• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

DTM LNER

Status
Not open for further replies.

Yfg132

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2021
Messages
89
Location
Newcastle
Is anybody in for the latest DTM roles advertised by LNER, if so have you heard anything or been invited to interviews yet? Newcastle/Leeds/Doncaster.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

DoubleO

Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
199
Thank you. I've no idea on numbers or salary to be honest, just an educated guess based on LNER driver salaries....
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,804
Location
Redcar
I've no idea on numbers or salary to be honest, just an educated guess based on LNER driver salaries....
Could be missing a trick (and I have no actual info on these specific job roles!!!) but I'm sure there's been cases previously where drivers have ended up with better wages than the driver managers were on. Though I think that was very much the exception to be fair.
 

Efini92

Established Member
Joined
14 Dec 2016
Messages
1,760
Could be missing a trick (and I have no actual info on these specific job roles!!!) but I'm sure there's been cases previously where drivers have ended up with better wages than the driver managers were on. Though I think that was very much the exception to be fair.
For all the extra work, it’s not worth the extra money.
 

whoosh

Established Member
Joined
3 Sep 2008
Messages
1,387
Could be missing a trick (and I have no actual info on these specific job roles!!!) but I'm sure there's been cases previously where drivers have ended up with better wages than the driver managers were on. Though I think that was very much the exception to be fair.

At the TOC I used to work for, a Driver Manager was on a higher salary, but worked 37 hours a week. Our slightly lower salary for a 35 hour week was better pay per hour.
 

tiptoptaff

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2013
Messages
3,038
At our place, DSMs are on driver salary+15%ish. They work a 5day week to our 4day. They don't get any overtime and its easy to close the gap, and surpass it, by working Sundays, and a RDW a week - taking our working week to 5days like theirs.

Our DIs are +5% and Leading Drivers +10% and they all easily eclipse DSM salaries but doing a relatively light amount of overtime.

The biggest advantage to it is that the 15% is pensionable unlike our overtime or DI enhancements (unless you're a "permanent" DI. Most at my depot are fixed term) and the, generally, office hours and ability to work from home, less restrictions on taking annual leave etc.

It's horses for courses. For me, they're hardly comparable jobs.
 

Yfg132

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2021
Messages
89
Location
Newcastle
For me it's not really about the salary, they both pay really well. I love train driving however now having a young family I would rather have most weekends off and been there every morning and evening (I believe the role is pretty flexible) not having to get up or get in at 2am. I will however miss the 4days etc off in a row and days off through the week to get chores done and places are quiter however for me I need to put time with the little ones first!

And if I did the role for a number of years until my children are older or I don't enjoy it for whatever reason the option to return to driving would always be a possibility.
 

DoubleO

Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
199
For me it's not really about the salary, they both pay really well. I love train driving however now having a young family I would rather have most weekends off and been there every morning and evening (I believe the role is pretty flexible) not having to get up or get in at 2am. I will however miss the 4days etc off in a row and days off through the week to get chores done and places are quiter however for me I need to put time with the little ones first!

And if I did the role for a number of years until my children are older or I don't enjoy it for whatever reason the option to return to driving would always be a possibility.

This is pretty much exactly my thinking. Plus I want to progress my career, and, being honest, I'm bored of 'just' driving....
 

LCC106

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2011
Messages
1,310
Just remember you may be called in to cover Train Manager jobs during strike action (varies by TOC), you're on call and just get home from a particularly mad day to receive a phone call and you're straight back out... then you get home again to receive another phone call at 2am. Every day is different and although there may be times you can work from home, there will almost certainly be dark time ride-outs to deal with, chasing drivers for ride-outs who are actually on annual leave when you're waiting at the cab door, going in on a Saturday or Sunday to do safety briefs, passing drivers out on depot night turns etc. Yes, the ability to choose holiday sounds great, but there could be lots more limitations than benefits within the role for not much more money.
 

