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Early Examples Of "Missing" Locomotive/ Unit Numbers

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tbtc

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Recent discussion about BR's reluctance to have locomotives with "666" in their TOPS number made me wonder which locos were the first to have obviously "missing" numbers when first given TOPS numbers (within the class - e.g. 47665 then 47667)

Also (to pad out what might be a fairly thin thread!), what were the first locos/units to be built without a "001"? The first time I became aware of it was the 321s, which started off with 321 301 (but there may have been classes prior to the 321s which missed early numbers - I'm not sure why - was it because they were numbered alongside an earlier class like the 319s?)

For avoidance of doubt I am not talking about the fact that there was a gap between different classes (like Cromptons and Hymeks - i.e. the classes went straight from 33 to 35 with nothing being numbered "34") - that's not what this thread is about. Sometimes BR left two digit class numbers "spare" because they planned to use them at a later date, so I'm fine with those kind of gaps - I'm talking about gaps inside classes rather than gaps between classes.
 
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xotGD

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When locos were renumbered into the TOPS system gaps were used for the anomalous 'Number 0' in the old D numbering system. So D8000 became 20050, etc. That leads to a related question of when starting a class at number 0 became the norm? It always seems wrong to me.
 

Richard Scott

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Recent discussion about BR's reluctance to have locomotives with "666" in their TOPS number made me wonder which locos were the first to have obviously "missing" numbers when first given TOPS numbers (within the class - e.g. 47665 then 47667)
There was no 47667, 47/4 conversions finished with 47665. Believe 47548 was missed out as nominated loco 47125 didn't end up getting converted for whatever reason.
 

30907

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When locos were renumbered into the TOPS system gaps were used for the anomalous 'Number 0' in the old D numbering system. So D8000 became 20050, etc. That leads to a related question of when starting a class at number 0 became the norm? It always seems wrong to me.
I suspect the answer is - when companies started systematic numbering of classes with 3 or 4 digits, instead of filling in the gaps rather at random.
The GW did this from the early 1900's, the LMS and LNE were much later; while the SR under Maunsell did it (900 for Schools, 850 LN and 950 Z) but Bulleid didn't - and SR electrics always started from 1.
 

O L Leigh

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Also (to pad out what might be a fairly thin thread!), what were the first locos/units to be built without a "001"? The first time I became aware of it was the 321s, which started off with 321 301 (but there may have been classes prior to the 321s which missed early numbers - I'm not sure why - was it because they were numbered alongside an earlier class like the 319s?)

I'm unsure if the Cl310s were built and numbered directly into the TOPS scheme, but the ever reliable Wikipedia confirms that they were numbered 310046-095 (Cl310/0) and 310101-113 (Cl310/1). Otherwise I think you'd be looking at the Cl314s of 1979 which were numbered in the 3142XX series.

I think the later BR fashion for avoiding 001 in every class was to avoid confusion between individual units of different classes and to make the class of an individual unit readily identifiable. This is particularly the case when units are often referred to solely by the last three digits of their unit number, as is frequently the case in normal railway parlance. You can clearly see this with the Sprinter classes, where Cl150/1s have unit numbers starting 1, Cl150/2s starting 2, Cl155s starting 3, Cl156s starting 4 and 5, and Cl158s starting 7 and 8. Even the prototype units were renumbered to prevent confusion, with 151001 and 002 becoming 151003 and 004. I'll stand to be corrected, but I think that when 150002 was briefly converted to Cl154 it still ran as unit 002 in spite of it's new classification.
 
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Richard Scott

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I'm unsure if the Cl310s were built and numbered directly into the TOPS scheme, but the ever reliable Wikipedia confirms that they were numbered 310046-095 (Cl310/0) and 310101-113 (Cl310/1). Otherwise I think you'd be looking at the Cl314s of 1979 which were numbered in the 3142XX series.
Wasn't a lot of it to avoid confusion in local areas as units were referred to by last 3 numbers?
 

