East Midlands franchise won by Abellio

[cactustwirly]

Don't EMT have buffet counters too?

They don't use them, they're normally shut, with a bog standard trolley instead!

 

[theshillito]

Seating capacity. They are getting rid of 153s so that means the only available cascaded / refurbished stock is more than 1 coach.

Thanks. Was hoping for express services from Crewe to Derby at least the extensions to Nottingham will be useful. Not really been there much.

 

[Table 52]

And a right nuisance for people travelling north from Bedford and other Thameslink stations. That really needs sorting out, either by stopping everything at Kettering or everything at Bedford.

Actually, if it ends up half hourly to Nottingham (fast to Kettering) and half hourly to Corby (stopping) then as long as the connection at Kettering is good, it'll be better for people from Bedford travelling north, as there's effectively 2tph with a change at Kettering, compared to 1tph direct currently (and a Corby service that doesn't connect to anything)

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Thanks. Was hoping for express services from Crewe to Derby at least the extensions to Nottingham will be useful. Not really been there much.

Well there is this Transport for the North Liverpool - Crewe - Stoke - Derby - Leicester service that's entirely possible to create the extra capacity. One assumes it will be fast from Crewe to Stoke, then Uttoxeter, Derby, Long Eaton (?), East Midlands Parkway, Loughborough and Leicester.

I still think it's a daft service but there we go...

 

[westcoaster]

Agreed. Bedford will soon be a huge nucleus of interchange and journey opportunities and one must assume it will need to be re-modelled. Maybe if they can be bothered to have a dedicated two platforms for 'Intercity' we will finally have a sensible situation involving more Bedford calls.

Believe under the electrification scheme platform 4 and the up fast line will both become bi-directional. I guess the plan is to allow a southbound train to call in P4, while allowing a northbound to pass on the up fast.

 

[MikeWM]

You don't have to go via London. Anglia > Peterborough > Leeds > Manchester is just as quick, if not quicker. My nearly default route now.

I've done that in the past - and as I've probably previously mentioned, ended up on the same service I did Ely->Peterborough for the Manchester->Liverpool leg

I'm really not a typical passenger though, which I think is all too easy to forget on this sort of forum. My mother for example would be very put off at the idea of having to make 3 or 4 changes (or even 1, in a strange place she doesn't know) when previously she could go direct.

You can't count on your fingers the cross-Nottingham passengers when I use the EMT.

In my experience there are always quite a few more than I could count on my fingers...

I really don't think breaking up such a long-established service, for the sake of operational convenience, is a good look or a good idea.

 

[theshillito]

Well there is this Transport for the North Liverpool - Crewe - Stoke - Derby - Leicester service that's entirely possible to create the extra capacity. One assumes it will be fast from Crewe to Stoke, then Uttoxeter, Derby, Long Eaton (?), East Midlands Parkway, Loughborough and Leicester.

I still think it's a daft service but there we go...

First I'm hearing of this service! I travel to Leicester quite a lot, and Nuneaton isn't a fun place to wait around for a delayed CrossCountry train, so a direct service will be appreciated regardless.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Believe under the electrification scheme platform 4 and the up fast line will both become bi-directional. I guess the plan is to allow a southbound train to call in P4, while allowing a northbound to pass on the up fast.

Sounds, to be honest, daft. That means they'll both have to slow down to cross over and conflict with each other. Much better to build an 'Intercity island' and then have an additional 3 platforms for Thameslink as well as 2 for EWRL at the Southern end.

 

[Megafuss]

Depends on what they order! If it's products of Hitachi then quite possibly they'll end up making use of Doncaster. Bombardier products may well being maintained at Crofton near Wakefield. Alternatively it's also quite common to throw up a new depot entierly for a decent sized new fleet and this is going to be quite a large one so I wouldn't rule out a new depot either. Neville Hill is bursting at the seams as well so getting rid of some rolling stock from there would certainly be useful to free up space for Northern.

