East Coast Trains Class 803 Updates/Discussion

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by Speed43125, 27 Dec 2019.

  1. Speed43125

    Speed43125 Member

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    Hi all,
    I was looking for a thread to ask a few questions on the stock First are going to use for their new Open Access Operator seemingly named East Coast Trains. Apologies if there already is one, if so, please point me to it.

    The stock will be essentially 5-car 801s with the gen set removed. (please refrain from complaint on first Iron Board seating...)

    My main question was, given that they have only ordered 5 sets, which would imply they are not planning on any doubled up service, why they haven't just made the trains have 10? or even 11 or 12 carriages? Lower purchase/leasing cost this way? lower risk? Allows future extension of trains to suit demand?
     
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  3. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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  4. greatvoyager

    greatvoyager Established Member

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    Are they restricted to ordering only 5-car trains, as they are open access?
     
  5. DarloRich

    DarloRich Veteran Member

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    Why would they be restricted in this way?
     
  6. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    exactly; only possible reason that springs to mind would be that they will be limited to Platforms 9-10 at KGX? [post-rebuild]
     
  7. greatvoyager

    greatvoyager Established Member

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    Are there any open access operators who have trains longer than 5-cars?
    Could it also be so that they can't take too much custom away from LNER?
     
  8. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    Grand Central ran six car HSTs, did they not?
     
  9. greatvoyager

    greatvoyager Established Member

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    Yes but they weren't brand new. Have any trains ordered new for open access operations been longer than 5-car?
     
    Last edited: 27 Dec 2019
  10. greatvoyager

    greatvoyager Established Member

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    Why are they not being fitted with the diesel generator?
     
  11. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    On the subject of seats, might they get the design planned for use on Avanti West Coast services instead of Fainsa Sophias?

    It appears that FirstGroup/TI are finally coughing up to certify a wholly new design.
     
  12. greatvoyager

    greatvoyager Established Member

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    I hope so, considering that the 803s will be standard class only.
     
  13. MatthewRead

    MatthewRead On Moderation

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    Because they will be running all electric from London to Edinburgh
     
  14. JonathanH

    JonathanH Established Member

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    ...and presumably will be cancelled outright on days when there are are diversions via Cambridge, Lincoln, Leeds / Knottingley, the Durham Coast or the Tyne Valley
     
  15. Speed43125

    Speed43125 Member

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    At the speed an 801 can achieve on what would be very congested lines clogged with ECML traffic, they'd be thunderbird-hauled anyway, the gen set is more meant to just get the set along the line to a passing loop or station if there is OHLE issue.
     
  16. greatvoyager

    greatvoyager Established Member

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    I understand that, but 801s used by LNER have the diesel generator as a backup for moving on low power to, for example, the next station.
     
  17. aiden_g1

    aiden_g1 Member

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    The "battery pack" is an even lighter design than the single diesel engine/generator on the 801s making it more efficient and potentially lower track costs too? It's a "newer" technology also and probably why LNER 801 sets were never ordered with it back on the original procurement. That together with their existing 800s already having the same engine/generator fitted, it probably saves on additional maintenance cost for LNER having a standard.
     
  18. D365

    D365 Established Member

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    The Class 801s would be little use there, as their diesel power packs would only take them to 30mph max.
     
  19. greatvoyager

    greatvoyager Established Member

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    But the battery pack isn't to allow the train to move, it is to ensure power for the onboard systems such as doors, lights etc.
     
  20. greatvoyager

    greatvoyager Established Member

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    I guess the 803s are running less services so it isn't as important to ensure they can move with OHLE.
     
  21. superkev

    superkev Established Member

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    From someone who's been boiled alive on a few trains where either the air con doesn't work or theres no power I think taking out the standby engine is a retrograde step. As was said above I'm sure the battery will be sufficent only works power lights, PA, doors and hopefully toilets.
    K
     
  22. humbersidejim

    humbersidejim Member

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    Which is better than nothing, but when there's an OHLE failure of some sort, is it acceptable that these units could potentially block the line, when an 800/801/802 has the ability to move?
     
  23. Speed43125

    Speed43125 Member

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    Well, yeah, there are many classes unable to move without OHLE, obviously the dft made sure the GWML and ECML franchise orders were done this way, but I see no huge reason why a class not having to lug around diesel that'll need replacing every few weeks/months is a hugely bad thing.
    it's probably also be disproportionately expensive to fit the V12s in 5 car trains.
     
  24. humbersidejim

    humbersidejim Member

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    I can understand why an open access operator would be keen to minimise costs by specifying an electric only product, but when the Dft has incumbered the extra costs of last mile diesel on the principal operator in the name of increasing operational resilience, it seems like a retrograde step to allow an open access operator to potentially find itself in a situation where lines are blocked because of an OHLE failure
     
  25. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Are the WCML units going to have any kind of resilience provision, e.g. batteries?
     
  26. greatvoyager

    greatvoyager Established Member

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    Apparently they will be identical to the 800/801 units, so I'm guessing that means that they will be.
     
  27. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    Which saves at least 27tonnes per 5 car reducing OHLE power draw which might be useful given it is constrained in many places on the ECML till the upgrades.
     
  28. superkev

    superkev Established Member

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    It's the fragmented railway where any delays due to failure of the overhead are paid by Network Rail so no financial benefit to the TOC in having a get you out of trouble engine on the train.
    I'm of the opinion that all air conditioned electric and loco hauled trains should have a small standby generator, as most important buildings do, to at least power the lighting, toilets, heating, air con and hopefully move the train a short distance.
    K
     
  29. greatvoyager

    greatvoyager Established Member

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    Also, the single diesel generator is only for low speed moves, so there would still be some kind of delay.
     
  30. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    The modern OHLE used on GWML and GEML renewal hasn't suffered from failures like the low cost 1980s ECML wiring - may be the best solution is to make sure the ECML wiring is reliable and there aren't failures?
     
  31. hwl

    hwl Established Member

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    Of which more than half the power is needed to supply auxiliaries on 9car...
    The available traction power is equivalent to an 08 going flat out!
     

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