Yfg132

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2021
Messages
89
Location
Newcastle
Just remember you may be called in to cover Train Manager jobs during strike action (varies by TOC), you're on call and just get home from a particularly mad day to receive a phone call and you're straight back out... then you get home again to receive another phone call at 2am. Every day is different and although there may be times you can work from home, there will almost certainly be dark time ride-outs to deal with, chasing drivers for ride-outs who are actually on annual leave when you're waiting at the cab door, going in on a Saturday or Sunday to do safety briefs, passing drivers out on depot night turns etc. Yes, the ability to choose holiday sounds great, but there could be lots more limitations than benefits within the role for not much more money.

more money

Fully appreciate all the points made but these are a few unlikely scenarios and more often than not you will be purely in Monday - Friday and being in charge of most of your hours, I'd like to think if I was planning on assessing a driver id of already made sure they were not on annual leave etc, yes you may work the odd night or early turn to do a ride out but certainly not even 10% of what Driver has to chop and change with shifts. It's not all rainbows and butterfly's I'm aware but the majority of your hours will be inside a 'normal' working day and most weekends off other than that on call. A few shifts here and there out of those parameters would keep the job interesting and different and certainly wouldn't put me off but I can appreciate the info and it's not something to jump into without thought! Can I ask anyone and everyone on this thread what is it you prefer about driving to doing a job like a Dtms role or vice versa just out of interest =)

Also to add for me it's a 10k + increase.
 

choochoochoo

Established Member
Joined
6 Aug 2013
Messages
1,222
Can I ask anyone and everyone on this thread what is it you prefer about driving to doing a job like a Dtms role or vice versa just out of interest =)

Also to add for me it's a 10k + increase.

Knowing that when i've left the cab at the end of the day, I can switch off from the job completely and not worry what's on my agenda next shift (other than drive a train).

Not having to reply to management emails or go to lots of meetings.

Not having to write reports or fiddle about on company competency management databases.
 

Yfg132

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2021
Messages
89
Location
Newcastle
Knowing that when i've left the cab at the end of the day, I can switch off from the job completely and not worry what's on my agenda next shift (other than drive a train).

Not having to reply to management emails or go to lots of meetings.

Not having to write reports or fiddle about on company competency management databases.
I get the not taking the job home with you aspect, meetings and emails are generally done during times where drivers drive trains so its no like an extra duty to me along with filling in reports and updating databases. (I know I sound like I'm trying to convince my self.. Which I kind of am!) Its a big decision for me and although driving is arguably less stress and more free time, I don't mind a challenge and think you get ample time during your working day whether it be early start / late start / normal start to get your job done the same as a Train Driver getting his duties done within their hours, a few emails and write ups on an evening at home genuinely wouldn't bother me as I tend to do that now within my instructor/assessing role. Also at 35 I'd be pretty young and in 10-15 years time who knows where I could get too in my career.
 

43066

Established Member
Joined
24 Nov 2019
Messages
9,622
Location
London
Can I ask anyone and everyone on this thread what is it you prefer about driving to doing a job like a Dtms role or vice versa just out of interest =)

For me the DM role doesn’t really appeal.
A lot of it is basically admin and box ticking: conducting assessments, writing reports, analysing downloads. Not that much chance to really “manage” as in developing/inspiring people (that might be a reflection of the managers I’ve had to be fair!). Hiring and firing doesn’t appeal in the slightest. I did it in a previous job and the one time I had to sack someone will live with me forever.

Yes, they don’t have to do the shifts, but a lot of them work a five day week and are expected to work as hard as necessary to get the job done with no overtime. So potentially you might end up spending a lot more time at work. Plus “on call” will come around regularly so you might still find yourself at work at 0300 on a weekend if someone has an incident shunting in a depot.

If money is a key factor you could earn a lot more as a regular driver with rest day work - more than a handful per year and you’ll equal the DM wage at most places.
 

Class2ldn

Member
Joined
25 Feb 2011
Messages
1,185
It may be at lner but its not all tocs. Weve got a driver manager who's only been driving 4 years, never been a DI. I dont agree with it personally and I think its why the standard of some drivers is poor, because the management don't have the experience especially when there's incidents as they don't know how to put people on a productive plan.
Our main Driver manager is useless aswell.
 

lammergeier

Member
Joined
5 Oct 2017
Messages
506
It may be at lner but its not all tocs. Weve got a driver manager who's only been driving 4 years, never been a DI. I dont agree with it personally and I think its why the standard of some drivers is poor, because the management don't have the experience especially when there's incidents as they don't know how to put people on a productive plan.
Our main Driver manager is useless aswell.
I think this is probably a product of what's being discussed upthread - drivers, particularly those with experience, just don't want to do it for several reasons. Frankly neither do I. So it leaves the vacancies open for the few who do including the often keener newer drivers. It's either that or recruiting from outside the industry which I think is even less desirable for a DTM role.
 

