Drug users on the train

[SlimJim1694]

Texting BTP is helpful because it builds a profile of where there might be issues to be targeted. They might not always be able to attend but if they're getting regular texts about the local scroats using a particular unmanned station as a drinking den or the county lines cretins misbehaving they can make a better case for patrolling.

Texting is much better than going through the control room in my experience.

Regardless of what they might or might not do blatant drug use on a train is entirely BTP's problem, it is what they are paid to resolve - IE criminality on the railway network, rather than being called out to silly disagreements over Mrs Miggin's super biddy advance saver ticket being for a train two minutes before. It needs reporting otherwise they don't have anyway of knowing what is happening.

If the stats show the crackheads are constantly playing up on whichever route then the pressure builds via the stats and more senior officers who don't like bad stats to deal with them.

With the greatest of respect, while this is what SHOULD happen it is very far from what actually does happen. Between Herne Hill and Brixton the same drug addicts and alcoholics have been plying the trains for years. What are the police going to do even if they did come out? (I've never seen the police doing random patrols along there). The druggies and alkies will be back again the next day anyway.

Or take Swanscombe and Northfleet. These places have been antisocial behaviour hotspots for years and years. Is there ever and staff, police, revenue there? Not that I've ever seen - and it's not because nobody knows about it, but because nobody cares.

 

[DarloRich]

Years of dealing with them and building a rapport with local officers

They do care but when you're in a wide spread and under manned police force intelligence is the most valuable thing going.

Agreed. They are spread very thinly and need clear information to act on. There were some issues on our rural line of the shelters being used for yoof drinking, smoking, a bit of light drug use and criminal damage. Nothing serious but they solved it after information was provided. They also dealt very sympathetically with the poor guy who seemed to be sleeping in some of the shelters. Turned out it wasn't quite as simple as "vagrancy".

Not that I've ever seen - and it's not because nobody knows about it, but because nobody cares.

I suspect it is more to do with resource allocation and priority than not caring.

 

[SlimJim1694]

I suspect it is more to do with resource allocation and priority than not caring.

If that's the case then the resources have been allocated wrong for decades.

 

[DarloRich]

If that's the case then the resources have been allocated wrong for decades.

In your opinion but clearly not theirs.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I suspect it is more to do with resource allocation and priority than not caring.

I think it is probably a bit of both. There are places which have always been hotspots and it will take concerted effort to deal with it. The odd sting here and there won't cut it. It takes effort and it takes money. The effort might not be too productive without the money, but you won't get the money without the effort.

It is possible to change things though, the North London Line was basically one big crack den in the 90s under Silverlink and, for all its faults, it now isn't.

 

[DarloRich]

I think it is probably a bit of both. There are places which have always been hotspots and it will take concerted effort to deal with it. The odd sting here and there won't cut it. It takes effort and it takes money. The effort might not be too productive without the money, but you won't get the money without the effort.

It is possible to change things though, the North London Line was basically one big crack den in the 90s under Silverlink and, for all its faults, it now isn't.

I don't disagree. I would alter your comment slightly to say that despite the effort this government wont give you the money.

 

[fgwrich]

How does texting the BTP help ?

If there is an immediate risk to passengers they are not there to help. In my experience, they are unlikely to turn up and meet the train at the station and, at best, are only available at the London end terminal.

Crime and anti-social behaviour is higher where there is nobody to challenge them.

There's a lot more BTP offices out there than you'd perhaps like to think; for example if you take a journey from Bristol Temple Meads to Paddington, you will pass 5. The issue is, they are understaffed and overstretched and some stations only work to certain times or days. What also doesn't help the BTP is that they can and will often tied to railway related operations (I.e Revenue Operations), meaning that you can lose say 2 to 4 officers per shift to those. I'm sure the BTP would love to have more officers, more offices in stations and to provide even more coverage. But, you have to remember where their funding comes from (Railways not government as BTP is not a home office force), so if the industry wants more, then they need to step up and offer more (£).

The 61016 system is reliable though as this goes straight through to the first contact centre / control room.