However you're right it certainly can't be ruled out that Neville Hill will still have a role to play but I certainly wouldn't put money on it.



Yes the 222s and HSTs both have buffets (and full kitchens) but I believe that often it's just the trolley parked in the buffet.



Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong place but RTT suggests that only the first train of the day (0633) is EM from Leeds to Nottingham after that it's all Northern? I'm still not convinced that one train early in the morning is enough to keep EMR dealing with the logistical issues of starting services back at Leeds...

Embarrassingly misread one of the notes on the Northern timetable pdf. I stand corrected EMT run two of the first three

 

[Along the bay]

'New 125mph trains' for the mainline dictates Bi-mode I imagine. I can't see DfT signing off on high-speed express DMUs for a route that's electrified for that much of its length. The question is whether it's an adaptation of the IEP, a 125mph Bi-mode version of the 745 or something else entirely. Given Abellio's approach to Anglia I think the former is probably unlikely.
'Refurbished modern 12-car express trains' - so not 125mph and not new build, suggests 379, 360/1 or 350/2 I imagine. Unless heaven forbid they transfer the 321 Renatus fleet instead! December 2020 does tie in with the (original) proposed withdrawal date of the Anglia fleet.

No mention of change of stock for what's left of Norwich - Liverpool, so I imagine the 158s are staying put, which makes sense.
The smaller routes all list 'refurbished modern trains' - make of that what you will but I suspect inclusion of the term modern excludes 153s and 156s. What's left for them to use, 175s? ex-LNWR 170s?

It would be nice to see the 175s find a new home , would they work well in pairs on the skegness route in the summer ?

 

[Along the bay]

Won't Nottingham to Crewe almost certainly be a stopper anyway? Would have thought there was more chance of it being extended at the Crewe end to Man Airport

They tried that before and barely anyone used it as far as I know.

 

[LowLevel]

It would be nice to see the 175s find a new home , would they work well in pairs on the skegness route in the summer ?

The lack of corridor connection would be a pain but it's possible.

Ideally anything going to Skegness wants to have a dedicated luggage area in addition. The class 156s currently used come into their own in summer with their huge capacity for shifting luggage. Compare to the class 158s which are awful.

 

[A0wen]

And a right nuisance for people travelling north from Bedford and other Thameslink stations. That really needs sorting out, either by stopping everything at Kettering or everything at Bedford.

Well, not really. The flows from Bedford & TL stations northwards are pretty small. Most of the traffic is towards London.

There's no point in stopping everything at Kettering as it will kill the journey times from Leicester and Sheffield - which they've been trying to improve. And you can't have one fast and one semi to both Nottingham and Sheffield as it would screw up the clockface timetable (there's a hit of about 15 mins between London & Leicester of fast vs semi fast).

 

[jfowkes]

Well, not really. The flows from Bedford & TL stations northwards are pretty small. Most of the traffic is towards London.

Yeah, my regular MML journey is Beeston to Bedford (and back) and it's great that right now it's 1h10-ish direct. But I recognise that there's probably not enough demand to justify keeping that service level if losing it benefits more people.

I hope it's only one change though, I read somewhere a while ago that it might involve changes at both Leicester and Kettering, and frankly that will push me back into my car.

 

[ainsworth74]

Embarrassingly misread one of the notes on the Northern timetable pdf. I stand corrected EMT run two of the first three

Oh I see what's going on. I was looking at Monday to Friday you're looking at Saturday Monday to Friday there's only one EM service from Leeds to Nottingham but on Saturday there is, indeed, a second a bit later in the morning. In any event I'm still not convinced that the logistical hurdles (particularly if the stock isn't based at Neville Hill anymore) is worth it to provide services that realistically should be coming from the Northern franchise.

 

[MichaelAMW]

A split in the Norwich - Liverpool service is a real backwards step.

