• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Drunk depot driver sentenced

Status
Not open for further replies.

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,229
Location
London
I’ve never yet encountered an intoxicated colleague attempting to book on, but if I did then I’d not be unstinting in my criticism of them and insist that they book sick and go home.

I agree with what you've said. If they were booking on and hadn't worked a train, I would tell them to go home. If they didn't go home, I would then report it. Easy for me to say without ever being in that position though!

Same for me I think.

If they’d booked on but not driven I’d insist they immediately went home “sick”. I’d also urge them to inform management they had a problem and I’d want to see proof they had done this.

If they’d worked a train intoxicated, that’s a different matter. I’d then have no qualms about immediately reporting them and/or informing BTP.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Elecman

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2013
Messages
2,881
Location
Lancashire
Under the Heath and Safety at Work Act your legally obliged to report any instance of knowing that any safety critical staff are reporting for or working under the influence be it alcohol or drugs to management as soon as possible and taking immediate steps to stop any further breach taking place. If you don’t, and something happens you could well be prosecuted yourself
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,229
Location
London
Under the Heath and Safety at Work Act your legally obliged to report any instance of knowing that any safety critical staff are reporting for or working under the influence be it alcohol or drugs to management as soon as possible and taking immediate steps to stop any further breach taking place. If you don’t, and something happens you could well be prosecuted yourself

I would take them to one side and urge them not to book on, and to go home sick (or otherwise “unfit”), and I’d want to see proof they had contacted management before their next turn of duty. That deals with the safety side of things as far as I’m concerned - the main priority being to ensure that nobody works a train while unfit.

If a someone turns up intoxicated they obviously have a serious problem. At the end of the day, I’d far rather see a colleague getting the help they need to deal with that than out on their ear.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,686
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
It's one thing for a driver to phone in sick or whatever if they're under the influence, but quite another to actually present themselves for work in such a state and be sent home. That demonstrates an intent to work under the influence and really ought to be reported. If you weren't there they would presumably have booked on for duty. That really needs reporting and they need dealing with - if that means dismissal then so be it - they're a danger to themselves and others.

For me much depends if they've signed the sheets.

I don't have a problem with someone being asked "is everything okay?" before such time as they've signed themselves as fit for duty. However once past that point then unfortunately it's game over, as like you rightly say intent has now been demonstrated.

In the example I alluded to up-thread, the individual had not only signed himself as being fit for duty, but left the booking-on point.

Having had real-life experience of what happens in this situation and the cans of worms which can be opened, it's probably easier just to let them get as far as keying on to a train and then BTP will be more interested. The difficulty is that if someone absconds after being told to "come round the back" it becomes rather difficult to prove who said what when, as if the individual later claims they had to book off due to a domestic problem in the absence of witnesses how does one prove they were ever told D&A were being called?
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,229
Location
London
The difficulty is that if someone absconds after being told to "come round the back" it becomes rather difficult to prove who said what when, as if the individual later claims they had to book off due to a domestic problem in the absence of witnesses how does one prove they were ever told D&A were being called?

Very true. I’m sorry to say I’ve also been aware of this kind of thing happening.

A platform staff member where I used to work had something of a “reputation”. He overheard a colleague saying that D&A were at the depot doing random testing and suddenly vanished. Crucially this was before had had been formally asked to take a test (because of course refusal to take a test is a sackable offence in its own right).

He later made an excuse: mother taken ill or similar, which was subsequently revealed to be complete rubbish (his brother also works at the same TOC!).

Needless to say D&A were waiting for him when he next booked on, but he was all clear. He has been tested several times since, and I gather they are now watching him like a hawk, but in the absence of of a direct refusal to take a test, there was simply nothing more that could be done.

The way the process should work, is the way in which I was recently tested, along with several colleagues. A manager walked into the messroom and asked what we were doing. Those of us sitting spare were told we were going to be randomly medscreened and asked who wanted to go first. The first we knew of the process was the formal request to take a test, so there was no opportunity for anyone to pull a fast one!

