East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

[edwin_m]

Consistent northbound departure times from Leicester throughout the day? I find that hard to believe.

Currently most of the evening peak services make extra stops south of Leicester compared with their off-peak equivalents. I think what they're saying is that those extra stops won't be required as the electrics will provide enough capacity.

Conversely they say the electrics will have extra journey time in the peaks, and this will result in some connections at Kettering being longer. I wonder if this is simply a matter of breaking the official connection margin, so if things are running to time and you leg it over the bridge you might still make the equivalent train at peak times.

 

[43096]

Consistent northbound departure times from Leicester throughout the day? I find that hard to believe. Pleased to see the removal of all bar Kettering from the southbound services - I assume there's a good operational reason that only the Nottingham's call there?

EDIT: Ah they explained it themselves:

I assume there are good reasons why they can't swap over the London departures. So in one half-hour slot the Sheffield fast leaves first, then the Nottingham semi-fast, and in the opposite half-hour the Nottingham fast (first stop Market Harborough) goes first, followed by the semi-fast Sheffield (which would become first stop Kettering).

Doing that would put everywhere on the MML within one change of everywhere else, as it is currently planned Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield are two changes away from everywhere Luton Airport to Kettering.

 

[edwin_m]

I assume there are good reasons why they can't swap over the London departures. So in one half-hour slot the Sheffield fast leaves first, then the Nottingham semi-fast, and in the opposite half-hour the Nottingham fast (first stop Market Harborough) goes first, followed by the semi-fast Sheffield (which would become first stop Kettering).

Doing that would put everywhere on the MML within one change of everywhere else, as it is currently planned Derby, Chesterfield and Sheffield are two changes away from everywhere Luton Airport to Kettering.

That would remove the 15min regular interval between London and Leicester. There might also be a problem with signalling headways once they get into the three-aspect area north of Sharnbrook, as neither train would have stopped by then so they would still be 3min apart. The connection times at Kettering might also be too short.

 

[43096]

That would remove the 15min regular interval between London and Leicester.

Sorry, I don't understand the comment - I'm suggesting swapping trains over, not changing departure times from London.

There might also be a problem with signalling headways once they get into the three-aspect area north of Sharnbrook, as neither train would have stopped by then so they would still be 3min apart. The connection times at Kettering might also be too short.

Yeah, those are the sort of reasons that I was considering (without having specifics). It certainly compromises a lot of connections the way it is planned.

 

[tbtc]

That would remove the 15min regular interval between London and Leicester. There might also be a problem with signalling headways once they get into the three-aspect area north of Sharnbrook, as neither train would have stopped by then so they would still be 3min apart. The connection times at Kettering might also be too short.

Agreed.

For me, the importance of:

• A well spaced four trains per hour from London to Leicester
• A well spaced two trains per hour from London to Nottingham
• A well spaced two trains per hour from London to Derby/ Sheffield

...are more important than the kind of "Bedford to Sheffield" markets (or insert any combination of station in the "south Midlands" and station north of Kettering).

If anything, it's regrettable that the service from East Midlands Parkway/ Loughborough to Leicester/ London is going to be close to 15/45 minutes instead of simple half hourly service (but there's no easy way of resolving this).

 

[Jozhua]

If anything, it's regrettable that the service from East Midlands Parkway/ Loughborough to Leicester/ London is going to be close to 15/45 minutes instead of simple half hourly service (but there's no easy way of resolving this).

I'm sure all three users of East Midlands Parkway will be deeply upset by this complicated timing...

 

[edwin_m]

That would remove the 15min regular interval between London and Leicester. There might also be a problem with signalling headways once they get into the three-aspect area north of Sharnbrook, as neither train would have stopped by then so they would still be 3min apart. The connection times at Kettering might also be too short.

Sorry, I don't understand the comment - I'm suggesting swapping trains over, not changing departure times from London.

The EMR timetable proposed off-peak timetable will have departures from St Pancras something like:

• 1000: Kettering and stations to Nottingham
• 1003: Luton AP and stations to Corby
  
• 1015: Leicester and stations to Sheffield
• 1030: Kettering and stations to Nottingham
• 1033: Luton AP and stations to Corby
• 1045: Leicester and stations to Sheffield

The 1003, with a lower top speed and extra stops, will be overtaken by the 1015 somewhere north of Bedford and get to Kettering about 9min before the 1030, thereby providing the connection.

