East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

[Jozhua]

I love the quote from the interim MD regarding there being no DCO or DOO in the new franchise "it's lovely, it's nice not to have to deal with that issue"

Hahaha, I'm honestly so glad the DaFT hasn't put that requirement in the franchise. Doesn't take a crystal ball to predict the outcome, especially when the stance of the unions is well known.

I'm sure the 180's will cause satisfactory suffering in the meantime.

 

[yorksrob]

I regular travel to Nottingham. Personally I find the 222s good trains, and ride better than the HSTs.

The 222's are indeed good trains, however it boils down to numbers of trains and capacity.

May I borrow your crystal ball for Saturdays lottery numbers please?

Who needs a crystal ball, when you have Hull trains having to borrow in not one, but two HST's to cover because they're so unreliable.

 

[Aictos]

The Nottingham fast has about 70min at St Pancras and about 30min at Nottingham. Rearranging the timetable for that will save one set straight away.

Do they really need 70 mins to turn a set around at London as surely 30 to 40 minutes is plenty of time?

It’s wasteful use of turnaround times that is rather inefficient and it’s good that Abellio are actually tackling this to improve the service.

My only gripe and this happens under Stagecoach is they advertise the next departure from Nottingham even as the inbound has just terminated and is disgorging it’s passengers, trains shouldn’t be advertised until the turnaround duties have been completed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

May I borrow your crystal ball for Saturdays lottery numbers please?

I don't think this is a game of chance - it's a game of there being ample evidence that 180s are unreliable rubbish fit only for scrap.

They have nice interiors, but what's the point of a nice interior if you can't sit in it because you've been turfed off because it's been cancelled?

 

[InTheEastMids]

I don't think this is a game of chance - it's a game of there being ample evidence that 180s are unreliable rubbish fit only for scrap.

They have nice interiors, but what's the point of a nice interior if you can't sit in it because you've been turfed off because it's been cancelled?

I haven't yet seen the MR article that sparked this latest discussion. Any half-decent rail journalist will well know the reliability issues of the 180s so naturally will have asked EMR specific questions about why HT have such significant issues, and what EMR will do to improve things.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I haven't yet seen the MR article that sparked this latest discussion. Any half-decent rail journalist will well know the reliability issues of the 180s so naturally will have asked EMR specific questions about why HT have such significant issues, and what EMR will do to improve things.

I've got MR in my bag to read on the train later (appropriately) so I'll see if they do have a proposal - but no other TOC has yet made them reliable[1], so I am cynical.

[1] Well, I think they were OK on Northern, but running a 125mph unit on a 75mph stopping service is not exactly going to tax it, a bit like running 100mph express steam locomotives at 25mph on preserved railways tends to mean they stay reasonably reliable.

 

[Kneedown]

As many have said, there are reliability problems with the 180's, this is well known and i'm reasonably certain that this small issue will not have escaped the attention of those tasked with introduciing the fleet to EMR services, and that work to attempt to rectify these issues will be carried out. I believe in the latter stages of their service with FGW Old Oak Common started to get top side of them?

 

[LowLevel]

I've got MR in my bag to read on the train later (appropriately) so I'll see if they do have a proposal - but no other TOC has yet made them reliable[1], so I am cynical.

[1] Well, I think they were OK on Northern, but running a 125mph unit on a 75mph stopping service is not exactly going to tax it, a bit like running 100mph express steam locomotives at 25mph on preserved railways tends to mean they stay reasonably reliable.

IC trains don't tend to get on well with stopping services. The brakes have a habit of overheating on class 222 when they end up on local services.

 

[yorksrob]

As many have said, there are reliability problems with the 180's, this is well known and i'm reasonably certain that this small issue will not have escaped the attention of those tasked with introduciing the fleet to EMR services, and that work to attempt to rectify these issues will be carried out. I believe in the latter stages of their service with FGW Old Oak Common started to get top side of them?

I think it's more likely the case of the franchise bidders being strong-armed into getting rid of HST's prematurely through bodge and make do, to meet the arbitrary PRM deadline, than there being some master plan to get the proposed fleet working properly.

 

[ChrisC]

Exactly abellio haven’t thought things through.

Everything that’s happening isn’t necessarily abellio’s fault, but reading what may be going to happen on the MML suggests that abellio are not learning from what is currently happening in Scotland on the Highland Main Line.

I’ve just got back from Scotland having had a great time using an 8 Day Spirit of Scotland Rover. Most of what I saw from abellio in Scotland was good, especially the Kyle of Lochalsh, Far North and West Highland Lines. However, the Highland Main Line, especially between Perth and Inverness was chaotic with short formed trains, often no reservations or 1st Class and severe overcrowding. If abellio in Scotland are in the situation where people are boarding trains in Inverness and are standing for over 2 hours to Perth, people at intermediate stations, like Aviemore and Pitlochry, are struggling to board with all their luggage, is this going to also become the norm on the MML. If this can happen between Glasgow/Edinburgh and Inverness will abellio worry if his happens on a far shorter journey from London to Nottingham/Sheffield.

