Dual citizenship because of Brexit

Elwyn

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In general, Irish citizenship goes down 2 generations. So if your grandparent was born in Ireland you can claim citizenship. There are hurdles to cross and illegitimacy or lack of satisfactory documentation can kick you into touch. It’s also quite expensive. Total costs are probably near €800 by the time you have bought all the certificates and paid the various fees. But that’s my understanding of the basic situation.

Irish Citizenship doesn’t go beyond 2 generations. Your spouse or your children could acquire it through you, but in general to do so they would have to live in Ireland for a qualifying period. I think that’s at least 3 years but obviously that needs verified with an appropriate Irish authority eg one of their Embassies or the Department of Justice in Dublin. And there may be other rules relating to criminal record etc which might prove an obstacle in specific cases.

There has to be a cut off for people who were neither born in Ireland nor ever lived here, otherwise citizenship could be handed down endlessly from generation to generation. (In the UK it only goes down one generation so Irish law is more generous than the UK’s).
 
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najaB

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There has to be a cut off for people who were neither born in Ireland nor ever lived here, otherwise citizenship could be handed down endlessly from generation to generation.
I found out recently that Italy seems to be a country that does allow near-indefinite heritage claims. I know of one Brazilian who claimed through their great-great grandparent being Italian. (Or at least that's the story as recounted to me).
 

Grumpy Git

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Maybe. But British tourists have a lot of choices and news travels fast on social media. Any cities/countries who get a reputation for long queues at the airport are going to swiftly start losing business. An airport with a UK only queue when our flights arrive is going to get a lot of good PR
Oh my god.
 

Enthusiast

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Oh my god.
It's called pragmatism, Grumpy. Businesses succeed despite the best efforts of some politicians to prevent it. They adapt, survive and thrive. An airport where passengers can pass through quickly will get business over an alternative one where they can't, Brexit or no Brexit.
 

nlogax

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It's called pragmatism, Grumpy. Businesses succeed despite the best efforts of some politicians to prevent it. They adapt, survive and thrive. An airport where passengers can pass through quickly will get business over an alternative one where they can't, Brexit or no Brexit.
Glad to see you've got wind of a massive market of people who'll choose their holiday destination purely because they can get through the airport a bit quicker.
 

TheSeeker

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I applied for Belgian citizenship in 2017 when it looked pretty obvious what the outcome of Brexit would be. I moved here in 2000 and was worried about keeping my job (would I need a work permit, would my degree still be recognised?) and being able to pay the mortgage.

Surprisingly straight forward even with Belgium's reputation for paperwork. No need for a language test or proof of social integration once you've been paying tax for more than five years and the town hall has a record of permanent residence. The hardest part was getting an appointment at the town hall as the one part time person who deals with applications was totally overwhelmed.

I still don't understand how this works the other way around in the UK if there is no concept of citizen registration or ID cards. How can people prove they've been in the country or even where they really live? Here everyone, locals and foreigners get 8 days to register upon moving house and then a policeman will call to check you really are who you are and you really live there.
 

Grumpy Git

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It's called pragmatism, Grumpy. Businesses succeed despite the best efforts of some politicians to prevent it. They adapt, survive and thrive. An airport where passengers can pass through quickly will get business over an alternative one where they can't, Brexit or no Brexit.
Lets hope there is enough value left in the good old GPB to buy an ice cream in five years. And before anyone gets on a high-horse about the Euro being a basket case, would they care to explain why the "mighty" GPB is worth about 72% of what it was when the "basket case" Euro was created?
 

JamesT

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I applied for Belgian citizenship in 2017 when it looked pretty obvious what the outcome of Brexit would be. I moved here in 2000 and was worried about keeping my job (would I need a work permit, would my degree still be recognised?) and being able to pay the mortgage.

Surprisingly straight forward even with Belgium's reputation for paperwork. No need for a language test or proof of social integration once you've been paying tax for more than five years and the town hall has a record of permanent residence. The hardest part was getting an appointment at the town hall as the one part time person who deals with applications was totally overwhelmed.

I still don't understand how this works the other way around in the UK if there is no concept of citizen registration or ID cards. How can people prove they've been in the country or even where they really live? Here everyone, locals and foreigners get 8 days to register upon moving house and then a policeman will call to check you really are who you are and you really live there.
Basically presenting payslips/bank statements/utility bills from the period in question. The settled status scheme is supposed to be able to pull out National Insurance records that save having to do this, but some people have reported issues with that.
 

