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East Coast Trains Ltd

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gimmea50anyday

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As mentioned above given TPE have bases at York and Newcastle (and Glasgow) it is possible resources such as offices and management and therefore crews will be based at these locations with any London work shared with Hull Trains facilities if they have any there. I expect offers for shared staffing and recruitment may well start with TPE and HT crews as they will have common route and traction knowledge. However at this stage we simply dont know.
 
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fgwrich

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It's actually ECTL, without the F. FEC was not chosen, for obvious reasons but it would have been fun to name the trains after Father Ted, Father Dougal, Father Jack, etc and have Mrs Doyle look-a-likes operating the trolley!

Just as well the trains would be Japanese Built rather than from the Chinese too...

I hope the customer service team will be up to scratch. I hope it won't be headed up by John and Mary!

Although I'm wondering, would a Brick be part of the testing process for these?

(I'll stop now)
 

modernrail

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When you consider TPE Leeds to Edinburgh, Hull Trains London to Hull and this new service you sort of end up with First a second full scale 'franchise' on the ECML. It isn't much of a leap to imagine a First East Coast brand/website etc.
 

swt_passenger

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When you consider TPE Leeds to Edinburgh, Hull Trains London to Hull and this new service you sort of end up with First a second full scale 'franchise' on the ECML. It isn't much of a leap to imagine a First East Coast brand/website etc.
I think DfT will quickly intervene if a franchise and open access operators are seen to be integrated at all, at least as seen by the public. Chiltern caught a cold over certain aspects of their operations when WSMR were operating, although I forget the exact details...
 

Leo555

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When you consider TPE Leeds to Edinburgh, Hull Trains London to Hull and this new service you sort of end up with First a second full scale 'franchise' on the ECML. It isn't much of a leap to imagine a First East Coast brand/website etc.

One could certainly see a First East Coast website brand which also sold Hull Trains Tickets in a dedicated way (e.g. highlighting First services when booking etc for both Hull and Edinburgh) and cold even as far reducing the Hull Trains Brand back to a just an onboard offer.

As ECTL will not offer first class but with the same manufacturer of rolling stock its a real possibility that the standard class offer could be considered the similar on both services. Akin to Virgin cross country and west coast where Hull Services could be considered west coast and receive a first class whereas Edinburgh could be the cross country with club class and a lower standard of service but otherwise the same brand?

Although no Club class offer on ECTL but just a standard offer.
 

Meerkat

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I am not seeing the gain for merging the offers.
I get the impression Hull Trains wants to be a quality operation and trades off its ‘Hullness’, pretending it is a minnow and not a subsidiary of a major.
The East Coast operation sounds a bit more EasyJet
 

Leo555

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I don't see them being fully merged. I would still imagine the Hull Trains sets to have the individual livery and be a 'Hull Trains Service' but having watched First slowly erode the Hull Trains brand from the green and gold into blue and pink I wouldn't see it beyond First to erode the brand further into a sort of partnership.

I fully agree that ECTL is meant to be more Easyjet but for along as they keep to the £25 average fare I cant see the ORR being able to do an awful lot if First decide to push some cost savings by semi merging the 2 brands. Especially if standard offer is very similar the average passenger wouldn't notice.

I don't see them fully being merged ever as Hull Trains is very Hull and proud but for as long as they kept the name of the service as a Hull Trains - like a Virgin 'Voyager' service and some distinction on the train, they could get away with it.
 

irish_rail

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As mentioned above given TPE have bases at York and Newcastle (and Glasgow) it is possible resources such as offices and management and therefore crews will be based at these locations with any London work shared with Hull Trains facilities if they have any there. I expect offers for shared staffing and recruitment may well start with TPE and HT crews as they will have common route and traction knowledge. However at this stage we simply dont know.
I think it highly unlikely they will bring in people from TPX they are short enough of traincrew as it is. The jobs will be open to anyone to apply I'd of thought. Be a good job for someone based in that part of the world I'd say.
 

gimmea50anyday

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I think DfT will quickly intervene if a franchise and open access operators are seen to be integrated at all...