O L Leigh

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Wasn't a lot of it to avoid confusion in local areas as units were referred to by last 3 numbers?

Yes, I believe so. I think it was a big reason why the Cl317/1s transferred from Hornsey to Ilford around 2005 were renumbered in the 3175XX series to avoid any confusion with Ilford's existing allocation of Cl321s

Sorry, I was busy editing my post to address this when you posted your question. My apologies.
 

randyrippley

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If you ignore TOPS and look at all the BR diesel numbering schemes then some of the early shunter designs become nice and confusing.
For instance what became class 10 were numbered starting 13137, while what became class 11 started at 12033
Even when they later got D numbers they weren't numbered in class specific blocks
 

SteveyBee131

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...

Also (to pad out what might be a fairly thin thread!), what were the first locos/units to be built without a "001"? The first time I became aware of it was the 321s, which started off with 321 301 (but there may have been classes prior to the 321s which missed early numbers - I'm not sure why - was it because they were numbered alongside an earlier class like the 319s?)

...
Most of the Sprinters don't have a 001. Think it's because at the time the 2 car varieties from all classes were made up of a DMSL coach numbered 52xxx and a DMS coach numbered 57xxx. So that unit and carriage numbers matched up (in normal circumstances anyway!), the 155 (later 153), 156, and 158s didn't start at 001.

The 159s are an odd one, as they were were rebuilt from the last 158s which would've been 158873 to 895, but we're sufficiently different to warrant a new class, and therefore unit number. The carriages kept their original numbers (52873, 57873 etc) but the units were numbered 159001etc!
 

Clarence Yard

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Wasn't a lot of it to avoid confusion in local areas as units were referred to by last 3 numbers?

It was, hence the renumbering of the ER 312 units when they were nearly new.

The 310 (AM 10 in old money) units were originally all one series, starting at 046 (without any class designation), following on from the 304 (AM4) units, both numbered in a consecutive LMR AC unit numbering system.
 

61653 HTAFC

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Another anomaly with "001s": unit 141001 existed but never ran in service with that number, as it became essentially Neville Hill's "Christmas Tree" from day one. When the class was overhauled in 1988-89 this unit became 141102 in order to match the final digits of the vehicle numbers (55502+55522) to the set number.
 

dubscottie

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Wasn't a lot of it to avoid confusion in local areas as units were referred to by last 3 numbers?
It was. The class 107 units being a good example.
Originally they were 107 4xx until the 156s showed up. They then became 107 7xx.
A few years later they became 107 0xx so they didn't clash with the 7xx numbers on the 158s.
 

61653 HTAFC

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It was. The class 107 units being a good example.
Originally they were 107 4xx until the 156s showed up. They then became 107 7xx.
A few years later they became 107 0xx so they didn't clash with the 7xx numbers on the 158s.
Up until the last few years, Scotland was the only place that bothered with conventional 1xx xxx set numbers on 1st generation DMUs. I've always wondered why this was so perhaps someone on here knows more. Apologies if that causes too much thread drift!
 

Helvellyn

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There was no 47667, 47/4 conversions finished with 47665. Believe 47548 was missed out as nominated loco 47125 didn't end up getting converted for whatever reason.
47125 apparently missed out on being ETH fitted and converted to a Class 47/4 twice - as well as its conversion to 47548 being cancelled it was also pencilled in to be 47666 before the ETH conversions ceased with 47665.

Wasn't a lot of it to avoid confusion in local areas as units were referred to by last 3 numbers?
Pretty much, and this has been alluded to with a couple of classes.