In my experience it’s often people who are sitting spare, attending safety days etc. who are randomly tested. The last thing any TOC wants to do is delay a train because the driver is peeing into a little pot!
 
Last edited:

O L Leigh

Established Member
Joined
20 Jan 2006
Messages
5,612
Location
In the cab with the paper
Under the Heath and Safety at Work Act your legally obliged to report any instance of knowing that any safety critical staff are reporting for or working under the influence be it alcohol or drugs to management as soon as possible and taking immediate steps to stop any further breach taking place. If you don’t, and something happens you could well be prosecuted yourself

I am fully aware of this. But you have to understand that there needs to be a little sensitivity applied here too, because we're talking about a colleague and, potentially, a friend.

I know that if I went upstairs to report it directly to management the response is more than likely going to be punitive, even if I've managed successfully persuade the person not to book on, whereas if they self-report it's more likely that they'd get a supportive response which would be to everyone's benefit. Therefore this is what I would try to persuade the person concerned to do. I personally don't feel comfortable making a judgement as to whether the person is an inveterate and reckless soak or has simply made a poor choice as a consequence of trying personal circumstances. That's for the boys in suits upstairs to decide. Of those two descriptions, one definitely ought to get a P45 while for the other such an outcome would probably be counterproductive.

But thus far I have only talked about booking-on for duty, as that is the question that was raised. If I was unable to prevent the person from booking on or encountered someone already on-duty in a state of intoxication then I fear I would simply have no choice. That person would need to be stopped from taking a train using whatever means I have available to stop them.
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,125
In my experience it’s often people who are sitting spare, attending safety days etc. who are randomly tested. !
Ive known a couple of bus drivers dismissed as a result of tests occurring on a days course, but I remain unconvinced in those particular cases anyway whether such methods genuinely expose offenders or just cynically target people who might’ve had a drink the night before innocently believing they weren’t required to preform safety critical duties on that particular day
 
Last edited:

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,229
Location
London
Ive known a couple of bus drivers dismissed as a result of tests occurring on a days course, but I’m not convinced in those cases anyway whether such methods genuinely exposed offenders or just cynically targeted people who might’ve had a drink the night before innocently believing they weren’t required to preform safety critical duties on that particular day

TOCs get around that by ensuring that the D&A policy applies to all staff at all times while at work. I’d imagine it’s the same in the bus industry. The fact you are not undertaking safety critical duties on any particular day makes no difference.

The way my TOC’s policy is worded means that, whenever you’re in non-public areas at work, you’re subject to the policy. Even dropping into the depot to pick something up on the way home from the pub, on a day off, would technically be a breach.

That’s exactly the right approach, in my view, as it creates a level playing field and everyone knows where they stand.
 
Last edited:

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,518
Ive known a couple of bus drivers dismissed as a result of tests occurring on a days course, but I remain unconvinced in those particular cases anyway whether such methods genuinely expose offenders or just cynically target people who might’ve had a drink the night before innocently believing they weren’t required to preform safety critical duties on that particular day

Not sure I have much sympathy there. I would guess that company rules cover the hours that they are employed, regardless of likely duties.
With a national shortage of bus drivers just about everywhere I'd be surprised at any such dismissal if there wasn't also some negative issues highlighted previously.
 

C J Snarzell

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2019
Messages
1,506
This is a very sad story in many ways.

The D&A testing done in the police service set a benchmark of 13 mg for alcohol - 35 mg is the legal limit for driving motor vehicles. A cop in my old force was subject to the D&A test years ago and blew 17 when he turned up for work on a 7am start. He'd had a few sherberts the night before which were still in his system. Even though he had not committed any criminal offences, the internal affairs (rat squad) got involved and legged him anyway and he received a written warning and was banned from driving police vehicles for six months and then had to take a retest. Very robust, but as I've said in a previous post, the budget cuts of 2009/10 saw the D&A testing being cut back and unfortunately old habits soon creep back and I'm sure in recent years, many bobbies have turned up for work smelling like a brewery and got away.

