DSB Talgo and Vectron+DSB EMU Tender

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Stephen Lee

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apart from Hamburg-Copenhagen I wondered if Hamburg-Arhus will also get the Vectron Sandwich+Talgo in the middle? Or may use the new EMUs instead?
Also are there news about the DSB EMU Tender winner???
 
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jamesontheroad

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The press material issued around the time of the order stated clearly that eight Talgo sets were for Hamburg-Copenhagen. But if my maths are correct, the pre-COVID diagram (three roundtrips a day, plus one overnight roundtrip during the summer) could by covered with 4 or 5 sets. Therefore the eight sets ordered should be enough to cover both Hamburg-Copenhagen and Hamburg-Aarhus.

EDIT/automerge:


As my maths teacher used to say, always show your working. So, reading off table 50 in the summer 2020 European Railway Timetable, here's the peak summer season schedule, which can be covered by four trains.

IC399: Københaven H 0005 / Hamburg Hbf 0624 >>> IC396 Hamburg Hbf 0853 / Københaven H 1333
IC393: Københaven H 0726 / Hamburg Hbf 1202 >>> IC394 Hamburg Hbf 1253 / Københaven H 1733
IC395: Københaven H 1126 / Hamburg Hbf 1602 >>> IC392 Hamburg Hbf 1653 / Københaven H 2133
IC397: Københaven H 1526 / Hamburg Hbf 2002 >>> IC398 Hamburg Hbf 2356 / Københaven H 0655

Outside the summertime peak, IC397 overnights in Hamburg and returns as IC396.

Second EDIT...

Aarhus is a bit harder to read from the tables. IC382 is summertime only, but isn't matched by an equivalent summertime only service in the opposite direction, so I presume that maybe IC385 is doubled up in the summer and divides in Hamburg to serve both IC382 and IC386. The rest of the year I presume it stays overnight in Hamburg to return as IC386.

IC383 Aarhus 0937 / Hamburg Hbf 1402 >>> IC384 Hamburg Hbf 1450 / Aarhus 1918
IC385 Aarhus 1337 / Hamburg Hbf 1802 >>> IC382 Hamburg Hbf 1901 / Fredericia 2212 and/or IC386 Hamburg Hbf 1053 / Aarhus 1518?

So it seems obvious that eight trains will give DSB enough capacity to use the Talgos between Aarhus and Hamburg as well. That's not to say that with the new trains (and in a decade or so, the new tunnel) DSB aren't planning to increase frequency...
 
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Gloster

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There are a number of factors here. When the service ran via the direct route, Copenhagen-Hamburg used to go up to six or seven trains a day in peak summer, but down to three in the very off season. It now (pre-Covid) runs a somewhat thinner service the long-way round, but DSB seems to be aiming to work up to a two-hourly frequency. Eventually it might be hourly, with alternating fast and semi-fast trains once the link opens (2029?), when the journey time will be drastically reduced (2h. 39m. has been quoted). However, there is a possibility that the trains will work through to Berlin.

Aarhus-Hamburg does seen to be a poor relation: I think it was only two return trips a day and a 2017 working paper suggests that situation will be largely unchanged until the link opens. I suspect that it will be a case of changing at Kolding until around 2030.

It doesn’t appear that the new coaches are intended for the Aarhus trains, just the Copenhagen ones. I think that the EMUs will be AC only and so not suitable for Germany.
 

popeter45

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The press material issued around the time of the order stated clearly that eight Talgo sets were for Hamburg-Copenhagen. But if my maths are correct, the pre-COVID diagram (three roundtrips a day, plus one overnight roundtrip during the summer) could by covered with 4 or 5 sets. Therefore the eight sets ordered should be enough to cover both Hamburg-Copenhagen and Hamburg-Aarhus.

EDIT/automerge:


As my maths teacher used to say, always show your working. So, reading off table 50 in the summer 2020 European Railway Timetable, here's the peak summer season schedule, which can be covered by four trains.