 

[SlimJim1694]

In your opinion but clearly not theirs.

Fair point. I guess the what I'm driving at is that in certain locations drug use, drug dealing, street drinkers congregating, crime, disorder, trespass, antisocial behaviour and so forth has been going on for years, has been reported for years and yet still goes on completely unchecked.

It is possible to change things though, the North London Line was basically one big crack den in the 90s under Silverlink and, for all its faults, it now isn't.

Good comparison. Brixton was notoriously bad years ago and, like the NLL, was an open air drugs market. Its not as bad as it was (it couldn't have got much worse!) but still noticeable. Brixton is usually unstaffed and anyone can walk in from the street so I would suggest that the reduction in open drug use at Brixton reflects the gentrification of the area around the station rather than any other initiative. What London Overground have done in staffing stations and making them more welcoming is fantastic and shows what can be achieved.

 

[O L Leigh]

Let's not bring the method of operation into this; it's nothing to do with whether there is a Guard on the train.

I appreciate that you’re trying to avoid this descending into another DOO thread, but I’m afraid that the method of working does have a bearing on the topic. If there is no staff presence at all in the train then people are emboldened to smoke, take drugs or commit acts of criminal damage or anti-social behaviour more openly in the expectation of not being detected or challenged. That’s not to say that these problems don’t happen elsewhere, but the perpetrators tend to be more careful and more furtive in order not to draw so much attention to themselves. The withdrawal of staff from inside the train due to Covid-19 just means that the rest of the network is now experiencing the same issues as those parts operating under DOO.

The best deterrent for this type of behaviour is a member of staff regularly patrolling the train; that person could be an On Board Manager/Supervisor, Travelling Ticket Inspector or any other grade.

For example, if I take a TPE train on an evening (or most TPE trains right now due to the virus situation) there is likely to be no visible staff presence, yet the DOO trains in the Glasgow area that I've been on have a very visible staff presence (I've no idea if that's the case now or not though).

Picking Glasgow’s DOO network as an example is highly misleading due to their omnipresent TEs as you know very well that this level of staffing is not replicated elsewhere.

 

[ComUtoR]

There's a lot more BTP offices out there than you'd perhaps like to think;

I appreciate how many there are and how resources are spread. My concern and issue is with the passengers belief with what is possible and what their expectation may or may not be.

The 61016 system is reliable though as this goes straight through to the first contact centre / control room.

Yes and as a reporting tool I think its excellent. As a response tool ? I have little to no faith in it whatsoever. As Darlo mentioned. If there was a risk then I'd be calling 999 to get the police called out.

My other concern with crime and anti social behaviour on the railway is that its a mobile environment. The crime gets committed and then the perpertrators get off. There is also an issue with trying to get an immediate response, especially from BTP where there resources are spread thin. Even if the passenger notifies the Driver, he/she still needs to stop, contact the Signaller, Signaller calls the Police, a response gets organised and then they still need to get to the train.

Telling people to text 61016 is great. but then what ?

 

[ComUtoR]

Texting BTP is helpful because it builds a profile of where there might be issues to be targeted. They might not always be able to attend but if they're getting regular texts about the local scroats using a particular unmanned station as a drinking den or the county lines cretins misbehaving they can make a better case for patrolling.

This is how the REOs work on our patch. They use the data gained to then set out various blocks and patrols. It does work to an extent but talking to the guys and gals who are boots on the ground see it slightly different. Where you have specific areas of crime it works well. Blocks work and getting cameras up etc does have a effect. But the hit and miss kinda activity continues to go unchallenged. Our 'vomit comet' tends to have REOs at the end/end points because thats where the guys have been sent and from the reporting that's where the demographics show issues. However there is often issues during the journey and there is zero support. They also say that because they are pushed into a specific point the rest of the area is abandoned and they struggle to respond to anything.

Crime is also quite fluid. They hit one area and then as the security increases they simply move on.

I had a long conversation with some REOs yesterday evening and how they are dealing with certain issues. It wasn't good.

