East Kilbride line: ScotRail must avoid diesel trains on the branch once electrified

[Falcon1200]

Can't believe the amount of negative posts on social media where this info has been shared.

Just wait until the scheme is completed yet, as some suggest, DMUs will still operate the service! Scotrail must do everything possible to avoid this.

 

[hexagon789]

Just wait until the scheme is completed yet, as some suggest, DMUs will still operate the service! Scotrail must do everything possible to avoid this.

What do you suggest they do?

 

[Falcon1200]

What do you suggest they do?

If they cannot cover the East Kilbride service from their own resources without adversely affecting other EMU-operated routes, obtain displaced EMUs from elsewhere; Class 321 or 350 for example. They have done similar, very successfully, in the past.

 

[waverley47]

If they cannot cover the East Kilbride service from their own resources without adversely affecting other EMU-operated routes, obtain displaced EMUs from elsewhere; Class 321 or 350 for example. They have done similar, very successfully, in the past.

My goodness, why are we going over this again?

The electrification is purely a positive development. It's better to have the option for electric traction than not, it's better to have the infrastructure there and use it sporadically than be lumbered with diesel or battery traction on the line forever.

It's being wired, let's just see what happens after it's wired.

 

[Charged up]

Transport Scotland [TS] has known for more than 5 years that "new" rolling stock was needed for East Kilbride /Barrhead services mostly due to the demise of the class 156 fleet, which was built in 1986. Either EMUs or BEMUs were required to replace c156s, and these could have been secured from a variety of sources, but once again TS went straight to the "answer" of putting up wires rather than a rolling stock solution. Therefore the procurement of the required rolling stock has been overlooked, until it is too late, given the need for staff training and potential infrastructure support works before December 2025.

The blind faith in funding the installation of wires on the EK branch, rather than already securing modern non-diesel rolling stock, better suited for the commuter/ suburban line is another example of where TS & Scot Government are not prioritising passengers needs. In addition by relying on sloth-like infrastructure delivery they are also failing to follow the principles of the Rail Decarbonisation Action Plan, & the linked Fleet Strategy, which should drive this overall aspiration to move forward quickly and efficiently with the removal of diesel units ahead of the "dream" pf full scale electrification.

The funds for wiring the 22kms of the EK branch [c£80M] should have been re-focussed on the line south of Barrhead towards Kilmarnock and to accelerate Dalmeny /Fife wiring. This better use of scarce resource should then have enabled a larger battery electric fleet/s to be procured and introduce partial electrification across these routes freeing up DMUs long before full scale electrification would ever be achieved. TS should have instructed ScotRail, in 2020/21 to secure either a new BEMU fleet or re-purposed EMU fleet with batteries fitted eg-[c321s/ c350-2s / c380s / c385s] which would have also helped free up class 158s in the east to then allow all class 156s to be fully withdrawn in 2025.

Thankfully passengers will see, long needed, significant improvements to facilities and accessibility along the route but due to this lack of forward thinking on the rolling stock side it should be noted that once all the works are completed in late 2025, as it stands, there will be no seating capacity increases, no journey time reductions, no drivers opening doors to reduce dwell times and some EK services will still be operated by diesel trains. Given this underwhelming outcome it may be hard to convince rail users that the 5 months of closures and the total investment in new wires will all be worth it.

 

[Transilien]

The funds for wiring the 22kms of the EK branch [c£80M] should have been re-focussed on the line south of Barrhead towards Kilmarnock and to accelerate Dalmeny /Fife wiring.

The East Kilbride line serves one of the largest towns in Scotland and passes through various populous suburbs of Glasgow. I agree that these routes you mention should be electrified, but it was worth it electrifying such an important suburban line. I bet if Kilmarnock was being electrified instead people would be complaining that East Kilbride wasn’t getting the wires!

East Kilbride electrification is a net positive, but we will have to wait to see the improvements longer than most electrifications.

 

[Falcon1200]

some EK services will still be operated by diesel trains.

I am still sceptical that this will be the case! If Scotrail cannot resource the service entirely from their existing EMU fleet there is surely plenty of time, still, to obtain some Class 321 sets and reduce them to 3 cars, as has already been done; And these are a type already in use in Scotland, unlike Class 365 which was introduced remarkably quickly to the Edinburgh/Queen Street service.

 

[317 forever]

I thought I read somewhere that they already have enough spare 380/385s to cover the service anyway, possibly due to Covid reductions.

 

[alf]

I have been reading the speculative thread on SWR third rail class 450s replacing 158s on the Exter Salisbury line.