Maybe but there are some savings to be made, even if on paper it’s made to look like a subcontract.

Bear in mind Hull’s control is the TPE comtrollers in Manchester’s ROC while GCs control is operated by the same people running the XC desks in Birmingham. TPE and Hull have also been working together to introduce the 802s and have used the same trainer.
 

swt_passenger

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Maybe but there are some savings to be made, even if on paper it’s made to look like a subcontract.

Bear in mind Hull’s control is the TPE comtrollers in Manchester’s ROC while GCs control is operated by the same people running the XC desks in Birmingham. TPE and Hull have also been working together to introduce the 802s and have used the same trainer.
Yes, but that wouldn’t be public facing, it would be happening in the background, which is why I originally included “as seen by the public” in my earlier comment.
 

gimmea50anyday

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Ah, see what you mean now. Perhaps with HT being open access they could get away with it tho. TPE on the other hand being a franchise... that said northern services were crewed by TPE staff in TPE uniforms using northern trains on the Yorkshire coast and Norhern branded units did appear on TPE workings as have TPE scotrail and especially GC trains work northern services so if franchises can contract in both franchise and OA operations then there is bound to be a legal and contractual way around DaFT rules.

We however simply don’t know and can only speculate. But it will be interesting (from my side anyway) who gets recruited/poached/jumps ship and what is shared. TBH I wouldn’t be surprised if HT and FEC are merged into one company, it is a possibility after all...
 

ainsworth74

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If I recall vaguely correctly Chiltern got into trouble because they had WSMR effectively providing franchised services between some stations which the DfT was very unhappy about and indeed I think was a breach of contract (I'm sure I recall Chiltern being fined some money for doing it). I also seem to recall VT got into trouble back when they had the West Coast and Cross Country franchises not for sharing branding but for blurring the lines between what was a VXC resource and what was a VWC resource. Which got the DfT understandably jumpy about what would happen if VT lost one of the franchises in the future.

So with regards to the current outfit I doubt that we'll see any combined branding (beyond the 'First Group' moniker). The DfT are unlikely to be happy for Transpennine to be re-branded in part "First East Coast" or "East Coast Trains" whilst Hull Trains trade on the Hull connection and I think have quite strong brand recognition in and around the Hull area. Certainly when I was at uni in Hull back in the late 00s early 10s people who weren't by any stretch of the imagination enthusiasts knew about Hull Trains.

What I do suspect we'll see is some technical cooperation behind the scenes for Hull Trains and East Coast Trains. For instance currently the control function for Hull Trains is, I believe, still provided by Transpennine but I wonder if having the two routes that might tip the balance into making it worthwhile to have a dedicated combined control for the two outfits in York. Could there be cooperation when it comes to training new staff for instance as well? Or perhaps even some staff shared between the two operations (Could an East Coast Trains driver work a Hull Trains service to and from Doncaster? Or perhaps a TM? Or maybe share some catering staff? Etc etc). I do think it's unlikely that we'll see much operational Transpennine involvement (beyond perhaps also providing control functions) but I wouldn't rule it out to be fair (perhaps East Coast Trains end up recruiting trainee drivers to then get tacked onto a Transpennine trainee driver course?). I certainly think that there will be clear demarcation between what is a franchised TPE resource/service and what is open access (probably via money changing hands at the operational level even if at the owning group level First Group's overall balance sheet doesn't change seeing as they're both First Group companies!).
 

Bletchleyite

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One could certainly see a First East Coast website brand which also sold Hull Trains Tickets in a dedicated way (e.g. highlighting First services when booking etc for both Hull and Edinburgh) and cold even as far reducing the Hull Trains Brand back to a just an onboard offer.