There is a whole thread about this elsewhere and so I don’t want to start a discussion here about Scotland. I just have my fears that the chaos I saw on the HML may about to be repeated on the MML.

 

[edwin_m]

Do they really need 70 mins to turn a set around at London as surely 30 to 40 minutes is plenty of time?

It’s wasteful use of turnaround times that is rather inefficient and it’s good that Abellio are actually tackling this to improve the service.

That's my point exactly. The Nottingham service has around 100min layover time and 200min travelling time per cycle. Taking one set out of the hourly service would give a total of 40min layover, a little tight but probably do-able if the timetable can be structured to split it evenly between the two termini and even better if a few minutes can be squeezed out of the journey time to add to the turnaround. One reason for the current arrangement is because it's the only off-peak service group operated with HSTs so it can't interwork with the other services - a uniform fleet allows interworking to balance out the turnaround times.

 

[InTheEastMids]

That's my point exactly. The Nottingham service has around 100min layover time and 200min travelling time per cycle. Taking one set out of the hourly service would give a total of 40min layover, a little tight but probably do-able if the timetable can be structured to split it evenly between the two termini and even better if a few minutes can be squeezed out of the journey time to add to the turnaround. One reason for the current arrangement is because it's the only off-peak service group operated with HSTs so it can't interwork with the other services - a uniform fleet allows interworking to balance out the turnaround times.

But in the context of the interim fleet post-HST they will have the following train permutations

Cl222: 4, 5, 7, 9, 10 car
Cl180: 5, 10 car
7 different possible formations
This is very different to the long term situation.

This falls to 2 once the new fleet arrives

My scepticism is whether this interim fleet of 31 trains with 4 different subtypes can provide the necessary capacity (reliably), when Abellio have been telling the world they need 33 trains of a single type. Especially since the 180s have such a woeful reputation.

I really hope MR grilled them on this.

 

[Carlisle]

I love the quote from the interim MD regarding there being no DCO or DOO in the new franchise "it's lovely, it's nice not to have to deal with that issue"

DOO debates are now just one of a number of ancient microcosms of the nations current Brexit paralysis,

 

[edwin_m]

But in the context of the interim fleet post-HST they will have the following train permutations

Cl222: 4, 5, 7, 9, 10 car
Cl180: 5, 10 car
7 different possible formations
This is very different to the long term situation.

This falls to 2 once the new fleet arrives

My scepticism is whether this interim fleet of 31 trains with 4 different subtypes can provide the necessary capacity (reliably), when Abellio have been telling the world they need 33 trains of a single type. Especially since the 180s have such a woeful reputation.

I really hope MR grilled them on this.

All the 222 variations have the same timings so interworking them is only a matter of matching the diagrams to demand, with splitting and joining also possible. Timing the Nottingham fast trains for 222s instead of HSTs will save a few minutes on their timings, probably enough to push the turnaround up from 20min to something more comfortable if the alterations I referred to above succeed in reducing the requirement by one set.

The 180s probably have different timings and may have to be kept tightly to specific diagrams, just as the short HSTs are currently.

 

[jtuk]

Unbelievable that they chose to short form at least one of the early Liverpool - Norwich services yesterday morning. When they only have two carriages as opposed to four it's cosy at the best of times, but when Liverpool are playing away in Sheffield... I know they don't have spare stock lying around to strengthen services that would warrant it but this was the silliest thing I've ever seen and left at least 30 on the platform at Stockport

 

[LowLevel]

Unbelievable that they chose to short form at least one of the early Liverpool - Norwich services yesterday morning. When they only have two carriages as opposed to four it's cosy at the best of times, but when Liverpool are playing away in Sheffield... I know they don't have spare stock lying around to strengthen services that would warrant it but this was the silliest thing I've ever seen and left at least 30 on the platform at Stockport

That train is booked to be 2 carriages on a Saturday. As it happens they did try to strengthen it but the second unit failed at Nottingham before departure (causing a late start) so it was run with 2 coaches instead of 4. 158864 in the sin bin as usual.

The 2 trains that come off Liverpool at 0647 and 0742 are also booked to be 2 coaches on Saturdays and were not overcrowded. The second and busier of the two still had a couple of empty seats leaving Stockport.

 

[Killingworth]

Unbelievable that they chose to short form at least one of the early Liverpool - Norwich services yesterday morning. When they only have two carriages as opposed to four it's cosy at the best of times, but when Liverpool are playing away in Sheffield... I know they don't have spare stock lying around to strengthen services that would warrant it but this was the silliest thing I've ever seen and left at least 30 on the platform at Stockport

The Manchester-Sheffield route is served by 3 TOCs. TPE should be running 6 cars but due to slow introduction of new stock are still only operating 3 for most. Northern continue to operate single Pacers when normal Saturday morning demand needs twice that. The knock on effects mean all get overcrowded.