Although a lot on here try and claim everyone just goes via London whenever it's discussed as a semi regular user of the service I see the opposite. Really disappointing.

The "go via London" argument is nonsense as it only really applies to Liverpool to Norwich throughout. Liverpool South Parkway to Norwich or Liverpool to Thetford or Warrington to Norwich or... etc are not so easy or quicker. In truth, I imagine it's more obvious flows like Sheffield to Peterborough and Norwich, or Manchester to Peterborough or Ely (for Cambridge) that will be missed. As others have said, journeys via the ECML are sometimes faster but not by a lot, and it takes away the ease of a through train.

 

[Andyh82]

Two 6 car 185 services between Sheffield and Manchester will be a decent consistent service with an increase in capacity. Assuming that happens of course. Also means they can be marketed together and also stops the situation of EMT running all the way out to Liverpool with the associated ECS moves.

Annoying again that yet another regional TOC is ending up with a much improved regional fleet, whereas Northern are lumbered with class 150s until the end of time.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Two 6 car 185 services between Sheffield and Manchester will be a decent consistent service with an increase in capacity. Assuming that happens of course. Also means they can be marketed together and also stops the situation of EMT running all the way out to Liverpool with the associated ECS moves.

Annoying again that yet another regional TOC is ending up with a much improved regional fleet, whereas Northern are lumbered with class 150s until the end of time.

The problem is that Northern needs such a capacity uplift (unlike the other regional TOCs) that it'll take a while for new kit to filter through. A seat in a 150 is better than no seat.

 

[MikeWM]

The "go via London" argument is nonsense as it only really applies to Liverpool to Norwich throughout.

Indeed so. And in any event for anything from East Anglia to the North West the 'via London' option is rather less attractive than a few years ago, now VTWC have almost doubled in price all the lower tiers of advances to Liverpool and Manchester. Eg. the cheapest possible Cambridge->Liverpool return via London on VTWC advances is now only a few pounds cheaper than an open off-peak Not London return - and that assumes you can find the lowest tiers, at times you want to travel, which you probably won't.

 

[krus_aragon]

No mention of change of stock for what's left of Norwich - Liverpool, so I imagine the 158s are staying put, which makes sense.
The smaller routes all list 'refurbished modern trains' - make of that what you will but I suspect inclusion of the term modern excludes 153s and 156s. What's left for them to use, 175s? ex-LNWR 170s?

It would be nice to see the 175s find a new home , would they work well in pairs on the skegness route in the summer ?

The lack of corridor connection would be a pain but it's possible.

Ideally anything going to Skegness wants to have a dedicated luggage area in addition. The class 156s currently used come into their own in summer with their huge capacity for shifting luggage. Compare to the class 158s which are awful.

The 175s are a class of 27, 11 two-car and 16-three car (a total of 70 carriages).
Wikipedia tells me that EMT's current roster includes 21 153s and 15 156s (a total of 51 carriages).

That'd be a net increase in carriages, but are the current sprinters operated in multiple to any significant extent? (27 trains can't be in 36 places at once!)

On the plus side, I find the 175s cope with Holyhead boat train luggage fairly well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the plus side, I find the 175s cope with Holyhead boat train luggage fairly well.

This is slightly surprising given that you can barely get a handbag on the overheads.

 

[krus_aragon]

This is slightly surprising given that you can barely get a handbag on the overheads.

I'm thinking mainly of the large suitcases that you wouldn't even try to lift to the overheads. The bike storage at the inner end of coach C will often house one bicycle and half a dozen jumbo suitcases, and the unused areas at the inner end of coach A, around the disabled areas, will take a fair number of bags. If you've got a three car set, with even more luggage racks in coach B, then you're generally fine.

 

[cle]

Interesting on the Derby to Stoke line. I always thought it was underused as a potential cross country route. Not sure if trains will extend further (e.g. could the Norwich run up to Crewe, at least hitting the WCML?) - but there are definite options.
In a similar vein, I know it doesn't remove today's slower ECML running, but the Liverpool reaching Grantham or better, Peterborough would be useful for connections. Maybe Newark and Lincoln!

