East Coast franchise discussion (Previously: Rumour VT/Stagecoach to win)

[harz99]

Some forum members will recall the days when 186mph capable units were a regular feature on the East Coast mainline.

Ah yes the "White Rose" Eurostar stock operated services. They never hit 186mph though, and struggled to keep time with excessive station dwell times.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I didn't say it was Virgin's fault. I was saying it in response to someone saying Virgin would have introduced 200mph trains on the ECML and leaving people to draw their own conclusions. However, anns you don't like that I'll conclude with "Virgin's proposal for 200mph running on the ECML would have never happened as Railtrack/Network Rail wouldn't have agreed to fund it and Virgin would have expected them to."

Nevertheless, your post didn't portray Virgin in a very positive manner. Virgin Trains advertised future 140 mph running on the back of the infrastructure improvements that had been announced. Virgin Trains would not have suggested that their new services would run at 140 mph unless they had been given assurances that the WCML improvements would be in place.

In terms of 200 mph running on the ECML, again Virgin would not have made that kind of statement unless they had assurances that it would be possible. To do anything else would have tarnished the Virgin brand.

 

[matacaster]

Whilst I admit it's off-topic, tricky dickies latest extremely high speed efforts neither inspire confidence nor promote the brand's safety credentials. Neither do they do much for his green credentials which surprisingly appear to take second place to any form of publicity. I suggest you read his biography. He got his first big deal by subterfuge, suggesting his organisation was MUCH bigger than a few doped-up hippies in a room. He's a great self-publicist one has to admit and also a ruthless negotiator who looks like a soft puppy. That's why he's screwed the taxpayer over and over again and is (allegedly) a billionaire. No way should he be allowed in ANY shape or form to be involved in both the east and west coast franchise. http://www.railforums.co.uk/images/icons/icon9.gif

 

[Robertj21a]

Whilst I admit it's off-topic, tricky dickies latest extremely high speed efforts neither inspire confidence nor promote the brand's safety credentials. Neither do they do much for his green credentials which surprisingly appear to take second place to any form of publicity. I suggest you read his biography. He got his first big deal by subterfuge, suggesting his organisation was MUCH bigger than a few doped-up hippies in a room. He's a great self-publicist one has to admit and also a ruthless negotiator who looks like a soft puppy. That's why he's screwed the taxpayer over and over again and is (allegedly) a billionaire. No way should he be allowed in ANY shape or form to be involved in both the east and west coast franchise. http://www.railforums.co.uk/images/icons/icon9.gif

Just sounds like a highly successful businessman to me. Clever and astute. No wonder that he and Brian Souter seem to work very well together.

 

[krus_aragon]

Are you suggesting that 'Super Voyagers' were not ordered for XC use? If so, why did they ever provide the infrastructure changes for tilting trains to be used on the XC route via Oxford?

I think that sprinterguy was suggesting that WC and XC used each other's Super Voyagers, swapping amongst themselves.

 

[sprinterguy]

Are you suggesting that 'Super Voyagers' were not ordered for XC use? If so, why did they ever provide the infrastructure changes for tilting trains to be used on the XC route via Oxford?

No, almost the opposite: Only the 4 x 4-car class 221s were ostensibly ordered for West Coast services to Holyhead, while the remainder of the fleet was intended for Crosscountry use, however in reality the 4-car units could be found all over the Crosscountry network right from their introduction, and 5-car units on Holyhead services.

 

[HSTEd]

Just sounds like a highly successful businessman to me. Clever and astute. No wonder that he and Brian Souter seem to work very well together.

Well he is a convicted tax fraudster......

 

[pablo]

Well he is a convicted tax fraudster......

I don't think it came to that, but he paid a hefty penalty to C&E.

 

[swt_passenger]

No, almost the opposite: Only the 4 x 4-car class 221s were ostensibly ordered for West Coast services to Holyhead, while the remainder of the fleet was intended for Crosscountry use, however in reality the 4-car units could be found all over the Crosscountry network right from their introduction, and 5-car units on Holyhead services.

Ah yes - I interpreted your post in the completely opposite sense!

That was the theory - a dedicated subfleet for the only route that WC supposedly needed Voyagers for...

 

[sprinterguy]

That was the theory - a dedicated subfleet for the only route that WC supposedly needed Voyagers for...

Yep - I could never understand how it was ever supposed to work in practice.

 

[bussnapperwm]

Do we think Stagecoach will introduce Megatrain if they win the franchise?

 

[westv]

Do we think Stagecoach will introduce Megatrain if they win the franchise?

If it enables me a chance to get some dirt cheap tickets for travelling to work then I hope so.

 

[PG]

Do we think Stagecoach will introduce Megatrain if they win the franchise?

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they did something similar to East Midlands Parkway busing in passengers off the ECML to a railhead - any bets on the areas served by the two open access operators being early targets

 

[westv]

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if they did something similar to East Midlands Parkway busing in passengers off the ECML to a railhead - any bets on the areas served by the two open access operators being early targets

Ah, on the other hand if it involves a bus I think I'd pass on any cheap tickets. The journey is long enough as it is.