A poster says SWR has many surplus 450 Desiro units because of a fall in commuting demand after Covid & their new class 701 units.
The 450 third rail units have pantograph wells for AC work.

The same thread mentions LNWR (Euston to Crewe etc) will soon have spare 350 Desiro 25kv units.
They could be driven up the WCML tomorrow to East Kilbride followed by the SWRv450s with their cement ballast replaced by their stored transformers.
There is no shortage of 4 car EMUs that could have their trailer cars removed.

 

[SC318250]

I have said this on various threads

Scotrail have enough units off peak to operate East Kilbride services but not for peak services

My honest opinion would be to take the spare class 323 and use them for East Kilbride services. Think there is 9 units.

6 would be needed for core service and u could probably put one on Barrhead, which would mean 380/1 realeased

 

[317 forever]

I have said this on various threads

Scotrail have enough units off peak to operate East Kilbride services but not for peak services

My honest opinion would be to take the spare class 323 and use them for East Kilbride services. Think there is 9 units.

6 would be needed for core service and u could probably put one on Barrhead, which would mean 380/1 realeased

Furthermore, the 323s are 3 car, unlike the 350/2s (or 450s, which are less suitable being 3rd rail).

 

[Mgameing123]

To be honest. Its better to just run whatever train you have. Electric or Diesel I don't care (except if there are stations in tunnels with poor ventilation). Its better to have a train service running than no train service. The only reason why people are complaining known from experience is just because the wires are ugly.

 

[Charged up]

I have said this on various threads

Scotrail have enough units off peak to operate East Kilbride services but not for peak services

My honest opinion would be to take the spare class 323 and use them for East Kilbride services. Think there is 9 units.

6 would be needed for core service and u could probably put one on Barrhead, which would mean 380/1 realeased

the whole point about the rolling stock strategy which should have driven where to electrify is to reduce the number of small, bespoke and rapidly ageing EMU and DMU fleets.

If procurement for a new fleet of electrics, some batteries installed, was started in 2020/21 they could have been introduced over the next 18 months to replace C318s, C320s and most of the C156s/ C153s to deliver decarbonised services across Strathclyde. Instead TS choose to put funds into OHL on the EK branch and invest around £80m to get 22kms of wires in place. The investment in station facilities along the route is most welcome but passengers will see no change to the timetable, frequency or seating capacity after December 2025 when an outcome based on rolling stock would offer better value for money, reduced service disruption and earlier improvements for passengers.

The same fleet of BEMUs could then have been introduced in 2026/27 to serve Edinburgh- Borders / Fife + Dundee routes which would have freed up some C158s for WHL/ Stranraer & Dumfries routes and C170s to run on inter-city routes to replace the crumbling HSTs. Overall this rationalisation of fleets and greater economies of scale should provide a much needed reduction in the cost of the ScotRail operation which will come under increasing financial pressure with more deserving Scottish Government budget requirements.

To be honest. Its better to just run whatever train you have. Electric or Diesel I don't care (except if there are stations in tunnels with poor ventilation). Its better to have a train service running than no train service. The only reason why people are complaining known from experience is just because the wires are ugly.

not sure the station staff at Glasgow Central would agree that diesels still regularly using the station under wires is a good long term prospect.

 

[Transilien]

I do think that a special fleet speced for the Glasgow suburban services would be preferable to a “one size fits all fleet” as services such as the Cathcart Circle or East Kilbride Line are quite different from the Borders line with their frequent stops and short distances covered. Perhaps a new fleet similar to the new DART trains built at Derby would work for Glasgow better than just another 380 or 385 like train.

 

[FlyingPotato]

I do think that a special fleet speced for the Glasgow suburban services would be preferable to a “one size fits all fleet” as services such as the Cathcart Circle or East Kilbride Line are quite different from the Borders line with their frequent stops and short distances covered. Perhaps a new fleet similar to the new DART trains built at Derby would work for Glasgow better than just another 380 or 385 like train.

I agree, I think for a design similar to the 717 or the 700s would be great, in 6 formation to run the suburban services

 

[David M]

The Scottish press and the kid on Scottish press (Express, Mail) will have an absolute field day if diesels remain in use once the electrification is complete.
Expect our BBC to go way overboard if this is the case.
If there aren't enough units to make the line all electric from the word go then that's incredibly bad planning and, also, very disappointing.

 

[Transilien]

The Scottish press and the kid on Scottish press (Express, Mail) will have an absolute field day if diesels remain in use once the electrification is complete.
Expect our BBC to go way overboard if this is the case.
If there aren't enough units to make the line all electric from the word go then that's incredibly bad planning and, also, very disappointing.

