East Midlands Railway short formed services

[yorksrob]

And it's a shame they just can't double up the stock (so the hourly trains to Nottingham/Sheffield are 7 or 9/10 coaches) due to the need of having another member of staff in the other unit.

Whatever issue there is, is always the passenger who has to suck up the problems.

 

[Skymonster]

And it's a shame they just can't double up the stock (so the hourly trains to Nottingham/Sheffield are 7 or 9/10 coaches) due to the need of having another member of staff in the other unit.

You’d like to think that if they are operating hourly rather than every half hour, there’d be spare staff from the other (non-op) services available to double up the units on the remaining services. However,the likely issue is the strike reducing staff availability - sadly EMR have two industrial disputes running at present and don’t seem to be prepared at present to get to a resolution - which in turn penalises customers more than the business.

 

[LowLevel]

No striking this weekend but the same timetable is still operating, presumably too late to change it.

The Regional woes all weekend have been down to a shortage of depot drivers and shunters at Nottingham meaning Eastcroft has been closed all day for the last 2 days and they've not been able to get anything on or off, they've also had to run trips to Derby for fuel at Etches Park, apparently.

 

[Killingworth]

You’d like to think that if they are operating hourly rather than every half hour, there’d be spare staff from the other (non-op) services available to double up the units on the remaining services. However,the likely issue is the strike reducing staff availability - sadly EMR have two industrial disputes running at present and don’t seem to be prepared at present to get to a resolution - which in turn penalises customers more than the business.

Strikes may be creeping towards some sort of progress, but no white smoke being reported so far. See; https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/rail-strike

Nothing positive visible from RMT.

 

[TheBigD]

The 17:35, 18:35 and 19:35 services from St Pancras to Nottingham have all been reported as being full and standing from St Panvras tonight.

I dont know if any of these services are short formed but it does indicate that EMR are struggling to meet demand and the service is pretty poor.

Sadly the prediction that the new electric trains would free up seats for longer distance passengers, thus allowing the HSTs to go appears to have been made in error.

A real shame. I used to visit London a few times each month by train but wouldn't touch them right now.

And it's a shame they just can't double up the stock (so the hourly trains to Nottingham/Sheffield are 7 or 9/10 coaches) due to the need of having another member of staff in the other unit.

Tonight's 1735, 1835 and 1935 departures from St Pancras to Nottingham are all shown as being worked by 7 car 222. The 1800/1900 Sheffields were both 2 x 5 car 222. Looks like EMR have doubled some services up.

 

[STINT47]

Tonight's 1735, 1835 and 1935 departures from St Pancras to Nottingham are all shown as being worked by 7 car 222. The 1800/1900 Sheffields were both 2 x 5 car 222. Looks like EMR have doubled some services up.

I wonder if they were only full and standing in standard class? I've always felt that on the 7 cars one coach should be changed from first to standard to better match demand.

Of course the reduced amount of good value advance first tickets compared to a few years ago doesn't help fill first class but that's another topic

 

[Jozhua]

The thing I feel really frustrated by on UK railways right now is the fact that despite passenger numbers being at their highest level ever in 2018/19 (appearing to recover pretty quickly from Covid), investment in the industry is the poorest it has ever been from New Labour's no growth contracts, to austerity, and now the indecision of the post-Cameron governments alongside pretty much losing control of the Treasury, which persistently has its sights set on rail spending - (This isn't to say money couldn't be spend more efficiently on the railways, but the way they are going about doing it is entirely backwards.)

When people choose rail, they find the trains are full and the prices ever increasing - at a time we are being (rightly) told to ditch cars/planes to take the train!

I also worry that incoming rail cuts will hit the areas that have bounced back the best (e.g. weekends/off peak, especially outside of London). So basically expect the regional Sunday service which is already back to 120% capacity to be cut, but the SouthEastern commuter services to remain in place.

All of this will likely exacerbate the capacity issues going on with the 22X and 170 fleet. XC's trains have been overcrowded since I started travelling on them as a kid (~10yrs) and they are still overcrowded today, with little plan to resolve this besides the HS2 eastern leg, which will inevitably be cut - the bit that serves an area really struggling as a whole with lack of rail capacity...

