e-ticket to Liverpool Lime St (not Liverpool Stations)

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by Jack Hay, 27 Aug 2018.

  1. Jack Hay

    Jack Hay Member

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    Hi guys, I just booked an e-ticket using the LNW app. I wanted to book to 'Liverpool Stations' as I'll travel to Moorfields and return from Lime St, but although I specified 'Liverpool Stations' as the destination, the app has issued a ticket to Lime St specifically. I guess this won't let me through the barrier at Moorfields and I'll have to walk from Lime St (does anybody know?). A paper ticket would almost always be issued to 'Liverpool Stations', so is this a new restriction with e-tickets? Thanks for any advice.
     
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  3. Hadders

    Hadders Fares Advisor

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    We’d need to know more details about where the ticket is from but I think LNR do use Liverpool Lime Street rather than Liverpool Stations for some of their TOC only tickets.
     
  4. Jack Hay

    Jack Hay Member

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    It is from Hartford to Liverpool; I specified 'Liverpool Stations', and an e-ticket, in the app but it would only issue an e-ticket to Lime Street. And for the same fare too! With the loss of flexibility (and I needed the flexibility) it is a poorer deal. I'm wondering whether a conventional ticket would have been different.
     
  5. alistairlees

    alistairlees Established Member

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    Assuming it's one of these fares:
    http://www.brfares.com/#expert?orig=HTF&dest=0435

    Then there is no reason why an eTicket should have any different validity from a conventionally-fulfilled ticket; all that has changed is the method of fulfilment.

    In fact the eTicket was specifically designed to cope with group stations like this (and should use a group station CRS code on the front for this particular fare).

    I'd really appreciate seeing pictures of the front and back if you don't mind.

    Thanks
     
  6. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    brfares.com indicates that all available paper tickets from Hartford to Liverpool Lime Street are issued to "Liverpool Stns" and are routed "Not via Manchester".

    This is yet another reason why I won't purchase or use an e-ticket or m-ticket.
     
  7. alistairlees

    alistairlees Established Member

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    Let's see the evidence first. As I said, there is no reason for the validity of a ticket fulfilled in one way to be different from the same ticket fulfilled in another way. Changing fulfilment should certainly not change the fare validity.
     
  8. Wallsendmag

    Wallsendmag Established Member

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    i don't think merseyrail accept e-Tickets
     
  9. alistairlees

    alistairlees Established Member

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    Almost all TOCs will need to accept eTickets or m-tickets very soon; this is a fundamental premise of the DfT's STNR (Smart Ticketing on National Rail) programme (the other part being ITSO of course).

    The major exception will be cross-London flows, Travelcards etc, as TfL won't accept them. However, this does not mean that validity should be changed; just that fulfilment as eTicket (or m-ticket) should not be offered for those flows at all. The same should apply to flows that involve travel on TOCs not yet accepting them; however, there will very soon be no need for that to be the case in most cases, as there are funds to barcode-enable gates, provide staff with handheld readers etc., for most TOCs. The exceptions are the TOCs south of London (SE, GTR) and that are relatively isolated (c2c). I think even SWR will have them on some routes, if they don't already.
     
  10. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    Will the funds for barcode enabled gates extend to TfL gates?
     
  11. alistairlees

    alistairlees Established Member

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    The part I have highlighted in bold seems to be an issue on the website too, and irrespective of the fulfilment type; if I select Liverpool Stations as the destination, I only get info that my journey is to Liverpool Lime Street, and this is implied to to be the case for the validity of the ticket too. Certainly I can't see it is valid to "Liverpool Stations". That said, I haven't bought it, so cannot be definitive.
     
  12. alistairlees

    alistairlees Established Member

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    Nope.
     
  13. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

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    Is this a TOC only ticket?
     
  14. Hadders

    Hadders Fares Advisor

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    I suspect that getting the Underground gates to read the barcodes will slow down the throughput of passengers too much. I agree with those who won't use m-tickets or e-tickets until they offer the same validity and flexibility as paper tickets.