Enthusiast

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Glad to see you've got wind of a massive market of people who'll choose their holiday destination purely because they can get through the airport a bit quicker.
I didn't say that and I wasn't talking specifically of the holiday market. Business travellers choose their destination airport for all sorts of reasons and if one takes an hour longer to traverse than another it will gain an edge.

would they care to explain why the "mighty" GPB is worth about 72% of what it was when the "basket case" Euro was created?
Because the euro was created with the German economy as almost its sole beneficiary. The needs and requirements of the other users scarcely got a look in. The number of euros the Greeks got for their Drachmas or the Italians got for their Liras was based on the prevailing DM exchange rate at the time. The euro was de facto a replacement for the DM which other nations were allowed to use. The German economy has, until recently, done comparatively well compared to the UK in that time, hence the "slump" in the Pound. Meanwhile the Greeks, Italians, Portuguese and Spaniards (who would have seen similar "slumps" in their respective currencies) have suffered enormously through not being able to adjust their exchange rates or interest rates whilst being compelled to use a currency which they basically cannot afford and which is not properly aligned with their economies. Upon adopting the euro these countries enjoyed considerably reduced interest rates and a degree of credit-worthiness which their original currencies and their economies could not support, hence the various Eurozone crises which the EU has had to firefight in recent years. Put plainly, the euro has been a disaster for those countries but one which cannot readily be cured by withdrawing from the scheme without even greater pain. Meanwhile Germany continues running its 8% current account surplus (which is contrary to EU rules) by selling their goods to other Eurozone members who are effectively buying them in DMs at an exchange rate which was fixed in 1999.
 

najaB

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Business travellers choose their destination airport for all sorts of reasons and if one takes an hour longer to traverse than another it will gain an edge.
Business travellers generally have little choice in destination - in that they need to go where the business is - so that only applies where there are multiple airlines supporting routes between separate airports in the same city pair.

Which is the exception rather than the rule.

Edit: Using Edinburgh as an example, European business destinations that have two airports served in the coming week:
  • Berlin - Schoenfield / Tegel (inconvenient schedule for business travel - arrival after 12pm)
  • Warsaw - Modlin / Chopin (inconvenient schedule for business travel - only operates two weekdays)
  • Brussels - Brussels / Brussels South (inconvenient schedule for business travel - arrives after 8pm)
Destinations that only have one airport served: Paris, Oslo, Stockholm, Prague, Munich, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Eindhoven, Amsterdam, Rotterdam, Kolon, Zurich, Luxembourg, Geneva, Milan, Rome, Sofia, Budapest, Bucharest, Madrid, Barcelona, Lisbon
 
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Journeyman

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In general, Irish citizenship goes down 2 generations. So if your grandparent was born in Ireland you can claim citizenship. There are hurdles to cross and illegitimacy or lack of satisfactory documentation can kick you into touch. It’s also quite expensive. Total costs are probably near €800 by the time you have bought all the certificates and paid the various fees. But that’s my understanding of the basic situation.

Irish Citizenship doesn’t go beyond 2 generations. Your spouse or your children could acquire it through you, but in general to do so they would have to live in Ireland for a qualifying period. I think that’s at least 3 years but obviously that needs verified with an appropriate Irish authority eg one of their Embassies or the Department of Justice in Dublin. And there may be other rules relating to criminal record etc which might prove an obstacle in specific cases.

There has to be a cut off for people who were neither born in Ireland nor ever lived here, otherwise citizenship could be handed down endlessly from generation to generation. (In the UK it only goes down one generation so Irish law is more generous than the UK’s).
I think the Irish are relatively generous because until fairly recently Irish citizenship didn't actually exist. Until recently, there would have been people born in Ireland as British citizens, so provision had to be made for that, but I suspect they're all dead now as you'd have to be about 100 for that to affect you. My grandfather, who was my qualifying relative, was born in Dublin in 1908, but moved to London with his family when he was seven years old, and lived in the UK until his death in 1994. He was, therefore, a British citizen all his life as he never lived in an independent Ireland, and as far as I know never actually held an Irish passport.