I accept that the London-Norwich route is busy and needs these long trains, but so is the MML line and the places served much larger and more important than most places on the Anglia main line, but MML passengers are crammed into inadequate 4 and 5 car trains and look like being so for the foreseeable. It is the same parent company that runs both and I find it difficult to comprehend how they could have bid for both franchises but with such a disproportionate capacity between the two routes and allowed to get away with it.

Blame the DfT and Treasury for that.

Ditto but worse

Liverpool to Manchester to Sheffield to Nottingham to Peterborough to Ely to Norwich

A service linking seven key cities of England is treated with disdain

Such a miserable service.

Liverpool to Norwich would ideally be six cars Liverpool to Nottingham and four cars onwards to Norwich. I suspect that there is suppressed demand on this route. I would personally use it more if I knew I would stand a high chance of getting a seat.

Oh yes, I used to avoid travelling because it was so stressful. Things improved with the TPE 185 doublings when I went back to visit family in Derbyshire from Manchester, but since moving to Nottingham I'm back to relying on the overcrowded EMR service.

There's a lot of suppressed demand on the route as well as a lot of traffic that travels alternative routes, even so far as to use it Norwich to Peterborough then travel via Leeds. A fine example is the Crewe line, it now runs through to Nottingham and has two carriage and throughout the day it loads almost to capacity. Go back a few years, it was a single 153 loading about 30-40 throughout the main part of the day. Its more than double that now and we're "post covid".

I don't think I went via Sheffield at all last trip to Manchester. Went Notts-Crewe and on to XC, then there was a mixture of engineering works and Sunday timetables that made it more efficient to go via Stafford/Tamworth. Was interesting, but a bit tiring!

 

[Bikeman78]

For correctness I'd note that EMR have very little choice in the matter - it was the Government that chose the deadline and that had the power to issue or not issue the necessary dispensations and exemptions.

I wonder if the decision would have been the same without Covid. Likewise on the Cardiff Valleys. I'm still curious as to how Greater Anglia got away with keeping so many 321s.

 

[londonmidland]

Is there still an issue with the depot shunter(s) at Nottingham? Several short forms on the Liverpool-Nottingham services today.

 

[gazzaa2]

I accept that the London-Norwich route is busy and needs these long trains, but so is the MML line and the places served much larger and more important than most places on the Anglia main line, but MML passengers are crammed into inadequate 4 and 5 car trains and look like being so for the foreseeable. It is the same parent company that runs both and I find it difficult to comprehend how they could have bid for both franchises but with such a disproportionate capacity between the two routes and allowed to get away with it.

When i've gone Liverpool-Norwich i've gone via London which is insane when Norwich is north of Birmingham and Liverpool-Norwich is a straight train. Yet it can get me there quicker (depending on the change time), despite a change in London and needing to take the tube. It's also a more comfortable journey with an 11 car Pendolino to London and a long London-Norwich train, compared to potentially a 2-car Liverpool-Norwich train, or just a busy 4 car service going through a lot of busy places.

That sums up rail in this country that a lot of people have to go through London when they don't need to be in London, just to get from a to be b quicker/easier.

 

[dk1]

When i've gone Liverpool-Norwich i've gone via London which is insane when Norwich is north of Birmingham and Liverpool-Norwich is a straight train. Yet it can get me there quicker (depending on the change time), despite a change in London and needing to take the tube. It's also a more comfortable journey with an 11 car Pendolino to London and a long London-Norwich train, compared to potentially a 2-car London-Norwich train, or just a busy 4 car service going through a lot of busy places.

That sums up rail in this country that a lot of people have to go through London when they don't need to be in London, just to get from a to be b quicker/easier.

The trouble is Liverpool-Norwich was never expected to be a fast service even from the outset in the 1980s. It’s a collection of joined together services serving many different markets. It just so happens you can go from one end to the other for convenience a factor which many enjoy. It has always needed a capacity boost to make it more comfortable & to allow more advance fares to be offered. That has simply never been possible due to the severe crowding that is synonymous with certain parts of the route.

 

[paddy1]

When i've gone Liverpool-Norwich i've gone via London which is insane when Norwich is north of Birmingham and Liverpool-Norwich is a straight train. Yet it can get me there quicker (depending on the change time), despite a change in London and needing to take the tube. It's also a more comfortable journey with an 11 car Pendolino to London and a long London-Norwich train, compared to potentially a 2-car Liverpool-Norwich train, or just a busy 4 car service going through a lot of busy places.