IC399: Københaven H 0005 / Hamburg Hbf 0624 >>> IC396 Hamburg Hbf 0853 / Københaven H 1333
IC393: Københaven H 0726 / Hamburg Hbf 1202 >>> IC394 Hamburg Hbf 1253 / Københaven H 1733
IC395: Københaven H 1126 / Hamburg Hbf 1602 >>> IC392 Hamburg Hbf 1653 / Københaven H 2133
IC397: Københaven H 1526 / Hamburg Hbf 2002 >>> IC398 Hamburg Hbf 2356 / Københaven H 0655

Outside the summertime peak, IC397 overnights in Hamburg and returns as IC396.

Second EDIT...

Aarhus is a bit harder to read from the tables. IC382 is summertime only, but isn't matched by an equivalent summertime only service in the opposite direction, so I presume that maybe IC385 is doubled up in the summer and divides in Hamburg to serve both IC382 and IC386. The rest of the year I presume it stays overnight in Hamburg to return as IC386.

IC383 Aarhus 0937 / Hamburg Hbf 1402 >>> IC384 Hamburg Hbf 1450 / Aarhus 1918
IC385 Aarhus 1337 / Hamburg Hbf 1802 >>> IC382 Hamburg Hbf 1901 / Fredericia 2212 and/or IC386 Hamburg Hbf 1053 / Aarhus 1518?

So it seems obvious that eight trains will give DSB enough capacity to use the Talgos between Aarhus and Hamburg as well. That's not to say that with the new trains (and in a decade or so, the new tunnel) DSB aren't planning to increase frequency...
may me mis-rembering but when i took IC397 2 years ago i swear a portion was instead to Aarhus instead of Hamburg
if i am remebering correctly and it does split at ferderica will that be over or will the Aarhus route become a train change?
 

Gloster

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Copenhagen-Hamburg trains sometimes used to attach or detach portions at Nykøbing F., or even Rødby. I think it is only in the last year or two that direct trains to Hamburg have run via Odense in the daytime. Previously you had to change somewhere: I have done it with a change at Kolding.
 

Gloster

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I assume you mean 25kV AC only, as Germany is also AC (but 15kV).
Yes. Danish voltage etc. only appears to be the plan. After the IC4 DSB does not to complicate things. A small fleet of 15kV would be all that was needed for the few trains to Germany, or even Sweden, in a large fleet, but DSB is going for standardisation. As a cynic, I suspect that DSB does not want to have ill-informed politicians berating them for not learning the lessons of the IC4.
 
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43096

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Yes. Danish voltage etc. only appears to be the plan. After the IC4 DSB does not to complicate things. A small fleet of 15kV would be all that was needed for the few trains to Germany, or even Sweden, in a large fleet, but DSB is going for standardisation. As I cynic, I suspect that DSB does not want to have ill-informed politicians berating them for not learning the lessons of the IC4.
That certainly appears to be the case, although the Talgo order is a bit odd: they'll be hoping DB de-bug those with their order. The really low risk option would have been to order RailJet sets to go with the Vectrons.
 

JonathanP

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The DB order is for Talgo Locomotives(they have never built one before) and Talgo Driving Trailers(they have never built one of those before either), wheras DSB are only getting coaches. So if anyone is going to have trouble it's the Germans!
 

Austriantrain

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The DB order is for Talgo Locomotives(they have never built one before) and Talgo Driving Trailers(they have never built one of those before either), wheras DSB are only getting coaches. So if anyone is going to have trouble it's the Germans!

The DB order is really surprising. The logical course would indeed have been to order Railjets (The second version of which is currently being built for ÖBB).

OTOH there probably was a wish not to buy everything from Siemens. DB (even if it was DB Regio) has of course done this before, with the Skoda sets for Munich - Nurnberg. It has not been a success so I hope for them it is not a case of „burned twice“.
 

duesselmartin

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The DB order is really surprising. The logical course would indeed have been to order Railjets (The second version of which is currently being built for ÖBB).

