Is conversion to Dual Diesel / Electric Operation possible?

[Christian50]

I've been reading this forum for a while, this is the first time I am posting so please be gentle in your responses. I am frustrated by Southern running diesel units, mainly of the Uckfield line, all the way into London when at least two thirds of that route are actually electrified. Are these DMU diesel-electric or diesel-hydraulic? If the former, would it be feasible to convert them to dual mode operation? I know that GWR have started operating new dual mode multiple units made by Hitachi and I do hope that sooner rather than later government will tell Southern not to run diesel into London to reduce pollution. So what will they do - convert or force Uckfield line passengers to change trains in Oxted? The of course there is all the goods trains which are almost if not entirely diesel hauled. But I'll save that one for another day ....

 

[najaB]

If the former, would it be feasible to convert them to dual mode operation?

Unlikely. Without building new immediate vehicles there's likely no space for the necessary gubbins to go.

 

[Domh245]

They are indeed Diesel hydraulic rather than Diesel electric.

Unlikely. Without building new immediate vehicles there's likely no space for the necessary gubbins to go.

You say that, but if they're doing this to a 168 (which is AIUI identical to a 170/171 below the solebar), then I don't think it's too much of a leap to assume that they could modify that system to provide third rail pickups, and retrofit to the 171s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the things ever work, they could replace them with Class 769s and ship the DMUs off to somewhere that needs pure DMUs such as Northern? They might be a better fit at Southern being 20m vehicles, too.

 

[AM9]

They are indeed Diesel hydraulic rather than Diesel electric.



You say that, but if they're doing this to a 168 (which is AIUI identical to a 170/171 below the solebar), then I don't think it's too much of a leap to assume that they could modify that system to provide third rail pickups, and retrofit to the 171s.

So what would the 3rd rail power, - hotel supplies? There aren't any electric motors so unless the bogies are replaced, thereby disabling the hydraulic drives the only other option is to put a motor on the end of each diesel engine's crankshaft, - and of course lift the valves to make them easier to turn over when not running.

 

[Domh245]

So what would the 3rd rail power, - hotel supplies? There aren't any electric motors so unless the bogies are replaced, thereby disabling the hydraulic drives the only other option is to put a motor on the end of each diesel engine's crankshaft, - and of course lift the valves to make them easier to turn over when not running.

The press release says that the hybrid power pack contains a diesel engine, a battery, and a motor/generator which enables "very low-noise, emissions-free battery-only electric operation in urban areas and around stations."

So clearly they've come up with a way to move a train on the electric motor alone and adapting it shouldn't be too difficult if you wanted it to run off of third rail, although it's possible that even the hybrid system as is would represent a sufficient reduction in emissions.

This sort of technical talk may be better suited to the thread about the hybrid packs instead though

 

[hwl]

I've been reading this forum for a while, this is the first time I am posting so please be gentle in your responses. I am frustrated by Southern running diesel units, mainly of the Uckfield line, all the way into London when at least two thirds of that route are actually electrified. Are these DMU diesel-electric or diesel-hydraulic? If the former, would it be feasible to convert them to dual mode operation? I know that GWR have started operating new dual mode multiple units made by Hitachi and I do hope that sooner rather than later government will tell Southern not to run diesel into London to reduce pollution. So what will they do - convert or force Uckfield line passengers to change trains in Oxted? The of course there is all the goods trains which are almost if not entirely diesel hauled. But I'll save that one for another day ....

See the RR / Porterbrook Turbostar Hybrid thread and this news article from yesterday:
https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/o...ect-in-the-uk-with-mtu-hybrid-powerpacks.aspx
At which point is is very easy to add 3rd rail.

Nothing will happen till the next franchise.

The project is aimed a satisfying requirements for the new EM franchise currently being tendered. the first potential London application is Chiltern out of Marylebone and then Southern Uckfield services. (Re-franchising order)

 

[MatthewRead]

If the things ever work, they could replace them with Class 769s and ship the DMUs off to somewhere that needs pure DMUs such as Northern? They might be a better fit at Southern being 20m vehicles, too.

Mark 3 derived EMU's are not cleared to run through the tunnel between Woldingham and Oxted!

 

[GrimShady]

I wonder if it's possible to construct FLIRT style short power coaches/cars to insert into Turbostars. That way the underfloor engines could be removed and replaced with motors attached to the drive shaft enabling the units to keep the hydraulic transmission.

Are the jigs for Turbostar vehicles around anymore?

 

[apk55]

I wonder if it's possible to construct FLIRT style short power coaches/cars to insert into Turbostars. That way the underfloor engines could be removed and replaced with motors attached to the drive shaft enabling the units to keep the hydraulic transmission.

Are the jigs for Turbostar vehicles around anymore?

You would not want an electric motor driving an inefficient hydraulic transmission. Electric motors can deliver high torque at zero speed and can run in both directions. Rather replace the bogie with a standard power bogie and get rid of all the complex carden shafts and transfer gear boxes

 

[edwin_m]

You would not want an electric motor driving an inefficient hydraulic transmission. Electric motors can deliver high torque at zero speed and can run in both directions. Rather replace the bogie with a standard power bogie and get rid of all the complex carden shafts and transfer gear boxes

The bogie used on the Turbostars is the same basic design as used on the 313-315 EMUs in a motored version. It might even be possible to fit traction motors into the existing bogies. However the above link suggests that the motor/genarator is part of the new "power pack" on the 168 conversion, so it's possibly keeping the bogie unchanged and driving it via the existing cardan shaft.

 

[apk55]

My own thoughts would be to replace the torque converter transmission unit with an alternator and use traction motor bogies to convert the power car to a DEMU. You would better performance (higher tractive effort over practically all the speed range) and higher efficiency as torque converters are very inefficient.

There are going to a lot of potential power bogies available if a 313 type could be used after all they are scrapping class 313/314/315/507/508 units. Might even be able to use the transformers for electric operation