One of the things I wanted to ask about this case - if this incident hadn't of happened. Would this depot driver be treated on welfare grounds - would he be referred to Occupation Health if there was a genuine issue with alcohol? Would he be redeployed on non-operational duties providing their was no indication of misconduct?

Not trying to go off subject - my brother was given help and support by his employers when he was bus driving. He went through a very difficult break-up with his ex-partner and suffered with his mental health. He was taken off driving duties until further notice and given other roles which revenue protection work. He never actually returned to bus driving because sadly the DVLA got involved and revoked the PCV part of his licence (he was still okay driving his own car!). He parted company from his employer about a year later on good terms.

Also, would the depot driver's supervisor not be challenged about this whole caper? I know individuals are responsible for their own actions but unfortunately in alot of organisations s**t flies everywhere and line managers and team leaders can get their legs rattled when someone under their responsibility does something wrong?

Just food for thought.

CJ
 

Carlisle

Established Member
Joined
26 Aug 2012
Messages
4,125
Not sure I have much sympathy there. I would guess that company rules cover the hours that they are employed, regardless of likely duties.
With a national shortage of bus drivers just about everywhere I'd be surprised at any such dismissal if there wasn't also some negative issues highlighted previously.
True, perhaps it’s a generational thing where if someone knew they had a day in the classroom , a beer during lunch that might’ve been acceptable previously, is clearly no longer the case
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,229
Location
London
Not sure I have much sympathy there. I would guess that company rules cover the hours that they are employed, regardless of likely duties.
With a national shortage of bus drivers just about everywhere I'd be surprised at any such dismissal if there wasn't also some negative issues highlighted previously.

True, perhaps it’s a generational thing where if someone knew they had a day in the classroom , a beer during lunch that might’ve been acceptable previously, is clearly no longer the case

There are still some ex BR men knocking about who can remember when drivers would think nothing of having a couple of pints during their PNB and heading back out to do their second half! That’s absolutely mind boggling, by today’s standards.

I believe the sea change in attitude came to the railway after the Cannon St. crash in the early 90s, where the driver was found to have traces of cannabis in his system.
 

craigybagel

Established Member
Joined
25 Oct 2012
Messages
5,061
There are still some ex BR men knocking about who can remember when drivers would think nothing of having a couple of pints during their PNB and heading back out to do their second half! That’s absolutely mind boggling, by today’s standards.

I believe the sea change in attitude came to the railway after the Cannon St. crash in the early 90s, where the driver was found to have traces of cannabis in his system.

Indeed. I believe it was common practice back then for rosters clerks to have the phone number of the nearest pub if they needed to contact drivers on PNB!

I believe as well as Canon Street, another contributer to the change of attitudes was the accident at Stafford around about the same time. The driver in this incident was actually seen on the night in question at a party with a drink in his hand by a manager, but was still permitted to work a trip afterwards as overtime, and he killed himself in the process when he crashed into the train in front during permissive working

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1990_Stafford_rail_crash
 

Chris M

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2012
Messages
1,057
Location
London E14
Not trying to go off subject - my brother was given help and support by his employers when he was bus driving. He went through a very difficult break-up with his ex-partner and suffered with his mental health. He was taken off driving duties until further notice and given other roles which revenue protection work. He never actually returned to bus driving because sadly the DVLA got involved and revoked the PCV part of his licence (he was still okay driving his own car!). He parted company from his employer about a year later on good terms.

An internet friend of mine was involved in a similar situation. He (a bus driver) confided in his employers that he was having problems with alcohol (again due to marital issues) and they worked with him to get him the help he needed. Obviously he wasn't able to drive buses during that time but remained employed and was given other duties. I don't know whether the DVLA had anything to say, but he was always hopeful of getting back to driving. Unfortunately, he died (the alcoholism caused complications with unrelated medical issues) before that ever happened.
 

Deepgreen

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2013
Messages
6,340
Location
Betchworth, Surrey
You two are both entitled to think what you want.