AM4/AM10 (Classes 304/310) - London Midland Region
  • 304001 - 304045
  • 310046 - 310095

AM3/AM11 (Classes 303/311) - Scottish Region
  • 303001 - 303091
  • 311092 - 311110

AM7/AM8 (Classes 307+308/1) - Eastern Region (Great Eastern outer suburban services)
  • 307101 - 307132
  • 308133 - 308165
AM2/AM8 (Classes 302+308/2) - Eastern Region (London, Tilbury & Southend services - 308/2 units for use on Boat Trains to Tilbury Riverside)
  • 302201 - 302312
  • 308313 - 308321

AM5/AM8 (Classes 305/1+308/3) - Eastern Region (Lea Velley inner suburban services)
  • 305401 - 305452
  • 308453 - 308455

The Eastern Region numbering becomes clearer when you add in the missing classes:
  • 306001 - 306092 (AM6 / Class 306)
  • 305501 - 305519 (AM5 / Class 305/2)
  • 309601 - 309608 (AM9 / Class 309/1)
  • 309611 - 309618 (AM9 / Class 309/2)
  • 309621 - 309627 (AM9 / Class 309/3)
  • 312701 - 312726 (Class 312/0, originally 312001-312026 for Great Northern services out of King's Cross)
  • 312727 - 312730 (Class 312/0, originally Class 312/2 312201-312204 for London Midland Region services in the West Midlands)
  • 312781 - 312799 (Class 312/1, originally 312101-312119 dual-voltage units for Great Eastern services)
  • 315801 - 315861 (Class 315 - replaced Class 306 units)
 

tbtc

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Pretty much, and this has been alluded to with a couple of classes.

AM4/AM10 (Classes 304/310) - London Midland Region
  • 304001 - 304045
  • 310046 - 310095

AM3/AM11 (Classes 303/311) - Scottish Region
  • 303001 - 303091
  • 311092 - 311110

AM7/AM8 (Classes 307+308/1) - Eastern Region (Great Eastern outer suburban services)
  • 307101 - 307132
  • 308133 - 308165
AM2/AM8 (Classes 302+308/2) - Eastern Region (London, Tilbury & Southend services - 308/2 units for use on Boat Trains to Tilbury Riverside)
  • 302201 - 302312
  • 308313 - 308321

AM5/AM8 (Classes 305/1+308/3) - Eastern Region (Lea Velley inner suburban services)
  • 305401 - 305452
  • 308453 - 308455

The Eastern Region numbering becomes clearer when you add in the missing classes:
  • 306001 - 306092 (AM6 / Class 306)
  • 305501 - 305519 (AM5 / Class 305/2)
  • 309601 - 309608 (AM9 / Class 309/1)
  • 309611 - 309618 (AM9 / Class 309/2)
  • 309621 - 309627 (AM9 / Class 309/3)
  • 312701 - 312726 (Class 312/0, originally 312001-312026 for Great Northern services out of King's Cross)
  • 312727 - 312730 (Class 312/0, originally Class 312/2 312201-312204 for London Midland Region services in the West Midlands)
  • 312781 - 312799 (Class 312/1, originally 312101-312119 dual-voltage units for Great Eastern services)
  • 315801 - 315861 (Class 315 - replaced Class 306 units)

That's a great example - thanks for posting!

I grew up in a loco-hauled area, so never paid that much attention to DMU numbers (classes, sure, but not individual unit numbers) - so this thread is teaching me a few things... does anyone know what the 321s were numbered in sequence with (since they only started at 321 301)?
 

Western Sunset

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I think at one point, there was a proposal that the push-pull Class 33s would be classed as 34s.

Anyway, back to the topic. There was also a gap in the Mk2e coaching stock series; there never were any vehicles numbered M3217-M3220 and M5805-M5808, as it was decided to number Mk3 stock in a new series.
 
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Helvellyn

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Actually, I spotted nobody mentioned the Class 37 refurbishment programme. On the surface the sub-classes are straight forward:
  • Class 37/4 - Main generator replaced by an alternator, regeared CP7 bogies, Electric Train Heat (ETH) apparatus.
  • Class 37/5 - Main generator replaced by an alternator, regeared CP7 bogies.
  • Class 37/7 - Main generator replaced by an alternator, regeared CP7 bogies, ballast weights to improve tractive effort from a standing start.
  • Class 37/9 - New engine, main generator replaced by an alternator, regeared CP7 bogies, ballast weights to improve tractive effort from a standing start.