 

[SlimJim1694]

I appreciate how many there are and how resources are spread. My concern and issue is with the passengers belief with what is possible and what their expectation may or may not be.



Yes and as a reporting tool I think its excellent. As a response tool ? I have little to no faith in it whatsoever. As Darlo mentioned. If there was a risk then I'd be calling 999 to get the police called out.

My other concern with crime and anti social behaviour on the railway is that its a mobile environment. The crime gets committed and then the perpertrators get off. There is also an issue with trying to get an immediate response, especially from BTP where there resources are spread thin. Even if the passenger notifies the Driver, he/she still needs to stop, contact the Signaller, Signaller calls the Police, a response gets organised and then they still need to get to the train.

Telling people to text 61016 is great. but then what ?

Life would be so much simpler if all railway crime could be committed at Shortlands where there always seems to be a fair sized compliment of BTP hanging around drinking tea in the room on platforms 3+4.

 

[Deepgreen]

As an aside, I found it slightly ironic that someone whose chosen forum moniker is 'startingaparty' was particularly concerned by this!

 

[MotCO]

Definitely text or call it in to the BTP. They will be able to some details from you e.g a description of the persons involved and will use this as intel to build up a bigger picture, for example patrols on the service or services, whether this is just people using on the train

In the case outlined by the OP, when the miscreants were asleep, would it be appropriate to take a photo of them, or is that 'not the done thing'?

 

[Deepgreen]

How does texting the BTP help ?

If there is an immediate risk to passengers they are not there to help. In my experience, they are unlikely to turn up and meet the train at the station and, at best, are only available at the London end terminal.

Crime and anti-social behaviour is higher where there is nobody to challenge them.

Quite. BTP cannot respond quickly to everything. When I had a man on drugs becoming very aggressive to me a few years ago I had to handle it myself. I was sitting on the window side of two seats and he slammed down next to me and was clearly not going to let up until something happened to stop him, which is what I had to do. Having removed him, when I got to my station and informed the guard, he shrugged and said he had to get his train away, which he did.

 

[fgwrich]

In the case outlined by the OP, when the miscreants were asleep, would it be appropriate to take a photo of them, or is that 'not the done thing'?

It depends on personal preference really. If you feel that you can take a photo without putting yourself in danger, then I would say yes. It will then help officers in the course of an investigation by giving them the perfect idea of who to look at / use for intel purposes etc. If you don't, the control room operator will usually ask for a description, which officers can then use in the course of looking through CCTV et all.

 

[InOban]

The fundamental principle is that the police, whether BTP or the rest, depend on information from the public. They can then plan interventions. If they are told that there are people regularly travelling on a particular train they can fit this into their analysis of the supply chain and target it nearer the source, rather than the small fry who are financing their habit by doing the local deliveries.

 

[yorkie]

I appreciate that you’re trying to avoid this descending into another DOO thread, but I’m afraid that the method of working does have a bearing on the topic. If there is no staff presence at all in the train then people are emboldened to smoke, take drugs or commit acts of criminal damage or anti-social behaviour more openly in the expectation of not being detected or challenged. That’s not to say that these problems don’t happen elsewhere, but the perpetrators tend to be more careful and more furtive in order not to draw so much attention to themselves. The withdrawal of staff from inside the train due to Covid-19 just means that the rest of the network is now experiencing the same issues as those parts operating under DOO.



Picking Glasgow’s DOO network as an example is highly misleading due to their omnipresent TEs as you know very well that this level of staffing is not replicated elsewhere.

It's not related to the method of operation though. It's directly related to a visible staff presence. I agree that there isn't anywhere else that has such a visible on board staff presence as the Glasgow electrics, but some lines do see regular patrols by OBMs/OBSs/Guards while others do not.

And not all lines that have Guards see regular patrolling of the train. The person patrolling the train does not need to be involved in the operation of it to be visible; indeed as you correctly say the most visible staff do not get involved in the operation of the train .

