Earphone policies for Train Drivers

[jonathan01n]

I spotted a freight train driver using earphone while driving. I wondered is this allowed in this industry or not? If caught what will happen to the driver?

 

[GB]

Providing the earphones are not connected to anything I don’t think there is any rule to prevent you wearing them. Freight cabs can be very noisy so suspect they were used as earplugs.

However it maybe misconstrued as listening to music so probably doesn’t look good for the company image.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must admit I don't entirely understand why drivers can't listen to music in the cab to break the monotony (though obviously not prat with the radio while driving). It's usual practice for road traffic and is generally considered to increase, not reduce, attentiveness by staving off boredom.

Have any studies been done on this in a railway context?

 

[Muzer]

It presumably could distract from a sound they actually have to listen to. Cars don't tend to make many important noises when driving, but trains do.

 

[Mojo]

l suppose the difference is that unlike road vehicle operators, train drivers would be expected to be listening for radio messages as well as responding to time-critical alarms which music may prevent them from hearing and thus create an undue delay or safety risk.

 

[Tio Terry]

I must admit I don't entirely understand why drivers can't listen to music in the cab to break the monotony (though obviously not prat with the radio while driving). It's usual practice for road traffic and is generally considered to increase, not reduce, attentiveness by staving off boredom.

Have any studies been done on this in a railway context?

Don't drivers have to listen out for AWS and GSM-R messages amongst other alarm systems?

I also would question if it is common place to listen to headphones of any sought whilst driving a road vehicle, in-car entertainment system yes, but why wear any form of headphones?

 

[Dhassell]

I have seen a freight driver wearing large ear defenders before, so maybe the headphones where being used for the same reason?

 

[Muzer]

Yes, I'm told that Class 66 cabs are quite noisy working environments, so I fully understand drivers using ear protection for this reason. Does raise the question as to why they're allowed to be that noisy.

 

[GB]

Don't drivers have to listen out for AWS and GSM-R messages amongst other alarm systems?

I also would question if it is common place to listen to headphones of any sought whilst driving a road vehicle, in-car entertainment system yes, but why wear any form of headphones?

Might not be common, but I have worn headphones in the past if I am driving a big noisy van. First so I can listen to my own music, second to drown out the noise of the engine...its a much more pleasant drive.

 

[Steve Harris]

I also would question if it is common place to listen to headphones of any sought whilst driving a road vehicle, in-car entertainment system yes, but why wear any form of headphones?

Unfortunately i have seen car drivers wearing earphones while driving, and even 1 guy with proper headphones!!

Personally i think it should be made illegal, as you should be able to hear emergency services sirens etc. Which i can still do with a normal in car radio/ sound system even if its turned right up.

But i doubt if you can with earphones turned up to the max.

 

[matt_world2004]

I've seen tube drivers wear ear defenders on the central, they probably need them too.

 

[physics34]

I must admit I don't entirely understand why drivers can't listen to music in the cab to break the monotony (though obviously not prat with the radio while driving). It's usual practice for road traffic and is generally considered to increase, not reduce, attentiveness by staving off boredom.

Have any studies been done on this in a railway context?

it is a good point. There could be a quiet radio or something, but headphones would be an obvious no no.

 

[theageofthetra]

I must admit I don't entirely understand why drivers can't listen to music in the cab to break the monotony (though obviously not prat with the radio while driving). It's usual practice for road traffic and is generally considered to increase, not reduce, attentiveness by staving off boredom.

Have any studies been done on this in a railway context?

Yes and it increases attention (unless speech e.g speaking books)

 

[E_Reeves]

Maybe a system could be created for freight drivers which has headphones that reduce noise (not completely due to reasons such as collisions or exterior sounds) but they can hear sounds such as GSMR and AWS etc. through the headphones?

 

[A Challenge]

Have the in cab sounds (such as AWS and GSMR) go to the headphones?

 

[E_Reeves]

Have the in cab sounds (such as AWS and GSMR) go to the headphones?

Was that your own suggestion or were you questioning mine?

 

[JonathanP]

It amazes me how paranoid the UK railways are about driver distractions. I suppose it's a consequence of not having any kind of driver monitoring safety system until TPWS came along.

In Sweden, freight drivers listening to music is not just allowed, it's encouraged - there are locomotives fitted with car CD-radio units and speakers. I asked a driver about it and he said it was very useful aid to avoid drowsiness and loss of concentration on night shifts.