However, numbering wise there were divisions (and thus gaps) in the sub-classes
  • 37401 upwards - Converted from Batch 3 central headcode examples (37259 - 37308), which had been built with improved control equipment.
  • 37501 upwards - Converted from Batch 1 split headcode examples (37001-37119). Fitted with a Brush alternator.
  • 37599 downwards - Would have been converted from Batch 1 split headcode examples. Would have been fitted with a GEC alternator.
  • 37600 upwards - Would have been converted from Batch 2 central headcode examples (37120-37258). Would have been fitted with a GEC alternator.
  • 37699 downwards - Converted from Batch 2 central headcode examples. Fitted with a Brush alternator.
  • 37701 upwards - Converted from Batch 1 split headcode examples. Fitted with a Brush alternator.
  • 37799 downwards - Converted from Batch 1 split headcode examples. Fitted with a GEC alternator.
  • 37800 upwards - Converted from Batch 2 central headcode examples. Fitted with a GEC alternator.
  • 37899 downwards - Converted from Batch 2 central headcode examples. Fitted with a Brush alternator.
  • 37901-37904 - Converted from Batch 2 central headcode examples. Fitted with a Mirrlees engime and Brush alternator.
  • 37905-37906 - Converted from Batch 2 central headcode examples. Fitted with a Rushton engine and GEC alternator (Surprised they didn't become 37998/999!).
The later Class 37/6 conversions from both batches of Class 37/5 and were numbered 37601-37612 simply to group the European Passenger Services locomotives together and recognise the mods made to them (e.g. through ETH wiring for the Generator Cars converted from Mark 3 Sleepers).

That's a great example - thanks for posting!

I grew up in a loco-hauled area, so never paid that much attention to DMU numbers (classes, sure, but not individual unit numbers) - so this thread is teaching me a few things... does anyone know what the 321s were numbered in sequence with (since they only started at 321 301)?
You're welcome. My assumption on the Class 321 units was that the Great Eastern examples were numbered 3213xx because with mass withdrawals of the Class 302 units only 30 refurbished units were destined for a longer life. Most of these were in the series 302201-302230, with higher numbered units renumbered to fill in the gaps. This freed up the 3xx3xx series for use by the 321s.

Also, whilst the 312s were renumbered into the 3127xx series (to tie in with the Eastern Region last three number policy) the 313s remained as 3130xx - the withdrawal of the 306 units (replaced by the Class 315s) meant that the 3xx0xx series was available.

I think at one point, there was a proposal that the push-pull Class 33s would be classed as 34s.
I've also read that regarding the Class 33/1s intended to be Class 34s. Another Southern Region gap is Class 72 - originally allocated to the Class 73/0 (JA) diesel-electrics, which would have meant the Class 73/1 (JB) locomotives would have been numbered in the 730xx series instead.

Anyway, back to the topic. There was also a gap in the Mk2e coaching stock series; there never were any vehicles numbered M3217-M3220 and M5805-M5808, as it was decided to number Mk3 stock in a new series.
There were other odd gaps, such as the Restaurant Buffets in the 16xx series (1644-1699) - there weren't enough 17xx numbers left for these 56 vehicles, so they numbered them at the top end of the 16xx range adjacent to the 17xx series (the 18xx series was allocated to the Miniature Buffets).

The Mark 1 Kitchen Buffets were also numbered out of sequence with the prototype being 1546, then the first production build being 1500-1526, followed by 1547-1569, followed by 1527-1529! As well as jumping back and forth in the 15xx series between builds it also left a gap between 1530-1545.
 

norbitonflyer

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47125 apparently missed out on being ETH fitted and converted to a Class 47/4 twice - as well as its conversion to 47548 being cancelled it was also pencilled in to be 47666 before the ETH conversions ceased with 47665.


Pretty much, and this has been alluded to with a couple of classes.