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it's fair to say it's related to the presence or otherwise of a visible second member of staff on the train, and not so much related to the method of operation or the precise role of that member of staff, provided part of it is to patrol the passenger cabin. For example on 1990s Merseyrail where guards never went into the passenger cabin at all other than to walk through at the terminus if it was cold or raining, this sort of thing went on (certainly to the extent of dope-smoking) because while a guard was present they never bothered themselves with it.

So it's less a DOO debate (in the operational sense) than a "second member of staff" debate. Indeed, a team of "rentathugs" like the Merseyrail Byelaw Officers might well do better at stopping it than a lone guard who may quite justifiably be scared of leaving the cab.

 

[InOban]

Which OBS wear body cameras? And which trains have CCTV?

 

[peteb]

The last train from Birmingham to Worcester usually has it's fair share of drunks and the occasional weed user. More scary is seeing young kids waiting at quite respectable places for the drug suppliers to arrive by train, anytime of evening.......

 

[Llanigraham]

The last train from Birmingham to Worcester usually has it's fair share of drunks and the occasional weed user. More scary is seeing young kids waiting at quite respectable places for the drug suppliers to arrive by train, anytime of evening.......

And do you report that?
That is the sort of info that BTP and the local drug squad want to hear.

 

[yorkie]

The last train from Birmingham to Worcester usually has it's fair share of drunks and the occasional weed user. More scary is seeing young kids waiting at quite respectable places for the drug suppliers to arrive by train, anytime of evening.......

This definitely needs reporting.

 

[fgwrich]

And do you report that?
That is the sort of info that BTP and the local drug squad want to hear.

Indeed, There's a large BTP office in Birmingham New Street if you wish to report it in person too @peteb

 

[peteb]

Will certainly do when I next see it, but haven't travelled on train since lockdown. Pretty sure authorities aware as part of county lines operations..

 

[BJames]

Pretty sure authorities aware as part of county lines operations..

Probably, but definitely worth giving them a little nudge. Sometimes these things get moved to the bottom of the priority list and a report from the public could help make a difference.

 

[SlimJim1694]

Some of the above posts, while well meaning, make me wonder if we all live on the same planet... report this, report that, text this, tweet that... they'll build a case and target them....

I have lived and worked in the SE metro area for most of my life and nobody has ever done anything serious about it. It's been like this and has been reported for decades.

All the "report it" people please come and spend a few hours travelling up and down between Penge and Brixton (you'll see the same beggars weve seen for years) and on the north Kent line between London and Gravesend and report that. It's been going on for decades. The see it, say it, sorted nonsense just does not wash.

Sorry to sound harsh but I really think we live in a different world to the rest of the country who has all these active guards and responsive police forces. Down here its every passenger for themselves.

 

[Mugby]

As an aside, I found it slightly ironic that someone whose chosen forum moniker is 'startingaparty' was particularly concerned by this!

I thought the same. Frankly, I'm sceptical about the original post.

Whilst I agree that smoking could have been an issue, surely smoke detectors would have picked that up.
The OP assumed that the couple were drug users and went on to say "They slumped in their seats and remained asleep for the remainder of the time I was on the train" He also states he was fearful about touching the door button to move to another carriage but presumably had no such fears when the train approached his stop and he wanted to alight.

Then we have a dozen or more posts telling him he should have texted 61016......To report a couple who were asleep on a train??

I know exactly what I would have done: I would have minded my own business.

The OP has certainly succeeded in starting a party, Cue 20 pages about drug abuse, anti-social behaviour and all sorts of other irrelevant rubbish.
Ever been had!

 

[SlimJim1694]

Ever been had

I have mate. I've made numerous comments, and even a questionnaire, about the very real problems in SE London and Kent and nobody has bothered to give me a serious response.

 

[Ashley Hill]

Whilst I agree that smoking could have been an issue, surely smoke detectors would have picked that up.

Smoke detectors seem to differ in sensitivity. When our 158 toilets were fitted with them if you pressed the test button they would work,but you could smell somebody smoking in the toilet and the alarm remained silent. Same on IETs,you can smell the cigarette smoke coming from the toilet but no alarm! Overcook the steak in the galley and all hell breaks loose .