    I was at Blackfriars earlier today and had a bit of time before my train so took the opportunity to print some tickets for future journeys at a TVM. A young lady on front of my was trying to print some tickets but she was having difficulty. Turned out she had an m-ticket so I advised her that there was no need to print it, the QR code on her phone would suffice. I did notice that the ticket was from London Terminals to Melton Mowbray and it had been activated so I advised the person that they would need to purchase a ticket (or use contactless) to get to St Pancras as the ticket wasn't valid to travel from Blackfriars.
     
  15. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    Is there any particular reason why you didn't specify Moorfields as the destination? It seems like it would have resulted in a lot less confusion. :)
     
  16. Statto

    Statto Established Member

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    Lime Street to Moorfields is about a 10-15 minute walk anyway, just walk through Queen Square Bus Station, Crosshall Street then Dale Street to Moorfields.
     
  17. Wallsendmag

    Wallsendmag Established Member

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    We're in the middle of asking for acceptance of e and m tickets for flows we own and it's generally a resounding no for e-Tickets.
     
  18. John @ home

    John @ home Established Member Fares Advisor

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    brfares.com tells us that all available tickets from Hartford to Liverpool are set by West Midlands Trains, are routed "Not via Manchester", and have the destination "Liverpool Stations". It also claims "Fares correct as of 28 August 2018". If this is correct, then there are no TOC only tickets from Hartford to Liverpool.

    Yesterday WebTis based booking engines such as TPE Mixing Deck showed that there were no fares at all from Hartford to Moorfields, a member of Liverpool Stations Group. Today, TPE Mixing Deck is happy to sell a Hartford to Liverpool Stations ticket for a Hartford to Moorfields journey.

    I suspect there has been a temporary glitch.
     
  19. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    Why don't they want e-tickets? Do many problems with them?
     
  20. bb21

    bb21 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    See Post 13, first sentence.
     
  21. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    So if post 13 applies to many TOCs, why does any TOC want an e-ticket in the first place?
     
  22. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    I find it strange that there's suddenly all this talk of enabling of barcoded tickets being dependent on barcode scanners being installed at stations en-route when certain TOCs, e.g. CrossCountry, have been offering barcoded M-tickets for years on routes where there were no barcode scanners at all and you've just had to ask to be manually let through the gateline at either end of your journey.
     
  23. bb21

    bb21 Forum Staff Staff Member Global Moderator

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    What do you mean?

    The issue exists mainly for London Underground due to the importance of maintaining throughput at their gatelines to effectively manage customer flow.

    Why are you surprised that technology-wise the industry is normally about 15 years behind? ;)
     
  24. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    Wallsendmag said that when they ask for e-ticket acceptance they get a no. I assumed they were talking about TOCs in general and not just the London Underground.
     
  25. Wallsendmag

    Wallsendmag Established Member

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    TOCs are worried about revenue protection and fraud with e-Tickets, if you have all the tools available it's no more of a problem than currently
     
    Last edited: 29 Aug 2018
  26. causton

    causton Established Member

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    There is a big push now to get lots of journeys 'smart' either pressure from RDG or the franchise commitments of companies, so it will only get worse!
     
  27. BluePenguin

    BluePenguin Member

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    If they are the same price then I am sure you could ask for a zero excess?
     
  28. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    It's less of a problem than currently, because with the right software you could record a lot of detail about where it was used, and also unlike a bit of orange card purchased for cash they have name, address, card details etc of the purchaser so pursuing for fraud would be easier.
     
  29. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Excuse me while I go into hysterics - I have never, ever managed to obtain one of those.

    If your booking says Liverpool Stations, I'd just buy a single (Merseyrail local journeys aren't expensive) and contact Customer Services for some RTVs after the event.

    Edit: it's £1.95. A bit more than I thought, given that in 1997ish I remember paying the princely sum of £0.15 (with YP) for James St-Central, after the staff got over the disbelief that I was requesting it! :)
     
  30. Wallsendmag

    Wallsendmag Established Member

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    Massive 60,000,000 new tickets to be enabled

    easier to copy though so you need to stay on top of it.
     
  31. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    True, though assuming you are keeping a central record of "grips" it would be fairly easy to run a report off of repeat uses and pursue them in Court later rather than on the spot.
     

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