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Drop in passenger numbers sees train services cut

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bramling

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Not being on a suburban (i.e. mainly commuter) line I am puzzled why people think a "Sunday timetable" is a suitable option. On Sundays the WCML has almost no trains in the morning but a full timetable for people going home after the weekend.
I imagine we will see a thinned-out weekday timetable posted at some stage, but Avanti's webpage just invites me to either buy a ticket or download a timetable which commenced 15th December!
NRE just says that there is currently "Major disruption to / from London Euston" but absolutely nothing about any amended timetable.
I can only conclude that the booked / advertised timetable is running tomorrow (apart from consequences of the current disruption.)

I’m amazed train services have held up as well as they have. With many isolations to start biting from now onwards, particularly those with pre-existing conditions, this isn’t going to continue unfortunately.
 
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Horizon22

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I expect quite a few traincrew to be sitting around spare over the next few months.

Be interesting if they end up truly "spare" or told to book on remotely and get paid anyway to reduce infection risk.

Any train crew cancellations are going to start ramping up over the next few days with staff self-isolations so the sooner a reduced service comes in the better.
 

Bald Rick

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Not being on a suburban (i.e. mainly commuter) line I am puzzled why people think a "Sunday timetable" is a suitable option. On Sundays the WCML has almost no trains in the morning but a full timetable for people going home after the weekend.
I imagine we will see a thinned-out weekday timetable posted at some stage, but Avanti's webpage just invites me to either buy a ticket or download a timetable which commenced 15th December!
NRE just says that there is currently "Major disruption to / from London Euston" but absolutely nothing about any amended timetable.
I can only conclude that the booked / advertised timetable is running tomorrow (apart from consequences of the current disruption.)

The major disurption is due to a fatality at Bushey earlier this evening that closed all lines. It’s normal timetable for the rest of the week, at least.


Be interesting if they end up truly "spare" or told to book on remotely and get paid anyway to reduce infection risk.

Any train crew cancellations are going to start ramping up over the next few days with staff self-isolations so the sooner a reduced service comes in the better.

The impact of self isolations was felt today, after yesterday’s revised advice from Government re those with certain health conditions needing to self isolate. Unless that advice gets more restrictive, the number of self isolations will increase ‘only’ in line with those who have new symptoms (or household members have them). It will get worse, but not drastically so, for a few days.
 

bramling

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The major disurption is due to a fatality at Bushey earlier this evening that closed all lines. It’s normal timetable for the rest of the week, at least.




The impact of self isolations was felt today, after yesterday’s revised advice from Government re those with certain health conditions needing to self isolate. Unless that advice gets more restrictive, the number of self isolations will increase ‘only’ in line with those who have new symptoms (or household members have them). It will get worse, but not drastically so, for a few days.

Depends how you define drastic. A lot of railway staff suffer from diabetes, although I’m not sure if *everyone* affected automatically has to isolate. I know a few isolations already in the offing for having a high BMI. Some of the “dead mans shoes” depots could perhaps be disproportionately affected.
 

Bald Rick

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Depends how you define drastic. A lot of railway staff suffer from diabetes, although I’m not sure if *everyone* affected automatically has to isolate. I know a few isolations already in the offing for having a high BMI. Some of the “dead mans shoes” depots could perhaps be disproportionately affected.

My point is that those with pre-existing conditions that require them to self isolate would have been doing so from today; and therefore for this group of people it’s not going to be an increasing number who self isolate through this week (except for those who turn 70 in the next 72 hours!).
 

bramling

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My point is that those with pre-existing conditions that require them to self isolate would have been doing so from today; and therefore for this group of people it’s not going to be an increasing number who self isolate through this week (except for those who turn 70 in the next 72 hours!).

It might be though as if some of them are on rest days then the impact won’t be felt until they are rostered to be back on duty. Add into this the increasing number who are isolating due to (allegedly) having a cough or being in proximity to someone who has same. Also it appears not everyone has been immediately aware of the advice about pre-existing conditions, it has been largely overshadowed on the news by the coverage of over-70s.

Where I am the list of “unavailables” has increased considerably today such that multiple cancellations will be inevitable tomorrow. There’s also talk of people isolating when they find out they’ve been in the same room (or cab) as someone who is off with a cough.

There’s also three train crew supervisors off isolating for various reasons, in at least one case BMI. They can probably be covered, but does anyone fancy doing overtime with the epidemic tipped to be about to explode?!
 

Bletchleyite

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TBH with the current guidance you probably don't need any more than hourly on each WCML branch, possibly even less, and 2tph 12-car Euston-Northampton with one carrying on to New St and Liverpool would be plenty.
 

bramling

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TBH with the current guidance you probably don't need any more than hourly on each WCML branch, possibly even less, and 2tph 12-car Euston-Northampton with one carrying on to New St and Liverpool would be plenty.

I took my dogs out for a walk this evening, part of which involved walking alongside the GN. Every (peak-time) train which passed was very empty.
 

43066

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Be interesting if they end up truly "spare" or told to book on remotely and get paid anyway to reduce infection risk.