 

[baza585]

I don't think it came to that, but he paid a hefty penalty to C&E.

I think you'll find his mother paid it for him. Its not quite the rags to riches story the Vermin PR spin merchants would have us believe.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Whilst I admit it's off-topic, tricky dickies latest extremely high speed efforts neither inspire confidence nor promote the brand's safety credentials. Neither do they do much for his green credentials which surprisingly appear to take second place to any form of publicity. I suggest you read his biography. He got his first big deal by subterfuge, suggesting his organisation was MUCH bigger than a few doped-up hippies in a room. He's a great self-publicist one has to admit and also a ruthless negotiator who looks like a soft puppy. That's why he's screwed the taxpayer over and over again and is (allegedly) a billionaire. No way should he be allowed in ANY shape or form to be involved in both the east and west coast franchise. http://www.railforums.co.uk/images/icons/icon9.gif

Not that you're bitter or envious or anything like that.

 

[WatcherZero]

Doesn't always get his way, remember his bid to operate the national lottery as a not for profit company and give all profits to charity, lost out to Camelots bid who promised to give the Treasury 12% of ticket revenue as franchise payments (and consequently 12% less to charity).

 

[Carlisle]

Are you suggesting that 'Super Voyagers' were not ordered for XC use? If so, why did they ever provide the infrastructure changes for tilting trains to be used on the XC route via Oxford?

I believe Oxford-Banbury was only really a short tilt proving ground,and fairly soon returned to normal line speed due possibly to Virgin XCs various problems after operation princess meaning they were less keen to pursue earlier plans like exploiting higher tilt speeds more widely,whereas the West Coast route was being equipped anyway primarily for the Pendilinos

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If as was mention in another thread is true about the emission regs being relaxed, then why don't both XC and Virgin order extra coaches to make all the Voyagers 5 car? Is there any platform on the routes they are used on that couldn't handle 6 car trains (with the possibility of 12 car trains - 2 units together)?

 

[jopsuk]

I'm sure XC could order the extra carriages if it were financially worth their while.

As for six car sets? A double would be 280m long. This is fifteen metres more than an 11 car Pendolino- and they don't fit that many platforms. If you want to go wibble with ordering extra cars, then extending all the XC fleet to 7 or even 8 car might be better, Virgin to 9 or 10.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If as was mention in another thread is true about the emission regs being relaxed, then why don't both XC and Virgin order extra coaches to make all the Voyagers 5 car? Is there any platform on the routes they are used on that couldn't handle 6 car trains (with the possibility of 12 car trains - 2 units together)?

All the Virgin Voyagers are 5-car, they reformed them a while ago. One set (at least) has two of the mostly-tables pseudo-first-class coaches, which is nice.

Neil

 

[jopsuk]

Virgin do have two spare driving cars that (theoretically) could be made up to a five car set with new carriages. Not that that's going to happen, as no-one is going to order any new class 22x carriages at all.

(Note: I said something similar about the possibility of HSTs being used internally in Scotland. I hear Satan is enjoying ice skating)

 

[Suraggu]

Latest from Tony Miles on another forum is that industry murmurings that First Group are to win the ICEC franchise, but nothing like the strong indication that GoVia was going to win the TSGN franchise.

 

[thenorthern]

When are we likely to find out who the winner is?

 

[Masboroughlad]

Latest from Tony Miles on another forum is that industry murmurings that First Group are to win the ICEC franchise, but nothing like the strong indication that GoVia was going to win the TSGN franchise.

Murmurings that First are to win on a thread about rumours saying Virgin/SC have won.... Maybe that suggests Eurostar/Keolis reign supreme?!! Just have to wait and see.....

 

[Suraggu]

When are we likely to find out who the winner is?

By the 30th November, the DfT like to make people wait.

 

[Saint66]

Before TGSN was announced, the initial rumours I seem to remember were that First had regained it, but then the GoVia rumours grew.

 

[D1009]

I believe Oxford-Banbury was only really a short tilt proving ground,and fairly soon returned to normal line speed due possibly to Virgin XCs various problems after operation princess meaning they were less keen to pursue earlier plans like exploiting higher tilt speeds more widely,whereas the West Coast route was being equipped anyway primarily for the Pendilinos

In actual fact there have never been differential line speeds for tilt between Oxford and Banbury. There was a high profile publicity campaign involving Branson himself when the first official tilting voyager ran over the route, but few people realised the train didn't actually go any faster than the non-tilting variety. There was as I recall an HST speed differential however which all the voyagers could exploit.

 

[ModernRailways]

Murmurings that First are to win on a thread about rumours saying Virgin/SC have won.... Maybe that suggests Eurostar/Keolis reign supreme?!! Just have to wait and see.....

I actually want it to be Eurostar/Keolis.

Maybe it's time though for the title to be changed to something that will actually represent what is actually being discussed.

 

[jon0844]

Before TGSN was announced, the initial rumours I seem to remember were that First had regained it, but then the GoVia rumours grew.

It's important that there are rumours for each bidder, so when one obviously has to win - some people can say they were right all along, even if the rumours were completely and utterly baseless.