What you propose would have the 1000, 1003, 1030 and 1033 going to Leicester and the 1015 and 1045 to Corby so passengers for Leicester might have to wait 27min rather than just 15min maximum.

 

[edwin_m]

...are more important than the kind of "Bedford to Sheffield" markets (or insert any combination of station in the "south Midlands" and station north of Kettering).

I've responded to the consultation suggesting that the East Midlands Parkway stop in the slower Nottingham train should be kept. A reasonable service to the airport (which will improve when the peoplemover replaces the shuttle bus) considerably improves the range of destinations easily accessible by air from the East Midlands, but as proposed this will require a change at Kettering and air passengers may have luggage and will be concerned about missed connections. It also provides links such as St Albans to Leicester with only one change instead of two. I wouldn't support replacing this with a Bedford call because of the operational difficulties of stopping there (though East West Rail might change that balance in the long term).

 

[43096]

The EMR timetable proposed off-peak timetable will have departures from St Pancras something like:

• 1000: Kettering and stations to Nottingham
• 1003: Luton AP and stations to Corby
  
• 1015: Leicester and stations to Sheffield
• 1030: Kettering and stations to Nottingham
• 1033: Luton AP and stations to Corby
• 1045: Leicester and stations to Sheffield

The 1003, with a lower top speed and extra stops, will be overtaken by the 1015 somewhere north of Bedford and get to Kettering about 9min before the 1030, thereby providing the connection.

What you propose would have the 1000, 1003, 1030 and 1033 going to Leicester and the 1015 and 1045 to Corby so passengers for Leicester might have to wait 27min rather than just 15min maximum.

But that 15min clockface departures for Leicester is at odds with what EMR say in the timetable consultation when there is a question about stopping a Sheffield service at Kettering: "The Sheffield and Nottingham trains have to leave London St Pancras International quite close together and therefore stopping a Sheffield service at Kettering would add significant journey time, as the Nottingham service would have to wait behind it."

I'm reading that to mean that a Nottingham departs directly after a Sheffield. What you are saying cannot be right - a Kettering stop doesn't impact the service behind as it is 15mins away!

The EMR consultation implies the pathings are something like:
xx00: Sheffield fast (Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield)
xx03: Nottingham semi-fast (first stop Kettering)
xx15: Corby
xx30: Sheffield semi-fast (first stop Leicester)
xx33: Nottingham fast (first stop Kettering)
xx45: Corby

I was proposing swapping the xx30 and xx33 over, with a Kettering stop in the Sheffield vice the Nottingham, so the pattern would be:
xx00: Sheffield fast (Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield)
xx03: Nottingham semi-fast (first stop Kettering)
xx15: Corby
xx30: Nottingham fast (first stop Market Harborough)
xx33: Sheffield semi-fast (first stop Kettering)
xx45: Corby

 

[Robertj21a]

I've responded to the consultation suggesting that the East Midlands Parkway stop in the slower Nottingham train should be kept. A reasonable service to the airport (which will improve when the peoplemover replaces the shuttle bus) considerably improves the range of destinations easily accessible by air from the East Midlands, but as proposed this will require a change at Kettering and air passengers may have luggage and will be concerned about missed connections. It also provides links such as St Albans to Leicester with only one change instead of two. I wouldn't support replacing this with a Bedford call because of the operational difficulties of stopping there (though East West Rail might change that balance in the long term).

Peoplemover from EMP to EMA........really ?

 

[JonathanH]

But that 15min clockface departures for Leicester is at odds with what EMR say in the timetable consultation when there is a question about stopping a Sheffield service at Kettering: "The Sheffield and Nottingham trains have to leave London St Pancras International quite close together and therefore stopping a Sheffield service at Kettering would add significant journey time, as the Nottingham service would have to wait behind it."

I'm reading that to mean that a Nottingham departs directly after a Sheffield. What you are saying cannot be right - a Kettering stop doesn't impact the service behind as it is 15mins away!

