20,397
Location
0035
HSTs and 91s (and probably 90s, I'm not sure about this) have a secondman's seat on the right because in BR days they always carried a second driver. Apparently, the prototype HST and APT were nearly 'blacked' by ASLEF on safety grounds because they only had a single driving seat, and only when the production design was modified was this threat withdrawn. Double-manning was abandoned around the time of privatisation. I think Pendys and Dellas have a secondman's position as well, but Voyagers have only the central seat.
Wouldn't a second seat be required anyway for Instructor/trainee drivers to sit in, as well as anyone else who happens to be travelling in the cab, such as someone inspecting the line or something?
 

A-driver

Established Member
Joined
9 May 2011
Messages
4,482
As far as I'm aware voyagers etc do have a 2nd mans seat, there are no trains without. The voyager seat position is slightly to the left of Center.
 

Boodiggy

Member
Joined
8 Nov 2012
Messages
534
Location
MK
That is correct, voyagers do have a second mans seat. The second mans seat in both Pendos and Voyagers can be moved towards the centre slightly to by sliding them across. Very useful as the forward facing camera in a voyager is in front of the second mans seat. The second mans seat in a Voyager is also positioned a little bit behind the drivers seat.
 

Rugd1022

Member
Joined
19 Feb 2010
Messages
565
Location
Rugby
This is odd - I'm sure posted a reply at around midday today.... am I imagining things or has it been deleted...? If it has, it certainly didn't contain anything offensive... :!:
 

E&W Lucas

Established Member
Joined
21 Jan 2010
Messages
1,358
The Great Western was, as always, the exception that proved the rule. Except for the Counties, all GWR locomotives were right-hand drive all the way up to the end. That was in fact the traditional side to put the driver, simply because it had always been done that way, copying traditional stagecoach practice, which copied charioteers (whose spears were in their right hands, so they sat on the right in case they met an enemy coming the other way). Signal-sighting and tolken-collection issues meant that most railways swapped over around the time of the Grouping. In fact, some A1s were built with the driving position on the right, but this was switched when they were rebuilt to A3s. Some passing stations with island platforms, on the West Highland for instance, used to see trains running wrong line to make tolken exchange easier.

Where British locomotives ran on foreign lines, places where trains run on the right such as Germany or the US, they never bothered to swap over. France, where many lines were British-built, copied us and ran on the left, but swapped their drivers over with domestic-built locos.

Meanwhile back on the GWR, the Britannias were disliked by some crews because the driver was on the 'wrong' side. However, a combination of sitting in the wrong place, smoke deflectors and signals set up to be visible from the usual driver's side led to a number of what we now call SPADs and one serious accident at Milton, where the driver apparently misred a signal, took a crossover too fast and ended up rolling down an embankment. All WR Britannias had their smoke deflector handrails removed to improve forward visibility after this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic#Trains

RHD steam wasn't confined to the GWR. Alll the NER stuff is right hand, and some of the earlier Gresley types.
In all honesty, it doesn't make a massive amount of difference to the driver. Your ability to see anything, is dependent on the curvature of the line, as there is a boiler/ tender side in the way of you seeing round corners. Teamwork with fireman required!
However, if you were more used to one particular arrangement, then swapping to the other would throw you a bit, thus the Western dislike of LHD locos. However, don't forget that you swap from RHD to LHD if you turn a loco, especially on a single line. You have to have the route knowledge to cope with it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
90s and 91s had a combined power/brake handle inside the cab door which enabled them to be moved while at the cab door as it isn't possible to look back from the driving seat. I think they were restricted to a relatively low speed when the panel was being used.

For use with projected DOO operation. Operable up to 30 MPH, then a rapid leap into the main seat required, before the DSD goes off. Not used in service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
HSTs and 91s (and probably 90s, I'm not sure about this) have a secondman's seat on the right because in BR days they always carried a second driver. Apparently, the prototype HST and APT were nearly 'blacked' by ASLEF on safety grounds because they only had a single driving seat, and only when the production design was modified was this threat withdrawn. Double-manning was abandoned around the time of privatisation. I think Pendys and Dellas have a secondman's position as well, but Voyagers have only the central seat.