It’s ironic considering if they weren’t electrifying at all there would be no bad press!

 

[Starmill]

A tiny number of remaining DMU-operated services per day isn't really a problem is it? If it's say 6 a day that's only 30ish a week. Why does it matter?

 

[hexagon789]

A tiny number of remaining DMU-operated services per day isn't really a problem is it? If it's say 6 a day that's only 30ish a week. Why does it matter?

It's not a 'handful' though. It's 4/5 weekday diagrams and half on weekends.

 

[Starmill]

It's not a 'handful' though. It's 4/5 weekday diagrams and half on weekends.

Still doesn't sound like many services to me.

 

[hexagon789]

Still doesn't sound like many services to me.

80% of diagrams isn't many?

 

[Starmill]

80% of diagrams isn't many?

If you read the thread it's pointed out that off peak they're all covered so it's only the peak diagrams that won't be

 

[hexagon789]

If you read the thread it's pointed out that off peak they're all covered so it's only the peak diagrams that won't be

Ah, well that's changed.

Back in the EK Electrification Progress thread, it was said it was 1 of 5 diagrams on weekdays and 2 on weekends that were covered; not all off-peak diagrams.

 

[Starmill]

Ah, well that's changed.

Back in the EK Electrification Progress thread, it was said it was 1 of 5 diagrams on weekdays and 2 on weekends that were covered; not all off-peak diagrams.

I've not got insider info unfortunately so if there's multiple competing statements about which diagrams are and aren't EMU worked we may have to wait until closer to the time to know.

 

[Charged up]

It’s ironic considering if they weren’t electrifying at all there would be no bad press!

There has been lots of bad press through the years about the poor railway service from EK to Glasgow and the declining standard of wholly inappropriate rolling stock on the route. Compare the frequency 6tph and capacity provided from Livingston [pop. 56k] to Edinburgh with the 2tph plus more in the peak from EK [pop. 75k] to Glasgow.

Transport Scotland has pursued its vanity project of electrifying the EK branch when fitting existing EMUs with batteries could have offered an efficient and vfm outcome which might have even seen BEMUs running already on the route without the need to close the line for 5 months next year and long running road disruption for bridge reconstruction along the line.

A tiny number of remaining DMU-operated services per day isn't really a problem is it? If it's say 6 a day that's only 30ish a week. Why does it matter?

The inability of TS to think out of the box and pursue a rolling stock focused solution will see c. £140M spent on the project with no improvements to service frequency or seating capacity after it is complete and the embarrassing issue of some C156s running under wires in 2026. I would say in these days of increasing scarce resources from the Scottish Government that matters as they will want positive full outputs not just a partial gain.

 

[Transilien]

There has been lots of bad press through the years about the poor railway service from EK to Glasgow and the declining standard of wholly inappropriate rolling stock on the route. Compare the frequency 6tph and capacity provided from Livingston [pop. 56k] to Edinburgh with the 2tph plus more in the peak from EK [pop. 75k] to Glasgow.

Transport Scotland has pursued its vanity project of electrifying the EK branch when fitting existing EMUs with batteries could have offered an efficient and vfm outcome which might have even seen BEMUs running already on the route without the need to close the line for 5 months next year and long running road disruption for bridge reconstruction along the line.

Livingston also has 2 electrified lines to both Glasgow and Edinburgh, its only fair that East Kilbride with its high population gets an electrified service too. Why is East Kilbride being singled out when Barrhead was electrified recently and many of the services that run down that line are diesel? Also, it only makes sense for East Kilbride to be electrified from an operational point of view as it means that the Glasgow Suburban lines can be standardised as (non-battery) EMUs. This situation is temporary and much better than in England or Wales where they begin electrification schemes and leave them unfinished because bi-mode or battery technology allows for cost cutting measures (this is what I fear will happen with Fife electrification). It has been proven time and time again that OHLE powered electric trains have been the most efficient and cheapest way to power a railway; so why must we distract ourselves with 5 month road closures and temporary rolling stock arrangements when the East Kilbride Line will never have to be closed again for electrification?

 

[Starmill]

The inability of TS to think out of the box and pursue a rolling stock focused solution will see c. £140M spent on the project with no improvements to service frequency or seating capacity after it is complete and the embarrassing issue of some C156s running under wires in 2026. I would say in these days of increasing scarce resources from the Scottish Government that matters as they will want positive full outputs not just a partial gain.

Realistically any thinking outside of the box would just involve robbing 'Peter to pay Paul'.