If I'd obtained my Irish citizenship before I'd got married and had my kids, I could have passed it on, but as I acquired it afterwards, I can't.

Oh, and in terms of the cost, it didn't cost me anywhere near 800 euros, it was closer to 300. There's a fee to go on the Foreign Births Register, which is about 250 euros, and the rest was spent on duplicates of various birth, death and marriage certificates to prove my lineage. You need a solicitor to sign various forms, but I had a suitably qualified work colleague at the time, and as it took her a grand total of about two minutes, she was happy to do it as a free favour.
 

Elwyn

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I think the Irish are relatively generous because until fairly recently Irish citizenship didn't actually exist.

I doubt many Irish people would agree with you that “until fairly recently Irish citizenship didn’t actually exist.” Ireland has issued passports since it became independent in 1922. Nearly 100 years. Until 1949 they bore the title of “Irish Free State” and after 1949 they have been known as Irish passports.

Because Ireland was still in the British Commonwealth until 31.12.1948 someone born there up to that date also had a claim to British Citizenship. (British subject status to be precise). So such a person could have a British or an Irish passport, or both.

Having said that, for many years Irish passport holders needed a visa for the US when British passport holders didn’t. Consequently many Irish citizens born pre 1949 used a British passport even though they also qualified for an Irish one. Pragmatic folk in Ireland.
 

delt1c

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Thanks to Brexit I have applied for dual citizenship. Why should I give up my British citizenship. I worked and paid my taxes and contributions in UK for over 40 years. Long for the day when I hold a "Scottish" passport and my citizenship becomes Scottish.
 

Chester1

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Thanks to Brexit I have applied for dual citizenship. Why should I give up my British citizenship. I worked and paid my taxes and contributions in UK for over 40 years. Long for the day when I hold a "Scottish" passport and my citizenship becomes Scottish.
Its an interesting question of whether Scottish Citizenship would be in addition to British Citizenship or replace it. In the 2014 the UK government said Scots would retain British Citizenship like Irish Citizens had the option to. I don't think that is necessarily viable because it would essentially be giving all Scots "English and Welsh Citizenship" (assuming Northern Ireland follows Scotland out of the door). I think there would be an argument for new Citizenships soley for citizens of each sovereign state but having a multi state recognised (optional) British Citizenship for anyone born in England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland prior to break up of the UK. A treaty could guarantee the right to live, work and vote in each state. Anyone born after that date would be just a citizen of their home country unless one of the other countries chose to allow citizenship e.g. for children of their citizens.

I find the approach of some European countries in regards to dual citizenship a little bizarre, they make a big deal about EU citizenship but see national citizenship in very exclusive terms. The UK government doesn't like the concept of EU citizenship but has no limits on multiple citizenships. It puts some EU citizens in the UK and vice versa in very awkward positions. Fortunately the majority of EU states allow dual citizenship. Citizenship should be free for EU citizens living in the UK for the next few years with the government picking up the tab for administration, checks etc. Our national choice put them in the position. Future immigrants know what they will be signing up to.
 

Enthusiast

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I find the approach of some European countries in regards to dual citizenship a little bizarre, they make a big deal about EU citizenship but see national citizenship in very exclusive terms. The UK government doesn't like the concept of EU citizenship but has no limits on multiple citizenships.
That's because the EU is not (yet) a sovereign state and does not (yet) issue passports. As such, "EU Citizenship" as is discussed here does not technically exist. People in the EU are citizens of their home nation which happens to be an EU member. The Maastricht Treaty introduced the principle of EU Citizenship which was automatically bestowed on citizens of the member nations. As above, national governments seem to view it as a bit of an anomaly so perhaps they should have called it something else.
 

Elwyn

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I suspect that the position with an independent Scotland which had it's own citizenship would be that those born before the relevant date would keep their grandfather rights to British citizenship, but that those born after it would only have Scottish citizenship, unless also eligible for British by descent ie in effect if one of your parents was born in the UK). So, over a generation or two, those born in Scotland eligible for British would diminish.

Regarding EU citizens acquiring British citizenship, the position pre-Brexit was that they had to pay for it (as British citizens pay for French, German, Greek citizenship etc), so I can’t see why it should suddenly become free post Brexit. There is the separate issue of acquiring the permanent right to live in the UK, ie permanent residence. The fee for that is currently around £85 including recording your biometrics. I don’t think that’s too unreasonable.
 

