East Coast Trains: What are your hopes, fears and predictions?

[southern442]

My only concern capacity-wise was using 5-car rather than 9-car units, I know that might be hard to justify with regards to revenue extraction but when it comes to busy routes such as the ECML principles like these seem to work against capacity efficiency.

 

[Halish Railway]

My only concern capacity-wise was using 5-car rather than 9-car units, I know that might be hard to justify with regards to revenue extraction but when it comes to busy routes such as the ECML principles like these seem to work against capacity efficiency.

They’re standard class throughout, thus they do not experience the problem of poor usage of space caused by having 2+1 seating and a kitchen that takes up half of the DPTF. If the 803s don’t have a buffet then that would spare up even more room to put 2+2 seating.

 

[DB]

They’re standard class throughout, thus they do not experience the problem of poor usage of space caused by having 2+1 seating and a kitchen that takes up half of the DPTF. If the 803s don’t have a buffet then that would spare up even more room to put 2+2 seating.

I suspect they won't have a buffet - none of the 80x do so far apart from the LNER ones.

That said, if they have a catering trolley they will need somewhere for that to be kept, filled with water, etc - but that doesn't require a large space and could be in one of the crumple zone areas.

 

[Domh245]

The capacity of the 803s is 400, going by Beacon Rail's page. An all-standard TPE/HT 802 would come in at 376, so unless the passenger they give on the page has generous tolerances, they need to fit an extra 24 seats in. Replacing all luggage racks with a pair of seats would get you to 396

 

[Journeyman]

The capacity of the 803s is 400, going by Beacon Rail's page. An all-standard TPE/HT 802 would come in at 376, so unless the passenger they give on the page has generous tolerances, they need to fit an extra 24 seats in. Replacing all luggage racks with a pair of seats would get you to 396

Much smaller galley?

 

[Domh245]

Much smaller galley?

No galley in the hypothetical all standard config. The 376 starting figure comes from 2x coach A (=112) and 3x coach C/D (=264) using this seating plan

 

[Glenn1969]

Are they still going for October even though no one has any idea when long distance travel will be allowed for non essential purposes?

 

[Carlisle]

Are they still going for October even though no one has any idea when long distance travel will be allowed for non essential purposes?

If it’s not allowed by October, something not currently foreseen will have gone seriously wrong with the vaccination program

 

[Bald Rick]

Are they still going for October even though no one has any idea when long distance travel will be allowed for non essential purposes?

ECTL don’t have to decide when to activate the service for several months yet.

 

[Class 170101]

ECTL don’t have to decide when to activate the service for several months yet.

Is there actually space for them in the timetable before the May 22 recast?

 

[paul1609]

The capacity of the 803s is 400, going by Beacon Rail's page. An all-standard TPE/HT 802 would come in at 376, so unless the passenger they give on the page has generous tolerances, they need to fit an extra 24 seats in. Replacing all luggage racks with a pair of seats would get you to 396

Given that 80% of their market is going to be new to rail, from coach and air, airline seating would be the 80%'s expectation, take the tables out of the trailer coaches, shouldn't be a problem fitting another 12 seats taking the 3 trailers to 100 seats- 50 in each of the end cars, job done.

 

[Bald Rick]

Is there actually space for them in the timetable before the May 22 recast?

Yes - they have access rights remember, so space has to be found (making all reasonable efforts). Whether it is ‘good’ space or not remains to be seen!

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes - they have access rights remember, so space has to be found (making all reasonable efforts). Whether it is ‘good’ space or not remains to be seen!

What happens if they can be theoretically pathed in the timetable, but there’s no electrical power available on a significant part of the route?

 

[Bald Rick]

What happens if they can be theoretically pathed in the timetable, but there’s no electrical power available on a significant part of the route?

Then Part D of the Network Code is applied. Operators’ slots with firm rights (like ECTL) have primacy over those that have contingent rights (like, ahem, ‘others’)

 

[Class 170101]

Yes - they have access rights remember, so space has to be found (making all reasonable efforts). Whether it is ‘good’ space or not remains to be seen!

In that case then is it possible that should May 22 be delayed but with East Coast Trains on the graph not withstanding swt_passenger's point

What happens if they can be theoretically pathed in the timetable, but there’s no electrical power available on a significant part of the route?

that Middlesbrough could still happen as extension of existing York service, and Harrogate, Huddersfield, Skipton and Bradford Forster Square as extension of the existing Leeds services until the May 22 proposed timetable issues can be resolved either for May 22 or later if extra planning time is needed?