I'm not sure what the rules are in Germany, but I do know some freight drivers do play music in the cab there too.

 

[Bromley boy]

It amazes me how paranoid the UK railways are about driver distractions. I suppose it's a consequence of not having any kind of driver monitoring safety system until TPWS came along.

In Sweden, freight drivers listening to music is not just allowed, it's encouraged - there are locomotives fitted with car CD-radio units and speakers. I asked a driver about it and he said it was very useful aid to avoid drowsiness and loss of concentration on night shifts.

I'm not sure what the rules are in Germany, but I do know some freight drivers do play music in the cab there too.

Indeed. And yet the UK railway is quite happy for drivers to drive when dangerously fatigued. Being allowed to listen to music in a cab would be a good idea in my view for the reasons you outline above (God forbid drivers might be allowed to exercise some professional discretion over what they personally find distracting or otherwise).

 

[ainsworth74]

(God forbid drivers might be allowed to exercise some professional discretion over what they personally find distracting or otherwise)

I must admit I do find it odd that TOCs have these highly trained and well paid staff driving their trains and yet appear to trust them about as much as the work experience kid from the local Secondary School on their two week placement...

 

[Bromley boy]

I must admit I do find it odd that TOCs have these highly trained and well paid staff driving their trains and yet appear to trust them about as much as the work experience kid from the local Secondary School on their two week placement...

Indeed. Unfortunately the management culture on the railway is straight from the 70s (probably the 1870s!). Adversarial, heavy handed, blame culture, managers sit in a separate office and are rarely seen etc.

Very much a "them and us" attitude which is odd to those of us who've worked in other industries.

 

[superhands]

Aslef rasied concerns with the FOC about noise levels in the class 66 a few years ago, the later batch of 66's had modfication to reduce the levels in the cab. FOC allow drivers to use ear plugs.
TOC are not to keen on this but you can get ear plugs that block certain noise levels so you would be able to hear AWS, DVD, GSMR and train fault/ passcom alarms. It is time for TOC to look deeper into as when it comes to summer many units are driven with the droplights open, the wind noise can damage hearing as well

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Indeed. Unfortunately the management culture on the railway is straight from the 70s (probably the 1870s!). Adversarial, heavy handed, blame culture, managers sit in a separate office and are rarely seen etc.

Very much a "them and us" attitude which is odd to those of us who've worked in other industries.

No doubt your comment is based on your own particular experience but I think it's a bit unfair to tar all railway managers with the same brush. Certainly IME traincrew managers working at traincrew depots that happen to be located at stations are both visible and accessible. And there are plenty of managers higher up the chain of command who are familiar sights to their staff.

Aslef rasied concerns with the FOC about noise levels in the class 66 a few years ago, the later batch of 66's had modfication to reduce the levels in the cab. FOC allow drivers to use ear plugs.
TOC are not to keen on this but you can get ear plugs that block certain noise levels so you would be able to hear AWS, DVD, GSMR and train fault/ passcom alarms. It is time for TOC to look deeper into as when it comes to summer many units are driven with the droplights open, the wind noise can damage hearing as well

The issue of wind noise damaging hearing is known about but seemingly not too well understood. It's actually a good reason for traincrew to be so keen on air-conditioning being fitted to cabs, so long as the fans aren't themselves noisy! The issue is just as relevant to guards, indeed the aerodynamics of some unit ends is such that the wind noise is worse at the trailing end.

 

[Bromley boy]

No doubt your comment is based on your own particular experience but I think it's a bit unfair to tar all railway managers with the same brush. Certainly IME traincrew managers working at traincrew depots that happen to be located at stations are both visible and accessible. And there are plenty of managers higher up the chain of command who are familiar sights to their staff.

It is indeed a reflection on my experience and no more than that. Although whether the depot is located at a station or not makes little difference?!

I should also say personally I get on very well with my manager. The poor culture is no fault of his and I don’t blame him personally but having previously been managed, and managed people myself in other industries, the railway isn’t exactly what you’d call a grown up environment.

The plus side being that where I’ve previously sat near my manager/shared an office, these days I only see him every three months or so.

Works for both of us

 

[theageofthetra]

It amazes me how paranoid the UK railways are about driver distractions. I suppose it's a consequence of not having any kind of driver monitoring safety system until TPWS came along.

