DSB instagram: SJ, ÖBB & DSB will collaborate on Malmö - Copenhagen - Brussels

[jamesontheroad]

Last night, Snälltåget resumed seasonal service from Sweden to Germany, but now with through carriages from/to Stockholm and a new route through Denmark, via Høje Taastrup and Hamburg Hbf.

That’s great news in itself. But another snippet of news has leaked out, perhaps by accident.

DSB (Danish state railways) sent a social media team to meet the train when it stopped in Høje Taastrup (outside Copenhagen) last night. In their subsequent Instagram post (screen grab below) they wrote in Danish:

“From the second half of 2022, it will also be possible to take the night train from Copenhagen directly to Brussels, when DSB, SJ and Austrian ÖBB deploy night trains on the route.”

This preempts the official announcement by the Swedish Transport Administration of the winner of the procurement, scheduled for August. However, it’s my opinion that since most of Sweden takes late June and July off, the decision has probably been made and communicated to stakeholders ahead of an announcement at the end of the summer. It seems likely that DSB know what will happen, and accidentally referred to it when they celebrated the launch of the Snälltåget train. If the post is edited or deleted later today (when DSB management turn on their computers) we might assume that it is true.

In this scenario, we can assume that SJ operates and markets the train in Sweden, ÖBB provides rolling stock (perhaps current Nightjet material, released by the delivery of new stock in 2022) and DSB provides haulage through Denmark with one of their new Vectron locomotives. Unlike Snälltåget, it seems this train will definitively serve Copenhagen H, and not the suburban Høje Taastrup.

Note to moderators: the previous thread on this subject has been locked. Feel free to re-open and merge it if appropriate.

 

[StephenHunter]

There's been a fair bit of shade thrown between the state and private operators over these trains, haven't there?

 

[jamesontheroad]

SJ spokesperson writes (on a Facebook group I don’t have access to):

Unfortunately, the statement about a DSB / ÖBB / SJ night train to Brussels is not correct. In any case, I can completely deny SJ's participation.

DSB’s Instagram post has been edited.

There's been a fair bit of shade thrown between the state and private operators over these trains, haven't there?

Certainly between MTRX and SJ, occasionally between Snälltåget and SJ and maybe more to come between Flixtrain and SJ. All have slightly different relationships and attitudes to selling tickets via SJ, whose website and app enjoy a kind of inherited prominence when people think of the railway. SJ, after all, has the same brand name as the old state owned railway. It’s as if, in the 1990s, Britain’s railways were privatised but a monolithic private company owned by the government was allowed to continue operating trains under the brand “British Rail.”

 

[Stephen Lee]

Last night, Snälltåget resumed seasonal service from Sweden to Germany, but now with through carriages from/to Stockholm and a new route through Denmark, via Høje Taastrup and Hamburg Hbf.

That’s great news in itself. But another snippet of news has leaked out, perhaps by accident.

DSB (Danish state railways) sent a social media team to meet the train when it stopped in Høje Taastrup (outside Copenhagen) last night. In their subsequent Instagram post (screen grab below) they wrote in Danish:



This preempts the official announcement by the Swedish Transport Administration of the winner of the procurement, scheduled for August. However, it’s my opinion that since most of Sweden takes late June and July off, the decision has probably been made and communicated to stakeholders ahead of an announcement at the end of the summer. It seems likely that DSB know what will happen, and accidentally referred to it when they celebrated the launch of the Snälltåget train. If the post is edited or deleted later today (when DSB management turn on their computers) we might assume that it is true.

In this scenario, we can assume that SJ operates and markets the train in Sweden, ÖBB provides rolling stock (perhaps current Nightjet material, released by the delivery of new stock in 2022) and DSB provides haulage through Denmark with one of their new Vectron locomotives. Unlike Snälltåget, it seems this train will definitively serve Copenhagen H, and not the suburban Høje Taastrup.

Note to moderators: the previous thread on this subject has been locked. Feel free to re-open and merge it if appropriate.

Imagine Snälltåget, ÖBB and DSB collaborate for the folloeing EN routes mentioned in the document. But I wondered if DSB have enough Vectron for this or they need to hire loco?
EN 33/34: Stockholm – Paris/Amsterdam
EN 35/36: Stockholm – Wien/Budapest
EN 41/42: Stockholm – Berlin

https://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/EN/Documents/E/concept-tee-2-0.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

 

[Gloster]

DSB have so far received twenty-four of the first delivery of twenty-six EB and there are a further sixteen to come in the second delivery. It seems as though this delivery may follow on fairly soon after the first one, so DSB should not be short of locos to cover the sleepers and still be able to withdraw the ME diesels by the end of the year.

EDIT: DSB’s website says the last of the second delivery should arrive in mid-2022. They have an option for a further two locos.