The EMR consultation implies the pathings are something like:
xx00: Sheffield fast (Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield)
xx03: Nottingham semi-fast (first stop Kettering)
xx15: Corby
xx30: Sheffield semi-fast (first stop Leicester)
xx33: Nottingham fast (first stop Kettering)
xx45: Corby

I was proposing swapping the xx30 and xx33 over, with a Kettering stop in the Sheffield vice the Nottingham, so the pattern would be:
xx00: Sheffield fast (Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield)
xx03: Nottingham semi-fast (first stop Kettering)
xx15: Corby
xx30: Nottingham fast (first stop Market Harborough)
xx33: Sheffield semi-fast (first stop Kettering)
xx45: Corby

Isn't the problem with this that the Sheffield semi-fast ends up only a few minutes ahead of the Sheffield fast by the time it gets to its destination?

At the moment, the semi-fast is 11 minutes slower - for the Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway and Long Eaton stops. Making it depart 3 minutes later, stopping at Kettering and retaining the stops between Leicester and Derby means the gap at Sheffield would be about 10 minutes rather than 19.

 

[43096]

Isn't the problem with this that the Sheffield semi-fast ends up only a few minutes ahead of the Sheffield fast by the time it gets to its destination?

At the moment, the semi-fast is 11 minutes slower - for the Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway and Long Eaton stops. Making it depart 3 minutes later, stopping at Kettering and retaining the stops between Leicester and Derby means the gap at Sheffield would be about 10 minutes rather than 19.

That's why it is a semi-fast...............

The proposal that the Kettering stops are only in the Nottingham services isn't great from a connection point of view. I know nowhere south of Leicester has a stop in the Sheffield service now, but currently connections for Luton Airport, Luton, Bedford and Wellingborough are available at Leicester, which they won't be going forward - Kettering is the interchange. The Sheffield service is in danger of being like the Virgin West Coast operation - it is assumed everyone is going to London. There is much that is good about the proposed service, this lack of connections is the biggest problem.

 

[JonathanH]

That's why it is a semi-fast...............

The proposal that the Kettering stops are only in the Nottingham services isn't great from a connection point of view. I know nowhere south of Leicester has a stop in the Sheffield service now, but currently connections for Luton Airport, Luton, Bedford and Wellingborough are available at Leicester, which they won't be going forward - Kettering is the interchange. The Sheffield service is in danger of being like the Virgin West Coast operation - it is assumed everyone is going to London. There is much that is good about the proposed service, this lack of connections is the biggest problem.

Clearly EMT made a decision to set up a credible 2tph Sheffield to London service rather than 1tph that people use and another that is basically empty at the northern end because it runs so close to the fast. This is just an extension of that.

Putting a Kettering stop in the Sheffield "fast" would arguably work better (with a Nottingham train running ahead and stopping a Market Harborough) but that would be a slow down of the current operation.

 

[tbtc]

I'm sure all three users of East Midlands Parkway will be deeply upset by this complicated timing...

I'm hopeful that there may be a 33% increase in passengers under the new franchise (though I don't know his name yet)

But that 15min clockface departures for Leicester is at odds with what EMR say in the timetable consultation when there is a question about stopping a Sheffield service at Kettering: "The Sheffield and Nottingham trains have to leave London St Pancras International quite close together and therefore stopping a Sheffield service at Kettering would add significant journey time, as the Nottingham service would have to wait behind it."

I'm reading that to mean that a Nottingham departs directly after a Sheffield. What you are saying cannot be right - a Kettering stop doesn't impact the service behind as it is 15mins away!

The EMR consultation implies the pathings are something like:
xx00: Sheffield fast (Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield)
xx03: Nottingham semi-fast (first stop Kettering)
xx15: Corby
xx30: Sheffield semi-fast (first stop Leicester)
xx33: Nottingham fast (first stop Kettering)
xx45: Corby

I was proposing swapping the xx30 and xx33 over, with a Kettering stop in the Sheffield vice the Nottingham, so the pattern would be:
xx00: Sheffield fast (Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield)
xx03: Nottingham semi-fast (first stop Kettering)
xx15: Corby
xx30: Nottingham fast (first stop Market Harborough)
xx33: Sheffield semi-fast (first stop Kettering)
xx45: Corby

That'd be a poor timetable. As well as slowing down the Sheffield service (and removing the simplicity of a half hourly frequency) it'd mean a pretty poor split for Leicester passengers.