OTOH there probably was a wish not to buy everything from Siemens. DB (even if it was DB Regio) has of course done this before, with the Skoda sets for Munich - Nurnberg. It has not been a success so I hope for them it is not a case of „burned twice“.
not sure how much public tender plays a role here.
There is certainly a feeling not to buy Bombardier after the IC2 experience.
 

Austriantrain

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not sure how much public tender plays a role here.
There is certainly a feeling not to buy Bombardier after the IC2 experience.

It would have been easy to specify the tender in a way that excludes unproven products. Happens all the time.
 

Stephen Lee

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not sure how much public tender plays a role here.
There is certainly a feeling not to buy Bombardier after the IC2 experience.
Anyway it's still a couple of days before Alstom acquisition to Bombardier so I hope the reliability of Bombardier will get improved after Alstom's acquisition.
 

Austriantrain

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Anyway it's still a couple of days before Alstom acquisition to Bombardier so I hope the reliability of Bombardier will get improved after Alstom's acquisition.

Well, there are strong rumors that ÖBB will cancel its Talent3 order, since approval is long overdue and since Alstom is required to divest the Talent portfolio, there is not much confidence that things will improve. Alstom has not a lot of interest in it, and nobody knows who the buyer will be.

Apparently some other Bombardier-platforms such as TRAXX and their Trams are considered much better (but it’s all internet gossip - what is true however is that ÖBB recently issued a tender for new single-deck EMUs with very short delivery timeframe which they would not need if they took delivery of the Talent3 - but this week the tender was cancelled again, supposed to be reissued, but no one really knows).
 

andersj

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Just found this thread on Google, so decided to register and provide some information.

Regarding the ECx Talgo was the only bidder, if I remember correctly. It may have been due to speed requirements, as Siemens apparently have no plans of a 200+ km/h Vectron.

Regarding the DSB Talgo coaches, they will also go on Aarhus-Hamburg once the line to Aarhus has been electrified by the end of 2026. The DSB order includes a framework agreement on further single coaches or whole coach compositions. I hope it will be possible to order driving trailers, after they have proved their reliability at DB. It will be expensive to run the sandwich formations, as the two Vectrons are heavy compared to the lightweight Talgo coaches.

The reason why DSB chose coaches over EMU's for the Hamburg services, is because EMU's are generally more expensive - especially two system EMU's.
 

43096

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Just found this thread on Google, so decided to register and provide some information.

Regarding the ECx Talgo was the only bidder, if I remember correctly. It may have been due to speed requirements, as Siemens apparently have no plans of a 200+ km/h Vectron.
Although, in its publicity material at a trade exhibition back in 2019, Siemens were stating the following according to the RailColor website:

In its booth, Siemens presented its short and long-term plans for the Vectron locomotive. Customers can opt for the following upgrades:
  • now: standard traction 300 kN > 320 kN
  • now: loading run / wash run
  • 2019: semi-automatic brake test
  • 2019: active rotational damper (ADD)
  • 2019: Wifi for VEC (Vectron Eco Cruise)
  • 2020: a new ergonomics and comfort package
  • 2021: Vectron DC gets 6.0MW
  • 2021: reduced maintenance costs
  • 2023: Xload
  • planned: Vmax 230 km/h (now 200)
  • planned: battery power module (BPM)
 

jopsuk

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Talgo Driving Trailers(they have never built one of those before either),
oh yes they have! For the Amtrak Cascades, the Series VIII sets have Talgo driving trailers (older ones have old locos converted to control cars) (some of the Series VIII were built for Wisconsin, also with driving trailers).

And whilst Talgo haven't built standalone locos, they have made electric power cars for the Talgo 250 & 350 and the diesel units for the 250 Hybrids.
 