 

[jamesontheroad]

Imagine Snälltåget, ÖBB and DSB collaborate for the folloeing EN routes mentioned in the document. But I wondered if DSB have enough Vectron for this or they need to hire loco?
EN 33/34: Stockholm – Paris/Amsterdam
EN 35/36: Stockholm – Wien/Budapest
EN 41/42: Stockholm – Berlin
https://www.bmvi.de/SharedDocs/EN/Documents/E/concept-tee-2-0.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

Snälltåget and parents Transdev have been openly critical of the public procurement of international trains, so I think it would take a dramatic change of attitude for them to want to be involved. Quite simply, they have done their research and found a niche that works, which is open access and couchette + seats only for night trains. Ruining a procured train makes additional demands in terms of service standard (they’d need to acquire rolling stock they don’t already own for sleeping compartments etc). Remember that Stockholm-Berlin is prefixed ‘D’ and not ‘EN’ because it doesn’t meet the standards of a “EuroNight” train.

 

[daodao]

Snälltåget and parents Transdev have been openly critical of the public procurement of international trains

Quite rightly so: the public procurement of international trains is a gross misuse of taxpayers' funds. International passenger trains should either pay their way (which few do) or be withdrawn. It is a dwindling market except for short cross-border hops in densely populated regions.

I note that there are no longer any direct services between Stockholm and Oslo (or for that matter Lisbon and Madrid) and that all Thello services have now been withdrawn. The few remaining long-distance services between Germany and Denmark are now all routed via Padborg/Flensburg.

The future for international journeys in Europe is by low-cost air travel, provided by the likes of Ryanair and Wizzair.

 

[jamesontheroad]

I note that there are no longer any direct services between Stockholm and Oslo (or for that matter Lisbon and Madrid) and that all Thello services have now been withdrawn. The few remaining long-distance services between Germany and Denmark are now all routed via Padborg/Flensburg.

We can agree to disagree with each other on lots of points, but regarding Stockholm-Oslo one correction. These services were diminished pre-COVID due to extensive engineering works in Norway. A full service is expected to resume with shorter journey times in the near future. Vy has also been speculating about running a commercial (non-subsidised) service Oslo - Stockholm with through cars for the procured Stockholm-Narvik night train.

 

[JonasB]

We can agree to disagree with each other on lots of points, but regarding Stockholm-Oslo one correction. These services were diminished pre-COVID due to extensive engineering works in Norway. A full service is expected to resume with shorter journey times in the near future.

And the fact that there are no Stockholm-Oslo trains at the moment is due to Covid and Norwegian border restrictions. Without Covid, there would have been 3 daily IC trains, planned to be upgraded to X2000s in the near future.

 

[43096]

DSB have so far received twenty-four of the first delivery of twenty-six EB and there are a further sixteen to come in the second delivery. It seems as though this delivery may follow on fairly soon after the first one, so DSB should not be short of locos to cover the sleepers and still be able to withdraw the ME diesels by the end of the year.

EDIT: DSB’s website says the last of the second delivery should arrive in mid-2022. They have an option for a further two locos.

Once the 8 new Talgo sets are delivered for the Hamburg service - which will be top'n'tailed by the 16 additional Vectrons - they are very unlikely to have spare locos, as they will be fully committed to the double-deck sets and the Hamburg sets.

 

[Stephen Lee]

And the fact that there are no Stockholm-Oslo trains at the moment is due to Covid and Norwegian border restrictions. Without Covid, there would have been 3 daily IC trains, planned to be upgraded to X2000s in the near future.

are there enough x2000s freed up?

 

[JonasB]

are there enough x2000s freed up?

That can be a problem. SJ probably counted on their new high speed trains freeing up X2000s. But that procurement has been delayed.

 

[Stephen Lee]

That can be a problem. SJ probably counted on their new high speed trains freeing up X2000s. But that procurement has been delayed.

What new high-speed trains

 

[JonasB]

What new high-speed trains

They have being working on new high speed trains (project name Delta) for a couple of years, and last year SJ ordered 25 Zefiros from Bombardier, with options for 15 more. The trains were supposed to seat around 360 passengers and be capable of 250 km/h. But the order was appealed and the procurement is now stuck in the legal system.

 

[30907]

The few remaining long-distance services between Germany and Denmark are now all routed via Padborg/Flensburg.

The service continues at its longterm capacity taking slightly longer in order to clear the way for ithe new highspeed route.
(Lisbon-Madrid which you also mention has never been busy - a new day train is being discussed currently).
In general, international day service are thriving.

 

[daodao]

In general, international day service are thriving.