It doesn't have to be *ever* fifteen minutes, but if you are waiting twenty seven minutes for a service that runs four times an hour then something is wrong.

Isn't the problem with this that the Sheffield semi-fast ends up only a few minutes ahead of the Sheffield fast by the time it gets to its destination?

At the moment, the semi-fast is 11 minutes slower - for the Loughborough, East Midlands Parkway and Long Eaton stops. Making it depart 3 minutes later, stopping at Kettering and retaining the stops between Leicester and Derby means the gap at Sheffield would be about 10 minutes rather than 19.

Agreed - going back to the days of just one proper fast Sheffield service would be negative,

The paths weren't great when the semifast Derby service was extended through to Sheffield a few years ago, running within eight minutes of the fast service, having to skip Chesterfield since there wasn't space in the timetable, but it's gradually improved and improved until he point where it's half hourly at one end and the split at the Sheffield end isn't too bad, considering the additional stops.

That's why it is a semi-fast...............

The proposal that the Kettering stops are only in the Nottingham services isn't great from a connection point of view. I know nowhere south of Leicester has a stop in the Sheffield service now, but currently connections for Luton Airport, Luton, Bedford and Wellingborough are available at Leicester, which they won't be going forward - Kettering is the interchange. The Sheffield service is in danger of being like the Virgin West Coast operation - it is assumed everyone is going to London. There is much that is good about the proposed service, this lack of connections is the biggest problem.

That's the nature of demand though.

How many of the LNER services from Edinburgh/ Leeds stop south of Peterborough each hour?

It's already slower from Sheffield to London than it is from York - we don't need more stops inserted.

Clearly EMT made a decision to set up a credible 2tph Sheffield to London service rather than 1tph that people use and another that is basically empty at the northern end because it runs so close to the fast. This is just an extension of that.

Putting a Kettering stop in the Sheffield "fast" would arguably work better (with a Nottingham train running ahead and stopping a Market Harborough) but that would be a slow down of the current operation.

Agreed - the people who would benefit from a more complicated timetable (based around the demand from Kettering to Sheffield) are few and the numbers who want a faster frequent simple service from Sheffield/ Derby to London are many.

 

[JonathanH]

Agreed - the people who would benefit from a more complicated timetable (based around the demand from Kettering to Sheffield) are few and the numbers who want a faster frequent simple service from Sheffield/ Derby to London are many.

To be fair to '43096', the post was citing demand from Sheffield to all stations south of Leicester, not just Kettering.

 

[tbtc]

To be fair to '43096', the post was citing demand from Sheffield to all stations south of Leicester, not just Kettering.

That's a fair point - I should have gone into more detail in listing stations - but even if you did muck up the timetable to run the two Sheffield services within ten minutes of each other, you'd still only be stopping at one place south of Leicester - meaning passengers for Bedford/ Luton/ Luton Airport would still not have direct journeys - the reality of the MML is that demand (for Sheffield/ Derby/ Nottingham passengers) for places between Leicester and London is split between lots of places and you can't satisfy them all.

The GWML is lucky in that Reading is a large place, a destination in its own right, a busy junction, connecting coaches to Heathrow too - so there's one obvious place to stop - but the MML demand is spread between a few smaller places with no obvious *one* to serve.

You could make an argument for Luton Airport (which would be of more use to people round here), you could make an argument for Bedford (which would require complicated manoeuvres to serve), you could make an argument for Luton (twice as big as Bedford)... but heavy rail works best on large simple markets - whereas demand in Bedfordshire (towards the north) is spread over a number of places. And if we are talking about those stations then there's probably some demand at St Albans - where do you draw the line?

At least this way there's a simple balanced half hourly service from Kettering/ Market Harborough to Leicester - there should be simple half hourly connections at Kettering for Airport/ Luton/ Bedford passengers - it won't satisfy everyone but I don't think that you can solve everyone.

EMR's timetable and planning seems based around simple half hourly services, one type of long distance stock (once the new trains arrive - and effectively one type of stock for short distance services), and having the longer distance services run non stop south of Leicester is part of this.