Any train crew cancellations are going to start ramping up over the next few days with staff self-isolations so the sooner a reduced service comes in the better.

Agreed.

It would make more sense to have the usual number of spare drivers for the level of service as “hot spare” in the depot and for the rest to remain at home.

I can already hear the arguments about who winds up “mess room muggins” and who gets to sit spare in their living room!
 

Horizon22

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I can already hear the arguments about who winds up “mess room muggins” and who gets to sit spare in their living room!

Ha! My thoughts wandered exactly that way too!
 
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js1000

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The platform and train was very quiet this morning compared to a month. I am working from home from tomorrow so add another one to the list.

Clearly this is not a sustainable arrangement. Maybe a case of half hourly services becoming hourly but with doubled up carriages to ensure enough space to mitigate spread? Likewise those with 4tph at 15 min intervals could be pared back to 3tph at 20 mins and increased carriages? As others have said it would be probably be prudent to reduce services from a staffing perspective given some will undoubtedly have to self-isolate but at the same time increase carriage capacity.
 

Horizon22

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The platform and train was very quiet this morning compared to a month. I am working from home from tomorrow so add another one to the list.

Clearly this is not a sustainable arrangement. Maybe a case of half hourly services becoming hourly but with doubled up carriages? Those with 4tph at 15 min intervals could be pared back to 3tph at 20 mins? As others have said it would be probably be prudent from a staffing perspective given some will undoubtedly have to self-isolate.

This will be much much harder to timetable than just reducing the service provision but strengthening services which do run. You'd basically be talking about a full timetable recast for the latter proposal.
 

Wivenswold

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TfL aiming for Saturday/Sunday services next week according to interview with Khan on Radio 4 this morning.
Expect the same on TOCs next week too.
Government looking to move to full (voluntary) lock-down with schools closing on or by Friday. Latter two items from my cherished source in Whitehall.

There's cautious optimism that the virus is being contained but they're still expecting a bump in cases reported in a fortnight, that's what all of these measures are designed to do, flatten that bump.
 
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Are any of the commentators actually involved in the planning (on the railways) for the reaction to the virus or are they simply complaining that a significant change to working procedures, timetabling etc has not been implemented instantly?
 

Bald Rick

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Are any of the commentators actually involved in the planning (on the railways) for the reaction to the virus or are they simply complaining that a significant change to working procedures, timetabling etc has not been implemented instantly?

Some of us are, yes. But I’m not sure I’m complaining!
 

Killingworth

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This morning's car parking thermometer test at Dore & Totley, down from about 80/90 yesterday to 60 today, and some of them will have been workers and patrons in the adjacent ladies haidressers and the restaurant, although they were very quiet. (The car park is free.) On a normal day there'd be 200-250 in the car park and on local roads.

I saw a 6 coach TPE 185 and Northern 150 go through. Both almost empty, although a couple of young ladies waiting to board had their cases with them so maybe the airport is still a destination.

It's unsustainable for any length of time. The passenger levels seen today are possibly lower than the Xmas - New Year holiday fortnight.

It's not just a problem for the railways, of course, but apart from cuts in train catering on East Midlands services the normal timeable seems to be continuing here. Some finer tuning of our national response is urgently needed before many businesses close down altogether, and train and bus services get cuts that may never be restored.
 

SuperNova

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This morning's car parking thermometer test at Dore & Totley, down from about 80/90 yesterday to 60 today, and some of them will have been workers and patrons in the adjacent ladies haidressers and the restaurant, although they were very quiet. (The car park is free.) On a normal day there'd be 200-250 in the car park and on local roads.

I saw a 6 coach TPE 185 and Northern 150 go through. Both almost empty, although a couple of young ladies waiting to board had their cases with them so maybe the airport is still a destination.

It's unsustainable for any length of time. The passenger levels seen today are possibly lower than the Xmas - New Year holiday fortnight.

It's not just a problem for the railways, of course, but apart from cuts in train catering on East Midlands services the normal timeable seems to be continuing here. Some finer tuning of our national response is urgently needed before many businesses close down altogether, and train and bus services get cuts that may never be restored.

It won't be long until you see cuts. Current service levels are unsustainable in the long run for crew numbers/passenger numbers.
 

Wivenswold

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I don't think it hyperbolic to say this crisis will have a huge effect on the UK. Generally I think things will turn out well for us, we're a country united for the first time in about 5 years. One of the biggest effects will be working patterns, they're about to get flexible and increasingly home-based for many.
One initial casualty will be the Class 720s which have a pack-em in, stack-em high capacity that now looks misguided.

I too worry that services will never return to previous levels even if there isn't a major switch to remote working.
 

Bletchleyite

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One initial casualty will be the Class 720s which have a pack-em in, stack-em high capacity that now looks misguided

To be fair 3+2 is quite pleasant if loaded to 3 across (or 3 in a bay of 6/2 in a bay of 4 sitting opposite, in the case of facing seating).

I too worry that services will never return to previous levels even if there isn't a major switch to remote working.