Chester1

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That's because the EU is not (yet) a sovereign state and does not (yet) issue passports. As such, "EU Citizenship" as is discussed here does not technically exist. People in the EU are citizens of their home nation which happens to be an EU member. The Maastricht Treaty introduced the principle of EU Citizenship which was automatically bestowed on citizens of the member nations. As above, national governments seem to view it as a bit of an anomaly so perhaps they should have called it something else.
I meant that EU governments that ban or severely limit the rights of their citizens to obtain second citizenships are amongst those angry about the loss of their citizens rights in the UK. I think its 8 out of 27. The UK government's reaction is that they are the problem by not allowing dual citizenship. If EU governments want the complete rights of their Citizens living in UK to last for the rest of their lives then they need to allow them to become British Citizens without losing their Citizenship of birth. The rights under the withdrawal agreement expire after 5 years living outside the UK (and vice versa). They are not as good as citizenship. I would allow free applications for Citizenship for people effected by Brexit because it permenant residency is not truely permanent in any country.

I suspect that the position with an independent Scotland which had it's own citizenship would be that those born before the relevant date would keep their grandfather rights to British citizenship, but that those born after it would only have Scottish citizenship, unless also eligible for British by descent ie in effect if one of your parents was born in the UK). So, over a generation or two, those born in Scotland eligible for British would diminish.

Regarding EU citizens acquiring British citizenship, the position pre-Brexit was that they had to pay for it (as British citizens pay for French, German, Greek citizenship etc), so I can’t see why it should suddenly become free post Brexit. There is the separate issue of acquiring the permanent right to live in the UK, ie permanent residence. The fee for that is currently around £85 including recording your biometrics. I don’t think that’s too unreasonable.
If Scotland goes independent British Citizenship would in reality be English and Welsh Citizenship (assuming Northern Ireland leaves to). I can't see the 2014 policy surviving English nationalist reaction to Scottish independence. It would mean 2 generations of Scots having the right to live, work and vote in England and Wales but no binding obligation for future Scottish governments to reciprocate. The other solution is that at the point of independence people have to choose between citizenship of one of the new states, only getting dual citizenship if they can through parents. If Scotland leaves then the continued existence of the UK will at most be a legal fiction. Russia is the primary successor of the USSR but most non Russians born in the USSR do not have and are no longer entitled to gain Russian Citizenship. I am not necessarily against Scottish independence, I just think there are too many assumptions on both side of the debate.
 

Sbahn4

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Your concerns will be duly noted by the appropriate authority and steps will be taken to remedy the situation in your favour I am sure. British passport holders should definitely be at the front of any queue.

Why should they, what makes a british passport holder so special, they should be before any other person in the queue?
 

Bungle158

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In general, Irish citizenship goes down 2 generations. So if your grandparent was born in Ireland you can claim citizenship. There are hurdles to cross and illegitimacy or lack of satisfactory documentation can kick you into touch. It’s also quite expensive.
With regard to Irish citizenship and right to a passport, illegitimacy is not in itself a bar if the mother was an Irish citizen at the time of birth. I was born, in the UK, to an unmarried Irish mother and subsequently adopted.

In order to gain an Irish passport, l had to provide her Irish birth cert, my original birth cert, my adoption cert and a court issued release of the confidential adoption details, (original names), not generally revealed on standard UK certificates.

It can be both difficult and time consuming to acquire such details, but Irish law makes no exclusions for illegitimate births in such circumstances.

A starting point in such cases is the original birth certificate of the candidate. This may contain details of the mother's origin. If so, a search of Irish birth records for access to her birth cert would follow. Then an adoption certificate and finally application for court records.

As all the other principal players in my situation are now deceased, l had few qualms about proceeding.

The whole business took 18 months, biggest hurdle was the court paperwork. However, l am now a passport holding Irish citizen
 
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SteveP29

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Because the euro was created with the German economy as almost its sole beneficiary. The needs and requirements of the other users scarcely got a look in. The number of euros the Greeks got for their Drachmas or the Italians got for their Liras was based on the prevailing DM exchange rate at the time.
Err, [cough], Exchange Rate Mechanism, some lost, some gained, but not in the way your world thinks they did
 

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