 

[43074]

The EMR consultation implies the pathings are something like:
xx00: Sheffield fast (Leicester, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield)
xx03: Nottingham semi-fast (first stop Kettering)
xx15: Corby
xx30: Sheffield semi-fast (first stop Leicester)
xx33: Nottingham fast (first stop Kettering)
xx45: Corby

Almost exactly that, just add two minutes to the departures from St Pancras and I would expect that to be the timetable...

Agreed - the people who would benefit from a more complicated timetable (based around the demand from Kettering to Sheffield) are few and the numbers who want a faster frequent simple service from Sheffield/ Derby to London are many.

Based on the numbers of passengers who alight from the fast Sheffield services and wait at Leicester for the stopper to London ten minutes later, there's certainly a market there. I'm almost surprised they don't stop at Kettering anyway as lots of EMR management live in that area and commute to Derby [/cynic]

That'd be a poor timetable. As well as slowing down the Sheffield service (and removing the simplicity of a half hourly frequency) it'd mean a pretty poor split for Leicester passengers.

It doesn't have to be *ever* fifteen minutes, but if you are waiting twenty seven minutes for a service that runs four times an hour then something is wrong

At the moment the 'fast' Sheffield service gets a pretty poor path in the London direction anyway as it dwells at Derby for five minutes then has four minutes pathing between Harpenden and London. You could add at least one if not two stops to it without having a detrimental impact on journey times if it ran in a better path South of Bedford and didn't dwell at Derby as long.

 

[gazzaa2]

That feeling when a 2 car turns up rather than a 4 when a 4 is pretty full anyway. Horrendous.

A lot of short forms yesterday

 

[InTheEastMids]

Just in case people were not aware, there is already specific thread for the timetable consultation elsewhere

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-december-2020-timetable-consultation.195505/

 

[70014IronDuke]

That's a fair point - I should have gone into more detail in listing stations - but even if you did muck up the timetable to run the two Sheffield services within ten minutes of each other, you'd still only be stopping at one place south of Leicester - meaning passengers for Bedford/ Luton/ Luton Airport would still not have direct journeys - the reality of the MML is that demand (for Sheffield/ Derby/ Nottingham passengers) for places between Leicester and London is split between lots of places and you can't satisfy them all.

The GWML is lucky in that Reading is a large place, a destination in its own right, a busy junction, connecting coaches to Heathrow too - so there's one obvious place to stop - but the MML demand is spread between a few smaller places with no obvious *one* to serve.
....
You could make an argument for Luton Airport (which would be of more use to people round here), you could make an argument for Bedford (which would require complicated manoeuvres to serve), you could make an argument for Luton (twice as big as Bedford)... but heavy rail works best on large simple markets - whereas demand in Bedfordshire (towards the north) is spread over a number of places. And if we are talking about those stations then there's probably some demand at St Albans - where do you draw the line?.

Kindly forgive me for asking what is perhaps the bleedin' obvious, but are we saying here that for the bulk (or all?) of the day, anyone from Luton Airport Parkway/Luton/Bedford/Wellingboro who wants to go to Derby, Chesterfield or Sheffield will have to change twice, ie Kettering and Leicester?

(And, of course, anyone from eg Harpenden, Flitwick, and the Thameslink like will have to change three times?)

And this is in order to enable the fastest timings for Sheffield express services?

If so, could there be any better way to ensure potential passengers from such locations (and v v of course) get into their cars, taxis and coaches, most especially from Luton Airport. Who is going to faff around using the people carrier, train to Kettering, train to Leicester and then yet another train to Derby etc?

What an "incentive" to let the train take the strain, especially for eg Wellingboro passengers, who'll sit on their gleaming new Corby electric for all of six-seven minutes before having to traipse over to Platform 4 for the connection northwards.

And the UK is supposed to going Green - ha ha!

I'd say for most normals wanting these options that this is worse than the 1970 2TPH 90 mph Cl 45-hauled service.

 

[yorkie]

The franchise was handed over to Abellio over three months ago now, so this thread has run its course as per the original title.

I have split some posts, regarding the suggestion to portion work Corby services, into a new thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...rtion-worked-to-maximise-mml-capacity.195615/

To continue discussion on any aspect of EMR, please use an existing thread if there is one, or create a new one if there isn't.

Also just a gentle reminder that if anyone wishes to make suggestions, we absolutely do welcome these, but please post them in the correct forum section (ie. Speculative Ideas).

Many thanks