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East Midlands Railway short formed services

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43066

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Meanwhile I very rarely see the 180s out at the weekend, although they could be sneaking into and out of Nottingham.

There’s lots of doubling up at weekends, and 180s are now only supposed to run as single units due to problems with the couplings if units are attached/detached too frequently.


If its down to onboard staffing, its absolutely nuts that a pair of 222s can't operate with the driver in the front unit and the guard / TM in the rear unit

It isn’t just that. It’s also down unit shortages because lots of maintenance staff/shed drivers etc are also being pinged and isolating.

At some point, someone in the management team needs to stand up and say they are going to do it for the sake of the fare-paying customers

Which would lead to trains being cancelled en mass because, quite correctly, the staff would refuse to depart from agreed working practices to operate them. That also isn’t good for fair paying customers.

That *absolutely* isn’t to spite passengers. It’s because if the company asks staff to deviate from the agreed rules and something goes wrong, those same members will then find themselves in hot water with the company for departing from what’s been agreed.

That might sound mad, but it’s just the way the industry works, and part of the reason why the unions are there in the first place (it’s also by no means specific to EMR).


and management should tell the staff to switch of the NHS Track and Trace app too!).

Lots of staff members have deleted it across the industry (this one never downloaded it!).

But it’s difficult for any company to be seen to be *requiring* this in the current circumstances when even the government doesn’t seem to know its backside from its elbow in terms of what people are supposed to do.
 
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bunnahabhain

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This weekend casual observation at Derby and Sheffield suggests there were far more solo 4- and 5-car 222s out than in previous weekends when they have usually been paired. The EMR website also reported several trains southbound from Derby and north from St Pancras full and standing on Sunday. So now, whatever the true excuse is, its seemingly starting to affect the Intercity route as well as Regional. Meanwhile I very rarely see the 180s out at the weekend, although they could be sneaking into and out of Nottingham. If its down to onboard staffing, its absolutely nuts that a pair of 222s can't operate with the driver in the front unit and the guard / TM in the rear unit given such arrangements are allowed at other TOCs. At some point, someone in the management team needs to stand up and say they are going to do it for the sake of the fare-paying customers (yes, yes, I know someone is going to say the union won't allow it [see 360 topic] but the railway needs to function for customers as much as employees - and management should tell the staff to switch of the NHS Track and Trace app too!).
Actually the union and the companies do allow it, it just isn't planned for it to occur. Standard practice for 22x in multiple it for a TM in each portion on VT, XC and EMR. However a contingency is there for a customer host to be present in the leading unit, or in an absolute emergency just a driver. It has been done before and I'm sure it will be done again.
 

Jozhua

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that is a structural issue and is borne of the Government introducing legislation to signal its virtue, without coughing up the dosh to pay for it fast enough.
You could probably chalk up a significant proportion of the issues on the railways today to this very reason!
Abellio's stewardship of EM franchise has shown itself to be very poor compared with Stagecoach. Management must be poor and not up to it, franchise plan based too much on theory that turned out to be unable to be delivered. Passengers have had no great compensation for all this as fares have continued their govt dictated rises.

Had of DfT behind all of this but of course the brown end of the stick is what the traveler has to put up with.

As Arthur Seaton might have said "...all the rest is propaganda" !
I'm willing to give EMR the benefit of the doubt for now. While some of this was definately self inflicted by a less than well thought through plan (one that probably seemed cheapest), I would bet most of the management team have transferred from EMT. Tbh, the stories I've heard from people's first hand experience at EMT HQ, I can't say that they sounded that much better either!
 

londonmidland

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The usual cancellations and full and standing trains across the network today, as a result of unit shortages (A Class 180 failure?), train crew shortages and on the regional side:

“This is due to a shortage of trains because of extra safety inspections.”

Some late night regional cancellations tonight for anyone travelling to/from Nottingham.
 

LowLevel

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Plenty of train crew shortages. Despite the industrial issues crews are being flexible and it's still not enough, unfortunately.
 

STINT47

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On the intercity side with most trains now formed of five car Meridians overcrowding at the weekend is pretty much guaranteed.

Saturday is the new peak but services are not long enough to meet demand.
 

Bald Rick

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The usual cancellations and full and standing trains across the network today, as a result of unit shortages (A Class 180 failure?), train crew shortages and on the regional side:

“This is due to a shortage of trains because of extra safety inspections.”

Some late night regional cancellations tonight for anyone travelling to/from Nottingham.

Some of the crowding will be the test at Trent Bridge...
 

43055

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On the intercity side with most trains now formed of five car Meridians overcrowding at the weekend is pretty much guaranteed.