Even on non football Saturdays passengers are regularly left on platforms to await a following packed train. The rolling stock being used may be old but the problem is there isn't enough of it, not so much its age. Although in this case it sounds as though age may be a factor in the failure of the rostered unit!

The rolling stock was mostly ordered over 30 years ago to match demand at that time. To put it in perspective, passenger numbers at my local station on this line have quadrupled in the last 20 years. No wonder we play at sardines so much of the time.

 

[jtuk]

That train is booked to be 2 carriages on a Saturday. As it happens they did try to strengthen it but the second unit failed at Nottingham before departure (causing a late start) so it was run with 2 coaches instead of 4. 158864 in the sin bin as usual.

The 2 trains that come off Liverpool at 0647 and 0742 are also booked to be 2 coaches on Saturdays and were not overcrowded. The second and busier of the two still had a couple of empty seats leaving Stockport.

My bad, I just assumed that they were booked with four carriages throughout the day because anything less would be idiocy even at normal levels of demand, let alone elevated levels as was the case yesterday

 

[Kite159]

My bad, I just assumed that they were booked with four carriages throughout the day because anything less would be idiocy even at normal levels of demand, let alone elevated levels as was the case yesterday

Are they the ones which when working into Liverpool call at most of the stations along the Hope Valley, so limited to being a single unit due to short platforms and no SDO (so local door only, although I would imagine the demand that time of morning would normally be very low)?

 

[Killingworth]

Are they the ones which when working into Liverpool call at most of the stations along the Hope Valley, so limited to being a single unit due to short platforms and no SDO (so local door only, although I would imagine the demand that time of morning would normally be very low)?

Only the first westbound; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C84567/2019/09/30/advanced and last eastbound each day; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C84469/2019/09/30/advanced

 

[Tomnick]

Are they the ones which when working into Liverpool call at most of the stations along the Hope Valley, so limited to being a single unit due to short platforms and no SDO (so local door only, although I would imagine the demand that time of morning would normally be very low)?

The first one out and last one back are normally 2x158 during the week (the former gets quite busy into Manchester too). It fits on most platforms, and local door operation at the stations where they don’t fit isn’t a problem.

 

[Killingworth]

The first one out and last one back are normally 2x158 during the week (the former gets quite busy into Manchester too). It fits on most platforms, and local door operation at the stations where they don’t fit isn’t a problem.

And platforms are supposed to be lengthened to take 4 by December - supposed to be, but it may happen.

 

[Jozhua]

DOO debates are now just one of a number of ancient microcosms of the nations current Brexit paralysis,

Quite possibly the only positive thing to come of the paralysis, letting 180's slip through the net less so!

 

[Haydn1971]

Perhaps not the best thread but I note on the Wikipedia pages, although not well respected for factual information... that the Norwich - Liverpool service is run by both 158s and 222s ? Is this actually the case now ? Or does it just refer to the odd specials that have been run in the past ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps not the best thread but I note on the Wikipedia pages, although not well respected for factual information... that the Norwich - Liverpool service is run by both 158s and 222s ? Is this actually the case now ? Or does it just refer to the odd specials that have been run in the past ?

222s aren't normal fare, they are just used on days of high demand e.g. Aintree Races.

 

[cactustwirly]

222s aren't normal fare, they are just used on days of high demand e.g. Aintree Races.

Correct, the 222s are diagrammed quite intensively for London services, with no 222s available to work Liverpool services anyway.

 

[LowLevel]

222s aren't normal fare, they are just used on days of high demand e.g. Aintree Races.

They've not even done that for a while for various reasons, a 6 car 158 is usually used instead.

One did work the 1243 Manchester to Norwich on Sunday between Sheffield and Nottingham though after the 158 failed en route - a great bit of work from the control and the traincrews to keep the service running.

 

[LowLevel]

December 2020 timetable change (first of the two big ones) consultation launches on Friday.

 

[43074]

December 2020 timetable change (first of the two big ones) consultation launches on Friday.

Now online: https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/december2020

(I have created a dedicated thread here)

 

[Roast Veg]

Consistent northbound departure times from Leicester throughout the day? I find that hard to believe. Pleased to see the removal of all bar Kettering from the southbound services - I assume there's a good operational reason that only the Nottingham's call there?

EDIT: Ah they explained it themselves:

Is it possible to stop one of the Sheffield services at Kettering, rather than both Nottingham services? Unfortunately not. The Sheffield and Nottingham trains have to leave London St Pancras International quite close together and therefore stopping a Sheffield service at Kettering would add significant journey time, as the Nottingham service would have to wait behind it.