I think that would be good, not a worry. We've spent too long packing our network with excessive frequencies of short trains. This is a chance to rebuild things more sensibly.
 

zoneking

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I am planning to make a journey Friday and Saturday. I think emergency timetables should be published - to leave a skeleton service. Trains are empty. People still need to make 'essential' journeys.
 

Jamesrob637

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Northern will be the company who bucks the trend and STRENGTHENS services during the outbreak

Probably
 

superkev

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Northern will be the company who bucks the trend and STRENGTHENS services during the outbreak

Probably
That a bit unfair as theve you allowed 200 to 300 drivers with risk conditions home home on full pay. All credit for the new management showing some care. Other companies probably doing the same.
I'm sure an emergency timetable will be soon.
And from me a pat on the back to all train and public transport crews who by spending there day surrounded by people must be at some risk.
K
 

Jamesrob637

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That a bit unfair as theve you allowed 200 to 300 drivers with risk conditions home home on full pay. All credit for the new management showing some care. Other companies probably doing the same.
I'm sure an emergency timetable will be soon.
And from me a pat on the back to all train and public transport crews who by spending there day surrounded by people must be at some risk.
K

Thanks for seeing it as a bit tongue-in-cheek. The Northern Twitter feed seems to be mainly people wanting refunds/part refunds for season tickets. But there are still a few complaining of 2-car peak services. Yes it's not easy in travel and transport right now - I'm in said industry myself.
 

CaptainHaddock

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51948130

Text:

'Sunday service' possible every day on railways

Reductions to rail timetables could take effect in the coming days, as train firms deal with staff shortages caused by the coronavirus pandemic.

Services across Britain are now largely empty as most people work from home and avoid non-essential travel.
Contingency plans are being made by government, Network Rail and operators to ensure that vital journeys are still possible.
Certain train lines essential for emergency workers could be prioritised.
Freight could be given priority in places too.

The situation is so fast-moving that the detail of these plans is being worked-out day-to-day. One option is to introduce something similar to a normal Sunday service on every day of the week.

On Tuesday, the Transport Secretary Grant Shapps told MPs that services would be reduced in the short-term "to ensure we don't effectively run ghost trains."
The most pressing problem for train companies and Network Rail is staff shortages, as train drivers or signal-operators self-isolate or call-in sick.
One of the biggest franchises in the country, South Western Railway, had to cancel services this morning. Other companies are also short of train crews as the virus spreads.

The rules over refunds for train tickets are changing amid the crisis. Southeastern has already offered customers their money back on advance tickets. State-run LNER is offering passengers credit instead. Passenger group Transport Focus called on other operators to follow suit. People with season tickets, which they are no longer using because they are working from home or self-isolating, might qualify for a refund.

Transport Focus chief executive Anthony Smith said "people shouldn't be expected to carry on paying to get to work if they are being advised to stay at home."

The advice from the industry is to check with your rail company.

The immediate drop in passengers numbers and revenue for train companies is also causing unsustainable financial pressure. So crisis talks between the Department for Transport and individual private train operators are ongoing. Rail franchise contracts are likely to be suspended, and the government will have to increase the subsidies it pays to ensure that a reduced number of trains can still run. The annual cost of running all train services in Britain is around £11bn. If the government covers the vast bulk of that over a matter of weeks the bill would be hundreds of millions of pounds.

It is also possible that some rail franchises could be nationalised, if the talks between individual train companies and the government fail to reach a position which is commercially acceptable to both sides.

Although one rail boss insisted that the mood of the talks was "really collaborative."
"The railway wants to play its part in a time of need", he said.

Several train franchises were already in financial trouble before the coronavirus outbreak. Negotiations concerning the UK's more troubled franchises are likely to be most complicated. Two franchises, Northern and LNER, are already run by the Government."
 
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221129

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With schools now closing expect to see a reduced timetable a lot sooner or mass cancellations over the next few days.
 
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. Generally I think things will turn out well for us, we're a country united for the first time in about 5 years.
Sadly not if you have tried to shop for many items grabbed by selfish thoughtless people, piling trolleys as high as they can. If that is a united country you are welcome.
 

ScotGG

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Yet MotorcyleAlan that's exactly what I thought! No much solidarity in shops. And i don't think many are impressed with how authorities are handling it and being a week or more behind most other nations in taking action. Schools, hospitals, equipment for NHS staff, renters, self employed, those losing jobs. We are way behind and some people are angry.
 

306024

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I’m sure many will understand that the logistics of totally upending timetables and diagrams at this time is a huge task, and that is only half the job as staff, particularly train crew then have to be re-rostered. Then the whole lot communicated to Control who will need time to absorb the revised plan.

In someways this is comparable to the meltdown after the Hatfield derailment. In that case you knew your resource base, but you simply didn’t know how long it would take to get from A to B as speed restrictions were imposed, altered and removed on a daily basis.

Here you have the opposite with a staff resource that is constantly changing, which can undermine your best laid plans. Rest assured there are a lot of people working very hard behind the scenes to try to achieve what is required.
 
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