 

[Bald Rick]

In that case then is it possible that should May 22 be delayed but with East Coast Trains on the graph not withstanding swt_passenger's point

that Middlesbrough could still happen as extension of existing York service, and Harrogate, Huddersfield, Skipton and Bradford Forster Square as extension of the existing Leeds services until the May 22 proposed timetable issues can be resolved either for May 22 or later if extra planning time is needed?

That’s a very different question. That depends what LNERs funder wants to do.

 

[takno]

Given that 80% of their market is going to be new to rail, from coach and air, airline seating would be the 80%'s expectation, take the tables out of the trailer coaches, shouldn't be a problem fitting another 12 seats taking the 3 trailers to 100 seats- 50 in each of the end cars, job done.

I wouldn't say that the passengers themselves will be new to rail. The individual journeys will have been captured from air travel, but most of the passengers will have done it by train before. The seats will certainly be more comfortable than plane seats whatever the configuration, but the passengers will be in them for 3 times as long, and they may well put a premium on being able to spend that time around a table.

 

[fgwrich]

So unlikely to get much summer domestiv traffic then (unless we have an 'Indian' Summer I suppose).

You have to remember that Edinburgh is also a very tourist driven city, and it's Festive Season (Christmas Market + Hogmanay) is incredibly popular. If First get this aspect right (publicity etc) then I think they'll do well to compete with NX / Megabus / LNER etc.

 

[paul1609]

I wouldn't say that the passengers themselves will be new to rail. The individual journeys will have been captured from air travel, but most of the passengers will have done it by train before. The seats will certainly be more comfortable than plane seats whatever the configuration, but the passengers will be in them for 3 times as long, and they may well put a premium on being able to spend that time around a table.

Personally if the average fare is going to be £25 for London to Edinburgh. I'd be happy with an airline seat. East Coast could leave the tables in the end coaches and charge a premium for a table seat much like Easyjet do with upfront seats on the London- Edinburgh Flights.

 

[takno]

Personally if the average fare is going to be £25 for London to Edinburgh. I'd be happy with an airline seat. East Coast could leave the tables in the end coaches and charge a premium for a table seat much like Easyjet do with upfront seats on the London- Edinburgh Flights.

My thinking is that they would almost always be able to fill the tables at 40 quid, and still almost always beating the air fare and winning on comfort. If you can get the same revenue from fewer cattle, why would you make life difficult for yourself?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally if the average fare is going to be £25 for London to Edinburgh. I'd be happy with an airline seat. East Coast could leave the tables in the end coaches and charge a premium for a table seat much like Easyjet do with upfront seats on the London- Edinburgh Flights.

Good point, I suppose that while easyJet doesn't have distinct marked-out classes of service it does still have multiple classes in terms of exactly what seat you select (or accept at random), and as this is meant to be an airline style concept there's no reason that concept couldn't apply.

I wonder might they also offer something like I recall one of the Scandinavian open access operators do, i.e. allowing a lone traveller to pay extra (but not quite the full fare extra) to keep the next seat empty, perhaps only offered on quieter trains where you'd have spare seats anyway so you're just reshuffling which seats are "spare"? At the right price I'd consider that, as it provides much of the benefit of the "1 side" that constitutes most of the selling point of First Class to me. And of course is made possible by compulsory reservation, as without it there's little to stop a walk-up passenger plonking themselves there.

 

[paul1609]

My thinking is that they would almost always be able to fill the tables at 40 quid, and still almost always beating the air fare and winning on comfort. If you can get the same revenue from fewer cattle, why would you make life difficult for yourself?

Personally I wouldn't pay any premium for a table seat( they never have enough leg room for me) and at £40 the service is beginning to look unattractive when compared to the overnight megabus (normally pay under £20), split fares via Crewe or even railcard discounted Avanti fares. If you are faced with premium fares to a Central London Termius, Easyjets lower tiers of fares from Gatwick will still be attractive.

 

[Ianno87]

Personally if the average fare is going to be £25 for London to Edinburgh. I'd be happy with an airline seat. East Coast could leave the tables in the end coaches and charge a premium for a table seat much like Easyjet do with upfront seats on the London- Edinburgh Flights.

That's kind of how Ouigo works in France - pay slightly more for niceties like a plug socket (though for 803s I'd expect sockets at all seats as standard).