AM4/AM10 (Classes 304/310) - London Midland Region
  • 304001 - 304045
  • 310046 - 310095

AM3/AM11 (Classes 303/311) - Scottish Region
  • 303001 - 303091
  • 311092 - 311110

AM7/AM8 (Classes 307+308/1) - Eastern Region (Great Eastern outer suburban services)
  • 307101 - 307132
  • 308133 - 308165
AM2/AM8 (Classes 302+308/2) - Eastern Region (London, Tilbury & Southend services - 308/2 units for use on Boat Trains to Tilbury Riverside)
  • 302201 - 302312
  • 308313 - 308321

AM5/AM8 (Classes 305/1+308/3) - Eastern Region (Lea Velley inner suburban services)
  • 305401 - 305452
  • 308453 - 308455

The Eastern Region numbering becomes clearer when you add in the missing classes:
  • 306001 - 306092 (AM6 / Class 306)
  • 305501 - 305519 (AM5 / Class 305/2)
  • 309601 - 309608 (AM9 / Class 309/1)
  • 309611 - 309618 (AM9 / Class 309/2)
  • 309621 - 309627 (AM9 / Class 309/3)
  • 312701 - 312726 (Class 312/0, originally 312001-312026 for Great Northern services out of King's Cross)
  • 312727 - 312730 (Class 312/0, originally Class 312/2 312201-312204 for London Midland Region services in the West Midlands)
  • 312781 - 312799 (Class 312/1, originally 312101-312119 dual-voltage units for Great Eastern services)
  • 315801 - 315861 (Class 315 - replaced Class 306 units)
Before TOPS, each region numbered its AC emus in a separate series starting, so there were an AM3, an AM4 and an AM6 all numbered 001. The first EMUs post-TOPs were the Class 312s, originally numbered 3120xx (Great Northern), 3121xx (Great Eastern) and 3122xx (LMR). The Eastern Region quickly renumbered both its batches in the 3127xx series (the GE ones starting at 781) to avoid duplication with the AM6s and AM7s, but the 313s kept their numbers. The LMR 312's numbers were left alone as they did not duplicate any other LMR ac units (the 310s only got up to 092 - although they did work alongside the class 501 dc units, which were known by the last three digits of their carriage numbers, which were in the 611xx range).

One unusual gap is in class 455/7, where the last two are 5742 and 5750. The latter was renumbered from 5743 as a gimmick to mark the class's home depot at Wimbledon achieving B.S.5750 accreditation. (No, I don't know what that means either)
 

Peter Mugridge

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One unusual gap is in class 455/7, where the last two are 5742 and 5750. The latter was renumbered from 5743 as a gimmick to mark the class's home depot at Wimbledon achieving B.S.5750 accreditation. (No, I don't know what that means either)
It was a paperwork quality standard, basically a way of enshrining procedures to ensure that everyone does everything in the same way. These days it is known as ISO 9002. The main thing about it was you had to be very careful because it was just as easy to enshrine a bad procedure as a good one, and once a procedure was registered it was a lot of work to make even minor changes to the documents.

455 750 should, in my opinion, have regained the original number 455 743 when the standard was changed away from BS5750, but I guess it was cheaper and easier to just leave it.

Rather amusingly, considering it was a quality standard, not long after it was renumbered I had it from Stoneleigh to Epsom on the way to work and immediately after detraining, it derailed while running into the down side sidings to berth ahead of returning to Wimbledon depot for the off peak period.
 

norbitonflyer

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If you ignore TOPS and look at all the BR diesel numbering schemes then some of the early shunter designs become nice and confusing.
For instance what became class 10 were numbered starting 13137, while what became class 11 started at 12033
Even when they later got D numbers they weren't numbered in class specific blocks
Almost all of them were in class-specific blocks, although some of them overflowed and needed a second block (e.g class 25, continued after 5299 at 7500). There were exceptions where TOPS made a distinction that had not been made before.
The standard shunters were numbered in one block starting at 13000, later re-numbered in the D3000 block. It was only with TOPS that they were allocated to different classes according to the engine and/or gearing fitted, hence classes 08,09 and 10 all coming from the D3000 to D4192 range. Likewise classes 22/29, 30/31, 42/43, 47/48. Also, Classes 24/25, 26/27, 44-46 were each numbered in one block, rather than resuming at the next round hundred (e.g the first Class 46 was D138).