Is alcohol dependency and addiction / illness? Yes of course it is.

But if he turns up to work rather than going sick / attempting to get help through the numerous channels the railway has and then operates a train under the influence of alcohol, putting other people’s lives at risk, whether through addiction or not, then I have no sympathy.

ASLEF will support any member who is seeking help for alcohol addiction, but not one who turns up to drive a train pissed, and I think that says it all.

You can make comments from your high horses about “straw man,” arguments all you like. I’m sure the victims relatives of Cannon Street and Eltham Well Hall would be comforted by your sympathy for people who kill passengers though their addiction.
Who's on a "high horse" now? Of course it's not acceptable to drink and drive (blindingly obviously), but all that was being said was that it's not nearly as simple as assuming he could have sought help, or not turned up for work - as has been mentioned, the brain of an addict doesn't think rationally - that's the point. One doesn't have to have any sympathy in order to try to understand the condition.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,686
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
There are still some ex BR men knocking about who can remember when drivers would think nothing of having a couple of pints during their PNB and heading back out to do their second half! That’s absolutely mind boggling, by today’s standards.

I believe the sea change in attitude came to the railway after the Cannon St. crash in the early 90s, where the driver was found to have traces of cannabis in his system.

It’s incredible how long it took for things to change. The report for the Eltham Well Hall derailment is shocking reading in itself, and this came many years before Cannon Street.

Even at Moorgate there was an element of doubt as to whether the driver might have had alcohol in his system. On balance it seems to be generally accepted that this was probably more likely to have been part of the decomposition process, but the matter still seems to have left a chill in the stomach.
 

Antman

Established Member
Joined
3 May 2013
Messages
6,842
It’s incredible how long it took for things to change. The report for the Eltham Well Hall derailment is shocking reading in itself, and this came many years before Cannon Street.

Even at Moorgate there was an element of doubt as to whether the driver might have had alcohol in his system. On balance it seems to be generally accepted that this was probably more likely to have been part of the decomposition process, but the matter still seems to have left a chill in the stomach.
I seem to recall a freight train derailment at Maidstone East in the 1990s where alcohol was a factor.
 

Locomacca

Member
Joined
27 Feb 2020
Messages
7
Location
UK
I am afraid to say that it is still going on, drinks and drugs being taken. As people have stated before i can remember the days when working inside a maintenance depot we would go to the pub in our lunch hour and have a beer and then come back for our afternoons work.
Obviously iam not saying this is right but it went on. I can not speak on behalf or for drivers as all my working life has been in depots including work shop and office. Terrible accidents and incidents have happened over the years and rightly so individuals have been drink and drug tested. Most depots i have worked at over the years have had plenty of random drink and drug tests where you would be stopped at the gate house before you started your shift and tested but i feel over the years this has become less and less resulting in an accident or incident to happen before anyone is called in to do these tests
.
 

Locomacca

Member
Joined
27 Feb 2020
Messages
7
Location
UK
There are still some ex BR men knocking about who can remember when drivers would think nothing of having a couple of pints during their PNB and heading back out to do their second half! That’s absolutely mind boggling, by today’s standards.

I believe the sea change in attitude came to the railway after the Cannon St. crash in the early 90s, where the driver was found to have traces of cannabis in his system.

Im from the BR days and we would regularly go to the pub in our lunch hour we even had the use of the works mini bus .... PS I'm once again I'm not condoning this but it happened
 

johnnychips

Established Member
Joined
19 Nov 2011
Messages
3,676
Location
Sheffield
On Friday, we used to go for a dinner time pre-ordered meal and a beer (not a rail-related industry) and not think of it as unusual or ‘dodgy’. Times change.
 

14xxDave

Member
Joined
20 Oct 2011
Messages
179
Location
Gateshead
Back in the day workers in heavy industry were given a beer allowance. The lads in the forging area had buckets of beer.