Personally I wouldn't pay any premium for a table seat( they never have enough leg room for me) and at £40 the service is beginning to look unattractive when compared to the overnight megabus (normally pay under £20), split fares via Crewe or even railcard discounted Avanti fares. If you are faced with premium fares to a Central London Termius, Easyjets lower tiers of fares from Gatwick will still be attractive.

Laptop users may gladly pay a premium, for example (though 80x airline seats tend to be very good with laptops).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Personally I wouldn't pay any premium for a table seat( they never have enough leg room for me) and at £40 the service is beginning to look unattractive when compared to the overnight megabus (normally pay under £20), split fares via Crewe or even railcard discounted Avanti fares. If you are faced with premium fares to a Central London Termius, Easyjets lower tiers of fares from Gatwick will still be attractive.

I'm not sure that is the main thing they're competing against, partly because there's only one of those (plus a NatEx doing the same) so you're only talking a maximum of about 100 passengers per day or so, and because passengers who are willing to take an overnight coach journey are as far budget as you can get without not bothering at all (an overnight seated coach really is the lowest "class" of travel conceivable short of kipping in the back of a bin lorry), so they will likely not manage to succeed in competing with that on price.

Of course, what you do show there is why that sort of supplement works - see speedy boarding, extra legroom seats etc - because some people think it's not worth the money and so benefit from a cheaper fare, but others think it's great and willingly hand over more, so you get both markets. I'd not like to see stuff that makes travel deliberately worse e.g. luggage restrictions or sham "check-ins" like the French did with Ouigo, but I equally can see the point in seating-related upgrades even in a single-class cabin, and indeed I usually take advantage of them to get an extra legroom window seat because that's valuable to me.

Laptop users may gladly pay a premium, for example (though 80x airline seats tend to be very good with laptops).

Yep, there are many downsides of the "good old" Sophia, but also upsides, one notable one being, as you say, that the tray table is a good size and has the pull-out laptop support, which when coupled with the very upright seat back means laptop use is well-accommodated.

 

[Journeyman]

Personally if the average fare is going to be £25 for London to Edinburgh. I'd be happy with an airline seat. East Coast could leave the tables in the end coaches and charge a premium for a table seat much like Easyjet do with upfront seats on the London- Edinburgh Flights.

I'd actually pay a premium for an airline seat over a table!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd actually pay a premium for an airline seat over a table!

They may of course offer exactly that, namely paid seat selection otherwise you get something random. Though I suspect you're likely to be in luck as I'd figure that tables would cost more, as might any non-priority extra legroom seats.

If I were them I'd keep back the bad seats (non-window-aligned or the narrow ones against the door pockets if they're having those) to allocate "randomly", as fewer people will pay for those, and a high risk of getting one might encourage more people to pay for selection.

 

[Journeyman]

They may of course offer exactly that, namely paid seat selection otherwise you get something random. Though I suspect you're likely to be in luck as I'd figure that tables would cost more, as might any non-priority extra legroom seats.

Of course. I prefer airline seats as I usually travel alone, and would far rather not spend the journey sat opposite a stranger (or two) for four hours.

 

[py_megapixel]

They may of course offer exactly that, namely paid seat selection otherwise you get something random

Of course. I prefer airline seats as I usually travel alone, and would far rather not spend the journey sat opposite a stranger (or two) for four hours.

Is it likely that they will actually enforce seat reservations then? (e.g. if your ticket says seat B34 you MUST sit in B34)?
Currently there aren't any TOCs which - in normal times, anyway - will insist you move if you have a reservation for a seat other than the one you have taken.

 

[Ianno87]

Is it likely that they will actually enforce seat reservations then? (e.g. if your ticket says seat B34 you MUST sit in B34)?
Currently there aren't any TOCs which - in normal times, anyway - will insist you move if you have a reservation for a seat other than the one you have taken.

If East Coast Trains are planning on having a relatively high loading factor, then you'll be de-facto restricted to your reserved seat by virtue of all the others being allocated anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it likely that they will actually enforce seat reservations then? (e.g. if your ticket says seat B34 you MUST sit in B34)?
Currently there aren't any TOCs which - in normal times, anyway - will insist you move if you have a reservation for a seat other than the one you have taken.

If they choose to have an airline style policy of charging for allocation based on the merits of particular seats, yes, I'd imagine so. The whole thing is to be modelled on a low-cost airline.

If East Coast Trains are planning on having a relatively high loading factor, then you'll be de-facto restricted to your reserved seat by virtue of all the others being allocated anyway.

That too.