Pre privatisation, there was a requirement for 125 MPH trains to be double manned.
 
Last edited:

507 001

Established Member
Joined
3 Dec 2008
Messages
1,868
Location
Huyton
For use with projected DOO operation. Operable up to 30 MPH, then a rapid leap into the main seat required, before the DSD goes off. Not used in service.

:roll:sounds fishy to me, I was always under the assumption that it was just for shunting purposes.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,671
Location
Redcar
For use with projected DOO operation. Operable up to 30 MPH, then a rapid leap into the main seat required, before the DSD goes off. Not used in service.

Really? That doesn't sound like it would ever have ended up being an approved way of working! As far as I was aware it was always just for use when shunting at low speed.
 

Mintona

Established Member
Joined
8 Jan 2006
Messages
3,592
Location
South West
The new Thameslink trains have a single drivers seat in the dead centre if the cab with all the equipment around them on a curved desk and a second mans chair is behind the driver slightly to the right. I believe this is the first uk train to be designed like this.

The 395s are pretty much the same as this. I know some of the drivers took some time getting used to sitting in the middle rather than on the left.
 

E&W Lucas

Established Member
Joined
21 Jan 2010
Messages
1,358
Really? That doesn't sound like it would ever have ended up being an approved way of working! As far as I was aware it was always just for use when shunting at low speed.

Never was approved, but the door controls are also provided!
 

jamieP

Member
Joined
27 Feb 2012
Messages
298
:roll:sounds fishy to me, I was always under the assumption that it was just for shunting purposes.

According to the manuel it's only for slow speed shunting movements. Don't see why even uf they were used for DOO why you would use it. Once the doors are shut you would just walk to the main driving position.
 

quarella

Member
Joined
7 Dec 2009
Messages
815
I have always thought how annoying it must be to always have the wiper r occupying a large area of forward vision on Voyagers.
 

E&W Lucas

Established Member
Joined
21 Jan 2010
Messages
1,358
According to the manuel it's only for slow speed shunting movements. Don't see why even uf they were used for DOO why you would use it. Once the doors are shut you would just walk to the main driving position.

What's a "manuel"?
 

E&W Lucas

Established Member
Joined
21 Jan 2010
Messages
1,358
Not sure, I will go and ask Basil. ;)

PMSL!! :lol::lol:

I think it might be one of those things that management issue you with, but which sit in your locker until the day that you retire, whence they go on eBay?

If you look at the relevant 33056, there is a reference to "compliance with the provisions of Section H...."
Far too subtle for some....
 

Tomnick

Established Member
Joined
10 Jun 2005
Messages
5,840
Never heard of that. In any event, the fireman would do the exchange, not the driver!
I think that's been discussed on here previously, and it was agreed that right-hand running at certain loops has only appeared since the introduction of RETB - to avoid problems with sprung points lying the wrong way for access to previously trailing sidings.
 

matchmaker

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2009
Messages
1,511
Location
Central Scotland
I think that's been discussed on here previously, and it was agreed that right-hand running at certain loops has only appeared since the introduction of RETB - to avoid problems with sprung points lying the wrong way for access to previously trailing sidings.

There is right hand running on some of the Highland main line loops and has been for years - to give a straighter run to trains that don't have to cross.
 

LE Greys

Established Member
Joined
6 Mar 2010
Messages
5,389
Location
Hitchin
There is right hand running on some of the Highland main line loops and has been for years - to give a straighter run to trains that don't have to cross.

I'm sure I've seen pictures of steam-hauled trains running wrong line through some of the loops, but a careful scan of available sources reveals them to be modern excursions masquarading, push-pull workings or shunting movements. Looks like I read a bit too much into them. :oops:

Having said that, where did they put the tablet-catching equipment on West Highland stations?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top