There are a lot of examples of the withdrawal of through international services, for example (as mentioned in my previous post) Thello withdrew the international services from Milan to Nice at the start of July 2021. There is a role for rail links between major city pairs not too far apart (generally less than 3-4 hours by train), such as Vienna to Budapest. However, there is a very limited market for longer distance trains, including sleepers, as flying is generally cheaper and quicker. The advent of low cost airlines has revolutionised air travel in Europe and sounded the death knell for long-distance international rail travel.

 

[Austriantrain]

There are a lot of examples of the withdrawal of through international services, for example (as mentioned in my previous post) Thello withdrew the international services from Milan to Nice at the start of July 2021. There is a role for rail links between major city pairs not too far apart (generally less than 3-4 hours by train), such as Vienna to Budapest. However, there is a very limited market for longer distance trains, including sleepers, as flying is generally cheaper and quicker. The advent of low cost airlines has revolutionised air travel in Europe and sounded the death knell for long-distance international rail travel.

Absurd. In Central Europe, international day trains are thriving. This is because we know how to run them, ie not as stand-alone services but integrated with domestic services.

Many examples between Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Hungary, Czech Republic etc.

But why let facts get in the way of good ideology?

As to night trains, the jury is still out, but before Covid, demand was noticeably on the increase… where there was an decent offer, mind.

 

[daodao]

Many examples between Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Hungary, Czech Republic etc.

Mitteleuropa is the exception, because major city pairs are not too far apart; I gave the example of Budapest to Vienna in my previous post.

 

[Austriantrain]

Mitteleuropa is the exception, because major city pairs are not too far apart; I gave the example of Budapest to Vienna in my previous post.

You are wrong. Central Europe is the exception, because, as I said, we integrate international with domestic services. Vienna - Budapest would not work the way it does if it wasn’t also a domestic Hungarian service and also if it didn’t continue to Munich, serving several domestic and international city pairs along the way.

 

[daodao]

You are wrong. Central Europe is the exception, because, as I said, we integrate international with domestic services. Vienna - Budapest would not work the way it does if it wasn’t also a domestic Hungarian service and also if it didn’t continue to Munich, serving several domestic and international city pairs along the way.

That is only possible because of Schengen. Otherwise, if international and domestic services are combined, major delays can occur at frontiers due to border checks. I remember travelling to Berlin many years ago from Ostend (with changes at Aachen/Cologne) and recall the rigorous check at Marienborn in the middle of the night by German police accompanied by fierce dogs.

 

[Austriantrain]

That is only possible because of Schengen. Otherwise, if international and domestic services are combined, major delays can occur at frontiers due to border checks. I remember travelling to Berlin many years ago from Ostend (with changes at Aachen/Cologne) and recall the rigorous check at Marienborn in the middle of the night by German police accompanied by fierce dogs.

So what? Most of the EU is in Schengen.

 

[JonasB]

As to night trains, the jury is still out, but before Covid, demand was noticeably on the increase… where there was an decent offer, mind.

And during Covid they have done pretty good. Travelling in a private compartment seems like a pretty good option in a pandemic.

 

[30907]

There are a lot of examples of the withdrawal of through international services, for example (as mentioned in my previous post) Thello withdrew the international services from Milan to Nice at the start of July 2021.

Well, that's one valid example (which may or may not have been exacerbatedy by Covid). Meanwhile TI and Italo are gearing up for open-access to Lyon and Paris.

 

[Austriantrain]

Well, that's one valid example (which may or may not have been exacerbatedcby Covid).

It’s actually a bad example. The only way to make Milano - Cote d‘Azur work would be with SNCF and TI cooperation. There is simply not enough traffic potential for international-only trains to Nice or even further to Marseille. What would be needed would be a cooperation service Milano - Marseille, usable for both domestic and international services. Unfortunately, neither SNCF not TI are interested in such a service.

 

[30907]

It’s actually a bad example. The only way to make Milano - Cote d‘Azur work would be with SNCF and TI cooperation. There is simply not enough traffic potential for international-only trains to Nice or even further to Marseille.

I agree.

 

[AlbertBeale]

There are a lot of examples of the withdrawal of through international services, for example (as mentioned in my previous post) Thello withdrew the international services from Milan to Nice at the start of July 2021. There is a role for rail links between major city pairs not too far apart (generally less than 3-4 hours by train), such as Vienna to Budapest. However, there is a very limited market for longer distance trains, including sleepers, as flying is generally cheaper and quicker. The advent of low cost airlines has revolutionised air travel in Europe and sounded the death knell for long-distance international rail travel.

Flying seems cheaper in selfish, personal, short-term monetary terms. But it's actually an environmentally expensive disaster - the idea that people can continue to make a significant number of journeys in Europe by plane is suicidal.

 

[island]

Sadly, until and unless the true non-monetary costs of air travel are passed on, nothing will change.

A good start would be taxing jet fuel.

 

[JonasB]

A good start would be taxing jet fuel.

Which the EU now proposes.