There really isn't that sort of heavy industry anymore so the beer allowance is defunct.
 

big all

On Moderation
Joined
23 Sep 2018
Messages
876
Location
redhill
There are still some ex BR men knocking about who can remember when drivers would think nothing of having a couple of pints during their PNB and heading back out to do their second half! That’s absolutely mind boggling, by today’s standards.

I believe the sea change in attitude came to the railway after the Cannon St. crash in the early 90s, where the driver was found to have traces of cannabis in his system.
Yes indeed that was the case until about 92/93, when random drug and drink tests were introduced.

Before that, drinking was part of the culture as part of the norm; indeed if they wanted to sack you for poor attendance or a reason that was difficult to prove, they could simply catch you "drinking on duty " as a reason to sack you whilst ignoring others.

This was the culture at the time. Was it good was it bad? It's just an evolving world where people worked to the set rules or guideline that are constantly changing.

Remember we were very dedicated railwaymen, dedicated to the job who came through the system to become whatever grade we achieved, in line with the standards that were acceptable at the time, and we were not judged by standards that apply now.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,074
Location
Powys
I know of 2 signal boxes that are close to pubs where the signalman of old used to get a pint delivered to them at night. Doesn't happen now though!
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,229
Location
London
I am afraid to say that it is still going on, drinks and drugs being taken. As people have stated before i can remember the days when working inside a maintenance depot we would go to the pub in our lunch hour and have a beer and then come back for our afternoons work.
Obviously iam not saying this is right but it went on. I can not speak on behalf or for drivers as all my working life has been in depots including work shop and office. Terrible accidents and incidents have happened over the years and rightly so individuals have been drink and drug tested. Most depots i have worked at over the years have had plenty of random drink and drug tests where you would be stopped at the gate house before you started your shift and tested but i feel over the years this has become less and less resulting in an accident or incident to happen before anyone is called in to do these tests
.

I wouldn’t say it’s widespread. There is absolutely zero tolerance of drugs and alcohol abuse in the industry nowadays - and quite rightly.

I like a drink but I wouldn’t dream of risking my career, and potentially my liberty, for the sake of a couple of pints too many.
 

Locomacca

Member
Joined
27 Feb 2020
Messages
7
Location
UK
I wouldn’t say it’s widespread. There is absolutely zero tolerance of drugs and alcohol abuse in the industry nowadays - and quite rightly.

I like a drink but I wouldn’t dream of risking my career, and potentially my liberty, for the sake of a couple of pints too many.
I would agree to differ, my years as a contractor working at different depots underground included i have not seen one random D&A test and i know guys many taking different drugs most cocaine and steroids for the gym
 

LOM

Member
Joined
26 Dec 2019
Messages
405
Location
Been and gone.
I would agree to differ, my years as a contractor working at different depots underground included i have not seen one random D&A test

Network Rail carries out a big program of random unannounced D&A screening with Optima Health including for on duty signallers and at DUs. They are out screening folk all the time and they do catch some positive results and refusals.
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,457
Location
Somewhere
I would agree to differ, my years as a contractor working at different depots underground included i have not seen one random D&A test and i know guys many taking different drugs most cocaine and steroids for the gym

Have you reported them?
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,229
Location
London
I would agree to differ, my years as a contractor working at different depots underground included i have not seen one random D&A test and i know guys many taking different drugs most cocaine and steroids for the gym

With just under five years in the industry, I’ve been randomly medscreened once. I’ve known of it happen several times when I wasn’t working.

One former colleague came a cropper due to use of weed - his feet didn’t touch the ground. Goodnight Vienna, no second chances.

If any colleague of mine admitted to taking cocaine, I’d report them with no hesitation, and they’d rapidly become an ex colleague.
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,518
With just under five years in the industry, I’ve been randomly medscreened once. I’ve known of it happen several times when I wasn’t working.

One former colleague came a cropper due to use of weed - his feet didn’t touch the ground. Goodnight Vienna, no second chances.

If any colleague of mine admitted to taking cocaine, I’d report them with no hesitation, and they’d rapidly become an ex colleague.

Amazed if it's only once in 5 years.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top