That sums up rail in this country that a lot of people have to go through London when they don't need to be in London, just to get from a to be b quicker/easier.

I do exactly the same when travelling from A to B. Make a longer journey than I need to so as to avoid TOC's running short long distance trains, sometimes getting there even quicker (and cheaper, using split tickets etc) than going direct, but always more comfortably.

 

[gazzaa2]

Loads turned away at stations this morning on the Nottingham-Liverpool 2-car service, passengers standing in the toilet it's that crowded. Just as well neither of the Manchester clubs are playing at home

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCYElWtXEActXvm?format=jpg&name=medium

 

[MCR247]

EMR really do seem to be taking the biscuit atm. Sunday services have always been busy on the MML and turning out 5 car 222s for Sheffield to London and then setting intermediate stations PIS and announcements to say “Please note this train is reported as being very busy” is just poor. What are passengers supposed to do wait 45 mins (stations also served by Nottingham runs) or an hour for the next one which is likely to be the same?

 

[ChrisC]

EMR really do seem to be taking the biscuit atm. Sunday services have always been busy on the MML and turning out 5 car 222s for Sheffield to London and then setting intermediate stations PIS and announcements to say “Please note this train is reported as being very busy” is just poor. What are passengers supposed to do wait 45 mins (stations also served by Nottingham runs) or an hour for the next one which is likely to be the same?

EMR continue to get away with it week after week. Both the Sheffield and Nottingham services are currently only running hourly on Sundays which is a 50% reduction over the level of service operated on the other 6 days of the week. Therefore there ought to be enough stock to double up every train on Sundays.

It’s the same with the ridiculous state of affairs between Nottingham and Liverpool every single Saturday morning when a 2 car train turns up on one of the busiest mid morning trains and leaves passengers behind at several stations every week. For large parts of the day this route is currently only being run every 2 hours so there ought to be enough stock for the remaining trains to all be 4 car or even 6 car between Nottingham and Liverpool. A one off problem on a Saturday morning can perhaps be excused but you only have to read this forum to see that it’s every week. Then there is the overcrowding on the Robin Hood Line every Saturday which has also seen a 50% reduction in the timetable and doesn’t look like it will get any better before next May at the earliest.

 

[MCR247]

EMR continue to get away with it week after week. Both the Sheffield and Nottingham services are currently only running hourly on Sundays which is a 50% reduction over the level of service operated on the other 6 days of the week. Therefore there ought to be enough stock to double up every train on Sundays.

It’s the same with the ridiculous state of affairs between Nottingham and Liverpool every single Saturday morning when a 2 car train turns up on one of the busiest mid morning trains and leaves passengers behind at several stations every week. For large parts of the day this route is currently only being run every 2 hours so there ought to be enough stock for the remaining trains to all be 4 car or even 6 car between Nottingham and Liverpool. A one off problem on a Saturday morning can perhaps be excused but you only have to read this forum to see that it’s every week. Then there is the overcrowding on the Robin Hood Line every Saturday which has also seen a 50% reduction in the timetable and doesn’t look like it will get any better before next May at the earliest.

EMR continue to get away with it week after week. Both the Sheffield and Nottingham services are currently only running hourly on Sundays which is a 50% reduction over the level of service operated on the other 6 days of the week. Therefore there ought to be enough stock to double up every train on Sundays.

It’s the same with the ridiculous state of affairs between Nottingham and Liverpool every single Saturday morning when a 2 car train turns up on one of the busiest mid morning trains and leaves passengers behind at several stations every week. For large parts of the day this route is currently only being run every 2 hours so there ought to be enough stock for the remaining trains to all be 4 car or even 6 car between Nottingham and Liverpool. A one off problem on a Saturday morning can perhaps be excused but you only have to read this forum to see that it’s every week. Then there is the overcrowding on the Robin Hood Line every Saturday which has also seen a 50% reduction in the timetable and doesn’t look like it will get any better before next May at the earliest.

The current state of affairs on Sundays the IC route is unforgivable to me. EMT ran double sets on Sundays mornings/early afternoon until the 2tph kicked in later afternoon/evening. Yes they’ve lost HSTs but 5 car 222s on 1tph Sheffield’s is ridiculous and totally avoidable from my point of view.