In Sweden, freight drivers listening to music is not just allowed, it's encouraged - there are locomotives fitted with car CD-radio units and speakers. I asked a driver about it and he said it was very useful aid to avoid drowsiness and loss of concentration on night shifts.

I'm not sure what the rules are in Germany, but I do know some freight drivers do play music in the cab there too.

Has been found to increase attentivenes

Indeed. And yet the UK railway is quite happy for drivers to drive when dangerously fatigued. Being allowed to listen to music in a cab would be a good idea in my view for the reasons you outline above (God forbid drivers might be allowed to exercise some professional discretion over what they personally find distracting or otherwise).

Exactly.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

It is indeed a reflection on my experience and no more than that. Although whether the depot is located at a station or not makes little difference?

That may well depend on where crew reliefs take place and also whether managers' offices are in proximity to the messroom. Suffice to say that on Northern during a shift encompassing normal office hours you will likely come into contact with at least one manager at some point.

I should also say personally I get on very well with my manager. The poor culture is no fault of his and I don’t blame him personally but having previously been managed, and managed people myself in other industries, the railway isn’t exactly what you’d call a grown up environment.

The plus side being that where I’ve previously sat near my manager/shared an office, these days I only see him every three months or so.

Works for both of us

And yet so many of the problems arising from that relative "lack of maturity" are due to managers who have risen through the ranks. But what chance does a "professional manager" appointed from outside have?!

To come back on topic a big problem with earphones in the cab is they tend to be associated with Portable Electronic Devices; many TOCs take a very strong line on PEDs in a live cab environment.

 

[theageofthetra]

That may well depend on where crew reliefs take place and also whether managers' offices are in proximity to the messroom. Suffice to say that on Northern during a shift encompassing normal office hours you will likely come into contact with at least one manager at some point.



And yet so many of the problems arising from that relative "lack of maturity" are due to managers who have risen through the ranks. But what chance does a "professional manager" appointed from outside have?!

To come back on topic a big problem with earphones in the cab is they tend to be associated with Portable Electronic Devices; many TOCs take a very strong line on PEDs in a live cab environment.

Or as a mangement consultant told me once.. t#rds in a toilet rise to the top too

 

[GB]

Unfortunately i have seen car drivers wearing earphones while driving, and even 1 guy with proper headphones!!

Personally i think it should be made illegal, as you should be able to hear emergency services sirens etc. Which i can still do with a normal in car radio/ sound system even if its turned right up.

But i doubt if you can with earphones turned up to the max.

There are currently no restriction on driving a car while being deaf so I don't see how earphones or extremely loud music through the car speakers are any different. In my experience I have seen the emergency services long before actually hearing them. Use your mirrors and take care at junctions and there won't be an issue.

 

[Pakenhamtrain]

It amazes me how paranoid the UK railways are about driver distractions. I suppose it's a consequence of not having any kind of driver monitoring safety system until TPWS came along.

In Sweden, freight drivers listening to music is not just allowed, it's encouraged - there are locomotives fitted with car CD-radio units and speakers. I asked a driver about it and he said it was very useful aid to avoid drowsiness and loss of concentration on night shifts.

I'm not sure what the rules are in Germany, but I do know some freight drivers do play music in the cab there too.

It's the same in NSW. In fact the union in NSW has said mandatory for DOO operated locos. If the train radio goes off it cuts out the AM/FM/CD/MP3 and goes through the speakers.

 

[Deafdoggie]

There are currently no restriction on driving a car while being deaf so I don't see how earphones or extremely loud music through the car speakers are any different. In my experience I have seen the emergency services long before actually hearing them. Use your mirrors and take care at junctions and there won't be an issue.

Indeed, Deaf people are safer drivers, as they pay more attention to what they see. You even get a discount on your insurance! You can even drive a bus as long as you can "use a telephone in an emergency situation"

 

[whoosh]

The railway prefer drivers to sit in an isolation tank environment in this country and then wonder why there are fatigue incidents. "Let's stick a camera pointing at the driver," is then their answer (!).

No one will put their neck on the line and allow it, just in case an incident happens where it could be said that listening to music was a factor. (You know, compared to currently, where sitting in an isolation tank environment is a factor - but a completely overlooked one.)