When will the third fast on the Hope Valley be launched? Do the Dore works need to be done for that? I understood that might skip the Sheffield reverse, but doubtful now as Nottingham wouldn't need 2tph to Stockport and Manchester.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I'd like to wish any staff in the operations department in East Midlands Trains the very best of luck.

However loud you shout, Abellio and their teams full of bid managers only understand the theory of everything and the practice of nothing as has been seen with the ScotRail and Greater Anglia franchises where there has been a lot of PR and style to hide the lack of substance and practicalities of the bid.

Abellio over the past few years have become well known for promising and going for big headline statements to look good based on marketing people and bid managers advice, but much harder to deliver in practice. The jury is very much out on their franchises at the moment in relation to this and companies should deliver their existing franchises properly before getting their hands on more.

Personally I'm disappointed Abellio has got yet another contract when serious questions are still to be asked of the current franchises and the deliverability of said bids. But the DFT are numpties and they probably couldn't care less about anything but the headlines anyway, since their name will go against that and they'll blame Abellio when it all goes wrong.

Also splitting Norwich to Liverpool is idiotic, but this is the DFT we're talking about so I'm not surprised they do something that is worse for the passengers, it probably looked good on paper to some person who never uses trains but ticked a few boxes for someone somewhere along the line.

 

[yorksrob]

Having looked at the website, the bad news appears to be that they're planning on replacing some HST's with inferior second hand diesel trains from May 2020, long before the bi-modes come on line.

Hopefully this will only be a very few diagrams.

 

[Grumpy]

Well, not really. The flows from Bedford & TL stations northwards are pretty small. Most of the traffic is towards London.

Always amuses me to read comments like this. There's allegedly small demand into Bedford from the North (including the major cities in the East Midlands and South Yorkshire) but raise the subject of East-West Rail and people go on about the massive potential demand from the relatively small centres to the East and West justifying huge investment.

 

[eusd]

Having looked at the website, the bad news appears to be that they're planning on replacing some HST's with inferior second hand diesel trains from May 2020, long before the bi-modes come on line.

Hopefully this will only be a very few diagrams.

Yes I noticed this and wondered what units are these going to be? I can't think of any suitable trains that will be available for May 2020?

 

[chubs]

I'd like to wish any staff in the operations department in East Midlands Trains the very best of luck.

However loud you shout, Abellio and their teams full of bid managers only understand the theory of everything and the practice of nothing as has been seen with the ScotRail and Greater Anglia franchises where there has been a lot of PR and style to hide the lack of substance and practicalities of the bid.

Abellio over the past few years have become well known for promising and going for big headline statements to look good based on marketing people and bid managers advice, but much harder to deliver in practice. The jury is very much out on their franchises at the moment in relation to this and companies should deliver their existing franchises properly before getting their hands on more.

Personally I'm disappointed Abellio has got yet another contract when serious questions are still to be asked of the current franchises and the deliverability of said bids. But the DFT are numpties and they probably couldn't care less about anything but the headlines anyway, since their name will go against that and they'll blame Abellio when it all goes wrong.

Also splitting Norwich to Liverpool is idiotic, but this is the DFT we're talking about so I'm not surprised they do something that is worse for the passengers, it probably looked good on paper to some person who never uses trains but ticked a few boxes for someone somewhere along the line.

Dont you have an opinion about the seats?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Dont you have an opinion about the seats?

Abellio don't like answering questions about seats, so I have no choice but to wait until I sit them and see if the leg-room is enough for tall people or just for midgets

 

[NoMorePacers]

Abellio don't like answering questions about seats, so I have no choice but to wait until I sit them and see if the leg-room is enough for tall people or just for midgets

Probably just for midgets. Are you tall by any chance?