A thought on branding - could they call it Avanti East Coast, or might either the Government or Trenitalia object to that?
 

Clarence Yard

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The branding will not be the same. They are two very different services and the brand launch for the Edinburgh service will be when the branding will be announced. It won't involve the name Avanti!

By the way, it is Hull Trains Ltd and East Coast Trains Ltd, not First Hull Trains or First East Coast.

Any contract that a franchised company has with an OA operator has to be done on a proper basis. There can be no subsidy either way, even if the franchised company is owned by the same group.

There are obvious opportunities for some synergies between all the various FG companies but as far as crew and units is concerned, it is likely to be completely seperate.
 

Driver068

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In regards to any traincrew that maybe employed, with an OA operator im lead to believe it may leave employment insecurity so if East Coast trains LTD failed the crew effectively would be out of a job, unlike a franchised TOC. Correct me if im wrong. So if that happened would the unions step in.

I guess my question would be what job security would be provided when working for an OA operator.

Or am i mistaken
 

ainsworth74

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In regards to any traincrew that maybe employed, with an OA operator im lead to believe it may leave employment insecurity so if East Coast trains LTD failed the crew effectively would be out of a job, unlike a franchised TOC. Correct me if im wrong. So if that happened would the unions step in.

I guess my question would be what job security would be provided when working for an OA operator.

Or am i mistaken

None. If the OAO goes bust you're out of a job. If the OAO decides to make redundancies there would be the usual rules around that to follow but at the end of the day you're out of a job again if the company downsizes due to market conditions.

It has happened before Wrexham Shropshire & Marylebone Railway went under and all the staff were made redundant. I believe that all those who wanted jobs in the railway industry found them eventually but they were all made unemployed by WSMR going under and at short notice to boot (I think WSMR went from announcing to folding in a matter of days).
 

Driver068

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Well thats also my understanding. Would you say theres more risk working for East Coast trains LTD than say the likes of GC and HT as the latter seem more established. There you have 2 OAO who are well established and providing decent service and profit, so the likely hood of them throwing the towel in so to speak would be unlikely due to their gains. However ECT Ltd may not be as successful in the early days of operating so it could be a disaster from the start, or maybe they have an obligation for a certain time period, i dont know??
 

LNW-GW Joint

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There's also the fact that OA operators only have access rights for a limited time, and there's no guarantee they will be renewed.
That's particularly relevant on the WCML where capacity will be radically altered by HS2 when it arrives.
 

Driver068

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That is true but with the likes of HT and GC providing a good service and a financial benifit to others than the company itself, would you say its unlikely not to accept an extension just for the sake of it or vise versa one of the above giving it up.

Surly, correct me if im wrong, there would have to be a good enough reason NOT to extend an OAO when they are deemed to be doing so well. Examply GC being one of the top companies coming out of the passangers survey and then providing extra services to KGX and also new routes from Blackpool to Euston. I believe also HT are seeking extra services also. Being the companies doing so well existing one min then not the next would be highly unlikely do you think, again i dont know just gauging a better understanding.
 

gimmea50anyday

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An east coast based control for HT and ECT I would LOVE to see! It is my belief TPE has needed a York based controller to oversee operations on this side of the hills for many years. The potential of HT and ECT having a controller that could also manage TPEs east coast operations would be hugely beneficial.

I can only hope....
 

221129

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An east coast based control for HT and ECT I would LOVE to see! It is my belief TPE has needed a York based controller to oversee operations on this side of the hills for many years. The potential of HT and ECT having a controller that could also manage TPEs east coast operations would be hugely beneficial.

I can only hope....
I'd settle for any control that actually does anything! My limited experience of TPE control is not positive. I get the impression it's just a bunch of work experience kids that dont actually have a clue about communication and the way their poor decisions affect people on the ground.
 

tbtc

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1. If the plan is to pitch East Coast trains at the "budget" end of the market then why would you want to taint your "full price" TPE/HT brands with this attempt at a rail-based answer to EasyJet?