Yfg132

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2021
Messages
89
Location
Newcastle
I think this is probably a product of what's being discussed upthread - drivers, particularly those with experience, just don't want to do it for several reasons. Frankly neither do I. So it leaves the vacancies open for the few who do including the often keener newer drivers. It's either that or recruiting from outside the industry which I think is even less desirable for a DTM role.
Enjoying all the different responses and people's personal preferences, out of interest what are the reasons you wouldn't like to do the role yourself?
 

Class2ldn

Member
Joined
25 Feb 2011
Messages
1,185
Also with the current recent announcement about redundancy, voluntary retirement etc throughout the industry im not sure id want to be going into a management role at the moment.
Being a driver is probably the most secure place you can be right now.
 

Yfg132

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2021
Messages
89
Location
Newcastle
Whilst there's drivers, they'll be DTM's. They are to highly trained/qualified to just get rid of with still having their drivers key among many other skills and service.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
7,691
Location
London
Also with the current recent announcement about redundancy, voluntary retirement etc throughout the industry im not sure id want to be going into a management role at the moment.
Being a driver is probably the most secure place you can be right now.

I think some DMs / DTMs might be more secure because as @Yfg132 says, there will always be a need for managers but if there are fewer services / trains / diagrams then fewer drivers are required.

This is slightly off-topic though so if we can stick to discussion about the vacancy please.
 

Yfg132

Member
Joined
22 Feb 2021
Messages
89
Location
Newcastle
I think the majority of railway staff who have lots of training and investment spent on them will be fine. The railways will pick up again and it will cost them a fortune and years of playing catch up if they just cut back on highly skilled staff on the back of numbers not been where they were.. Baring in mind they restricted travel and even now on a lot of services are reservation only keeping half the seats empty. Time will tell I guess. But yes back to topic, thanks.
 

Class2ldn

Member
Joined
25 Feb 2011
Messages
1,185
I think some DMs / DTMs might be more secure because as @Yfg132 says, there will always be a need for managers but if there are fewer services / trains / diagrams then fewer drivers are required.

This is slightly off-topic though so if we can stick to discussion about the vacancy please.
It's definitely something to consider as I know at my toc a lot of dtms have been re roled or moved to locations nowhere near where they applied for and have subsequently left very quickly to try and find stability at another toc.
OP by all means give it a go but just remember the grass isn't always greener.
Its also not easy to go back driving, There is always a them and us culture on the railways and from my experience dtms dont integrate well back into the driving grade.
Good luck.
 

Horizon22

Established Member
Associate Staff
Jobs & Careers
Joined
8 Sep 2019
Messages
7,691
Location
London
It's definitely something to consider as I know at my toc a lot of dtms have been re roled or moved to locations nowhere near where they applied for and have subsequently left very quickly to try and find stability at another toc.
OP by all means give it a go but just remember the grass isn't always greener.
Its also not easy to go back driving, There is always a them and us culture on the railways and from my experience dtms dont integrate well back into the driving grade.
Good luck.

Yes I do think that DTMs are more likely to be relocated or shuffled around internally than a driver, but not necessarily to less stable employment, albeit it might be one they don't enjoy so much. There is not "always" a them and us culture but perhaps at your place there was.
 

lammergeier

Member
Joined
5 Oct 2017
Messages
506
Enjoying all the different responses and people's personal preferences, out of interest what are the reasons you wouldn't like to do the role yourself?
Primarily because I enjoy driving. I genuinely like my job, it's not exactly stressful, the shifts suit me and I enjoy the chatter in different messrooms. It's not so much what puts me off being a DTM but what I would lose if I wasn't driving.
 

LCC106

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2011
Messages
1,310
I'd imagine they already are an instructor/assessor as this is a requirement when applying for the DTM role.
Not in all TOCs, however you need to have driven for 4 out of 5 years at a few I know of. Not sure if that’s a standard across the board though.

Edited to add that I know a few drivers who used to be DMs but transferred back due to stress / for an easier life. That can be quite telling in itself.
 

tiptoptaff

Established Member
Joined
15 Feb 2013
Messages
3,038
Not in all TOCs, however you need to have driven for 4 out of 5 years at a few I know of. Not sure if that’s a standard across the board though.
Most DTM/DSM roles state you'll have to be an assessor but they don't expect you to have the qualification already

Obviously if you've been a career structure driver, ie DI or Route Assessor you'll have had the training. But they don't want to discourage or rule out applications from the base driving grade
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top