12033 was the first of the LMS-design shunters with axle-hung motors, which were classified class 11 - 12000-12032 were the older jackshaft type.
There was some logic to it:

Large main line diesels in the 10xxx series (there were only six, of three different types: 10000 and 10001; 10100; and 10201,10202,10203.

Diesel mechanical shunting engines in the 11xxx series. These had several blocks (starting at 11000, 11100, 11500, 11700) depending on transmission and wheel arrangement. They became the D2xxx series under the 1957 scheme, the 11100 series, which had got very tangled, being split into D2000 (later class 03) D2200 (class04), D2400, D2500, and D2550 (class 05), the 115xxs becoming the D2950 class (later Class 01) and the 117xx becoming D27xx. Vacant spaces (from D2410, D2510, D2850 and D2900) were later used by new classes, the D2410s and D2850s surviving long enough to become Classes 06 and 02 respectively.

Diesel-electric shunting engines to LMS designs (three classes) were numbered by BR in the 12xxx series, with no gaps. LMS numbers 7069 - 7131:those still extant at nationalisation became 12000-12044 under BR and production continued under BR to 12133. Pre-nationalisation designs did not get D-prefix numbers, so they retained their 12xxx numbers until withdrawal, although the third class (12033 onwards) became TOPS Class 11,being withdrawn before getting individual TOPs numbers.

The BR development of the 12033 class was, of course, the standard shunter we now know as Class 08, originally numbered in the 13xxx series (up to 13366), and later in the D3xxx series. A few batches were built with non-standard gearing, and others with non-standard Blackstone or Crossley engines. These were numbered in the 13xxx/ D3xxx series mixed with those to the standard spec, but under TOPs two of them became classes 09 and 10 (the Crossley type (13117-26) had all gone by then)

Variants of the standard LMS shunter were built for the other members of the "Big Four", numbered by BR in the 150xx (LNER), 151xx (GWR) and 152xx (SR) series. A further batch of the SR type were built after nationalisation, numbered from 15211 to separate them from the pre-war version (15201-15203), and later became Class 12

The two gas turbine locos were numbered 18000 and 18100

Pre-nationalisation electric types
SR CC1 - CC3 became 20001-20003
LNER EM1 26xxx (26000 was LNER 6701)
LNER EM2 27xxx
(these became classes 70,76,77, although only class 76 received individual numbers under TOPS)

Former NER locos: 265xx (original NER numbers 1-13, LNER numbers 6480/81, 6490-99, 6999: these were respectively the two 1903 shunting engines, the ten Newport-Shildon locos, and the 1922 prototype for the NER's planned York-Newcastle electrification: Nos 3-12 had been in store since 1935 and No13 ever since it was built.

Most of the gaps in the TOPS sequence can be explained in terms of what was still around in the mid-60s

Classes 18,19. There were actually three different engine makes fitted to Class 17. Probably the intention was to give each a different class number.
Classes 32, 34. The push-pull and Hastings gauge variants of Class 33
Class 36. One of the LMS twins, No10001, was still in service in 1966, and neither was actually scrapped until 1968.
Class 38, 39. There were a number of variations in specifications during the production run of Class 37 - maybe the intention was to divide this class like the "Peaks" were?
Classes 49, 51, 53, 54. With the first 20 ("generators"), and various different engine ratings, there was plenty of scope for the Brush Type 4s. Asit was, only the V-16 engined version got its own classification. (The use of Class 53 for the "Falcon" came later)
Class 72 The first six class 73s had several differences from the rest of the class.
,
 
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43096

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(the 310s only got up to 092 - although they did work alongside the class 501 dc units, which were known by the last three digits of their carriage numbers, which were in the 611xx range).
Suspect it's a mis-type: there were 50 AM10s/310s - 046 to 095.
 
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