 

[Bald Rick]

I saw a double set out earlier on the 1202 Sheffield, so clearly some are running.

 

[TheBigD]

EMR really do seem to be taking the biscuit atm. Sunday services have always been busy on the MML and turning out 5 car 222s for Sheffield to London and then setting intermediate stations PIS and announcements to say “Please note this train is reported as being very busy” is just poor. What are passengers supposed to do wait 45 mins (stations also served by Nottingham runs) or an hour for the next one which is likely to be the same?

Only the 0823, 1152, 1252 Sheffield-St Pancras services are 5 car today. The rest are a mixture of either 7, 4+4, 4+5, 5+5.

Northbound from St Pancras to Sheffield only the 0930 and 1732 are 5 car, again everything else is either 7, 4+4, 4+5 or 5+5.

On the St Pancras to Nottingham, only the 1000 was a 5 car, everything else is either 7 or 5+5.

Nottingham to St Pancras everything is either 7 or 5+5.

Seems like EMR have made the effort to have most services strengthened, though the reduced service operating will mean some overcrowding is inevitable.

 

[dk1]

Only the 0823, 1152, 1252 Sheffield-St Pancras services are 5 car today. The rest are a mixture of either 7, 4+4, 4+5, 5+5.

Northbound from St Pancras to Sheffield only the 0930 and 1732 are 5 car, again everything else is either 7, 4+4, 4+5 or 5+5.

On the St Pancras to Nottingham, only the 1000 was a 5 car, everything else is either 7 or 5+5.

Nottingham to St Pancras everything is either 7 or 5+5.

Seems like EMR have made the effort to have most services strengthened, though the reduced service operating will mean some overcrowding is inevitable.

Would the 08:23, 11:52 & 12:52 up services normally be a single unit or is this a hangover from yesterday’s disruption which would then be understandable?

 

[TheBigD]

Would the 08:23, 11:52 & 12:52 up services normally be a single unit or is this a hangover from yesterday’s disruption which would then be understandable?

Pass. I only looked at today.

 

[dk1]

Pass. I only looked at today.

Ok thanks.

 

[43066]

Northbound from St Pancras to Sheffield only the 0930 and 1732 are 5 car, again everything else is either 7, 4+4, 4+5 or 5+5.

The 1732 is very definitely a 10 car…

 

[Trainfan2019]

The 1632 from St Pancras to Sheffield today left St Pancras full and standing, first class declassified and no catering. Was this a single or double unit?

 

[TheBigD]

The 1632 from St Pancras to Sheffield today left St Pancras full and standing, first class declassified and no catering. Was this a single or double unit?

Shown 222003. So 7 car.

The 7 car 222s have (I think) 338 seats (106 1st and 232 std)

 

[Jamesrob637]

EMR couldnae be bothered (as the Scots say) to put 4-car on the 11:50 Liverpool to Norwich yesterday.

 

[dk1]

EMR couldnae be bothered (as the Scots say) to put 4-car on the 11:50 Liverpool to Norwich yesterday.

Such a strange comment. Was an extra unit available?

 

[Skymonster]

Such a strange comment. Was an extra unit available?

If the service is timetabled for four cars, it doesn’t matter - EMR should be held accountable and liable for not providing four cars rather than just fob off the short form in an obscure message on the website and expect customers to suck it up.

 

[dk1]

If the service is timetabled for four cars, it doesn’t matter - EMR should be held accountable and liable for not providing four cars rather than just fob off the short form in an obscure message on the website and expect customers to suck it up.

Couldnea be bothered?? It does matter if it wasn’t available. Held accountable in what way? Nothing in life is always perfect.

 

[Jamesrob637]

Such a strange comment. Was an extra unit available?

With some gaps in service on that line even Monday to Saturday, you'd think that what does run could be 4-car?! I even looked on EMR Journey check (it looks a little different to other TOCs' Journey Check page) and it wasn't showing as a short-form.

EMR really is the poor relation Manchester to Sheffield right now. And don't get most of us started on Sundays!

 

[dk1]

With some gaps in service on that line even Monday to Saturday, you'd think that what does run could be 4-car?! I even looked on EMR Journey check (it looks a little different to other TOC' Journey Check page) and it wasn't showing as a short-form.

You would think but If none where available then none where available. Your comment made things sound very different.