2. Every time there's a franchise change, people on here seem to fall over themselves with suggestions for co-operation that never results in anything serious - e.g. First getting SWR next to GWR - first the "competition" concerns, second the "hey, this would allow Service X to be merged with Service Y" kind of ideas - I'm not saying there won't be any co-operation but I'd imagine it'd be closer to the way that EMT and VTEC very occasionally lent/borrowed HSTs to help out, rather than the kind of things suggested at a "passenger" level (sharing an office may happen for back room stuff, but it'd have to be with an eye on the fact that the TPE will finish in around three years, so you can't guarantee any long term things.

Surly, correct me if im wrong, there would have to be a good enough reason NOT to extend an OAO when they are deemed to be doing so well. Examply GC being one of the top companies coming out of the passangers survey

3. An Open Access operation doing well at the customer satisfaction surveys is a bit like Merseyrail being the most punctual TOC - I don't mean to criticise good news but the operator with the highest satisfaction will generally be a leisure operation with few daily commuters, one that people have chosen to travel with rather than being forced to travel to work on hundreds of times a year (just like, all things being equal, the most punctual TOC ought to be either C2C or Merseyrail which are short/ self contained/ operate a fairly simple fleet/ can control their own timetables - these kind of trains crammed with stressed commuters may not be as "satisfied" as people having a jaunt down to That London but these are wholly different metrics!)
 

IanXC

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There's also the fact that OA operators only have access rights for a limited time, and there's no guarantee they will be renewed.
That's particularly relevant on the WCML where capacity will be radically altered by HS2 when it arrives.

The opposite is really true. OAOs have a similar right to their paths as FOCs. There has to be good reason to not renew their paths, to which alternatives must be offered. Franchised operators are of course, from an owning group's perspective, subject to the whim of the DfT.
 

Bletchleyite

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1. If the plan is to pitch East Coast trains at the "budget" end of the market then why would you want to taint your "full price" TPE/HT brands with this attempt at a rail-based answer to EasyJet?

I'll be honest, the orange team's customer service is light years ahead of Avanti West Coast.
 

Class 170101

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There's also the fact that OA operators only have access rights for a limited time, and there's no guarantee they will be renewed.
That's particularly relevant on the WCML where capacity will be radically altered by HS2 when it arrives.

Services will be altered just as much on the ECML I suspect once Phase 2B opens.
 

Leo555

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A thought on branding - could they call it Avanti East Coast, or might either the Government or Trenitalia object to that?

I don't think the Dft could object as its not a brand they have trademarked like LNER - I believe that it would be the same as Virgin, in as much as if they did use it, it would be up to First and Trenitalia. I would expect that Trenitalia might object but that would depend on whether they only have say on the full name 'Avanti West Coast' and no control of the 'Avanti' name - although if that were the case they could take it to court with First but I would not expect that as they have a partnership?

In turn I could see an announcement like - "This service is the Avanti East Coast Hull Trains Service to Hull' (bit of a mouthful!) Giving both the main and sub brand to keep the Hull Trains in there which is too valuable to loose. I don't think I could see it without some mention of 'Hull Trains' in there?
 

Clarence Yard

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It’s not going to be a joint brand with HT and Avanti is just for the West Coast.

That is definite.
 

ainsworth74

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It’s not going to be a joint brand with HT and Avanti is just for the West Coast.

That is definite.

I admire your persistence but I fear that you may need to say several hundred more times before some people take notice! :lol:
 

HH

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I have to point out that the ECT and Avanti offers will be quite different, so giving them the same brand name would be very foolish anyway (at least if you understand branding).
 

Mintona

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I admire your persistence but I fear that you may need to say several hundred more times before some people take notice! :lol:

It wouldn’t be the first time for Clarence Yard, as hundreds of posts on the GWR IET threads are testament to!
 
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