87015

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oh yes they have! For the Amtrak Cascades, the Series VIII sets have Talgo driving trailers (older ones have old locos converted to control cars) (some of the Series VIII were built for Wisconsin, also with driving trailers).

And whilst Talgo haven't built standalone locos, they have made electric power cars for the Talgo 250 & 350 and the diesel units for the 250 Hybrids.

"oh yes the have!" its been around for 15 years...

 

JonathanP

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I didn't know about the driving trailers, thanks, but as I understand it the locomotive above was a one-off prototype which never went into regular service.

Yes, I was exaggerting in what I wrote. However, I still think it will be a big challenge for them to get a multi-system locomotive and 200km/h push-pull articulated set approved and operational in the Netherlands and Germany, markets they have up till now had little to do with. The recent examples of the Skoda BR102 and the PESA Shark for DB Regio shows that it can very painful for newcomers to the German market.

They will also be required to desist from their unusual habit, seen in the driving trailer photos, of fiitting large diesel generators to trains instead of obtaining it from the locomotive.
 

Gloster

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The order for the Talgo coaches has been modified so that each set will have 492 seats, instead of 442. The details of how this will be achieved have not been made clear, but presumably there will be one more coach per set and some rearrangement of the internal layout.
 

43096

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The order for the Talgo coaches has been modified so that each set will have 492 seats, instead of 442. The details of how this will be achieved have not been made clear, but presumably there will be one more coach per set and some rearrangement of the internal layout.
It's one more coach per set - now 14 rather than 13.
 

Stephen Lee

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It was mentioned recently on a Danish forum that DSB hope to sign a contract this month, so hopefully we will know soon.
It's Alstom, but i just wondered if DSB can refit them with 15KV so as to work on services to Sweden/Norway......
 

DanielB

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However, I still think it will be a big challenge for them to get a multi-system locomotive and 200km/h push-pull articulated set approved and operational in the Netherlands and Germany, markets they have up till now had little to do with.
Germany might be a new challenge for CAF, but they should be familiar with the infrastructure in The Netherlands by now: they've been delivering 206 EMUs to NS over the last few years.
And actually, the only real issues with them are the seats and their invisibility on level crossings.

Although there was something with Talgo sets in The Netherlands... I believe with the axle load. So could be that they'll still struggle with getting the trainsets for DB approved and operational.
 

Gloster

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anyone have opinion?
Unless my brain has gone completely crazy, there are two contracts. One is for Talgo coaches for international services to Germany with the new Class EB locos: this is proceeding. The other is for 25 kV only EMUs for domestic services; this has recently been awarded, but there has been a challenge. These two fleets will be for different purposes and not intermixed.

I see virtually no chance that DSB will either try to operate a competing cross-Øresund operation or try to operate in Sweden: its last attempt at the latter was not very successful. Some years ago the government made it clear that DSB should concentrate on running trains in Denmark and not get involved in foreign distractions. But it was the government that had encouraged DSB to become more commercial and earn money in such ways as winning operating contracts abroad.
 

JonasB

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It's Alstom, but i just wondered if DSB can refit them with 15KV so as to work on services to Sweden/Norway......
Everything (almost) is possible if you have enough money, but if DSB where interested in operating them to Sweden and Norway they would probably have ordered them as multisystem units from the beginnng.
 

Stephen Lee

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Everything (almost) is possible if you have enough money, but if DSB where interested in operating them to Sweden and Norway they would probably have ordered them as multisystem units from the beginnng.
An option of extra 50 sets is available, btw my suggestion is just for the TEE 2.0 : TEE 19/20: Oslo – Malmö – Copenhagen or other rolling stock are suitable?
 

JonasB

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An option of extra 50 sets is available, btw my suggestion is just for the TEE 2.0 : TEE 19/20: Oslo – Malmö – Copenhagen or other rolling stock are suitable?
I think the most likely operator of Oslo-Copenhagen in the near future is SJ, they could extend their Copenhagen-Gothenburg X2000s to Oslo.
 
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