Saturday is the new peak but services are not long enough to meet demand.
Or even 4 cars. One was on a Sheffield fast the other day and Tiger is showing 4 cars on the 1550 from Nottingham and 1601 from Sheffield.

At least 1 10 car is out and will be on the 1612 from Nottingham.
 

ChrisC

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On the intercity side with most trains now formed of five car Meridians overcrowding at the weekend is pretty much guaranteed.

Saturday is the new peak but services are not long enough to meet demand.
Unfortunately I think this is something that passengers will have to get used to long term on the MML. The new 810 trains ordered for the route are all 5 carriage sets. I understand that they have a higher number of seats than the Meridians and we are being told that a large number of services will be operated as double sets. However, we all know that often does not happen and I suspect that we are in for a future of overcrowded 5 car trains especially with short forms during busy weekends.
 

Bald Rick

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Unfortunately I think this is something that passengers will have to get used to long term on the MML. The new 810 trains ordered for the route are all 5 carriage sets. I understand that they have a higher number of seats than the Meridians and we are being told that a large number of services will be operated as double sets. However, we all know that often does not happen and I suspect that we are in for a future of overcrowded 5 car trains especially with short forms during busy weekends.

Do some research. Each 5 car 810 has a similar number of seats to a 7 car 222. And hopefully by then we’ll be out of a global pandemic, when’re maintenance staff / operational staff aren’t off work I substantial numbers.
 

Llandudno

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On the intercity side with most trains now formed of five car Meridians overcrowding at the weekend is pretty much guaranteed.

Saturday is the new peak but services are not long enough to meet demand.
Saturdays will get even busier now that the football season is back and crowds are allowed!
 

306024

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17.52 Liverpool Lime St to Norwich full and standing throughout from Manchester Piccadilly. Formed of just a 2 car 158. Train now 22 late from Sheffield which may or may not be related, no idea as I couldn’t get on at Stockport so heading for a late one home via London instead.
 

Llandudno

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17.52 Liverpool Lime St to Norwich full and standing throughout from Manchester Piccadilly. Formed of just a 2 car 158. Train now 22 late from Sheffield which may or may not be related, no idea as I couldn’t get on at Stockport so heading for a late one home via London instead.
Incredible to think that a 2 car unit was allocated to this service considering that the 1652 and 1852 trains are not operating at the moment.

Roll on TPE running Cleethorpes to Liverpool next year, hopefully!
 

306024

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Incredible to think that a 2 car unit was allocated to this service considering that the 1652 and 1852 trains are not operating at the moment.

Roll on TPE running Cleethorpes to Liverpool next year, hopefully!

It must be booked a 4 car train, as the automatic station announcement said the train would divide at Nottingham, with the non-existent rear portion terminating there.
 

Killingworth

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It must be booked a 4 car train, as the automatic station announcement said the train would divide at Nottingham, with the non-existent rear portion terminating there.
That, unfortunately, has been a feature of the route for years. Anyone in the know would currently take a TPE train between Manchester and Sheffield for space and speed, or Northern for price and space - and both would be more likely to run to time.
 

londonmidland

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I was disappointed when it was announced that TransPennine Express weren’t awarded the Nottingham - Liverpool service as these short forms with EMT/EMR is nothing new.

Talking of the route, why is it that the EMR 170s aren’t going to be used on it, or have I been mistaken?
 

Jozhua

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I was disappointed when it was announced that TransPennine Express weren’t awarded the Nottingham - Liverpool service as these short forms with EMT/EMR is nothing new.

Talking of the route, why is it that the EMR 170s aren’t going to be used on it, or have I been mistaken?
My assumption would be a mixture of route clearence/suitability. - 158's can use higher speeds on Hope Valley, plus have been used on this route for a very long time.

Maybe 170s would be better, but I think it really needs to be six car formations for that to work...
 

josla1

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It must be booked a 4 car train, as the automatic station announcement said the train would divide at Nottingham, with the non-existent rear portion terminating there.
This was booked as a 4 car service. I checked TRUST and LICC prior to arrival yet still only showed up as a 2 car. This was crush loaded and people were left behind at Piccadilly at 18:42. Copped a fair bit of flack for it too.
 

Killingworth

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This was booked as a 4 car service. I checked TRUST and LICC prior to arrival yet still only showed up as a 2 car. This was crush loaded and people were left behind at Piccadilly at 18:42. Copped a fair bit of flack for it too.
Again this is nothing new. A 2 coach 158 is liable to be delayed at every stop. Those lucky enough to have got seats have to fight through the crush to get out and it gets later and later. I've experienced it at Oxford Road, Piccadilly and Southport where passengers had to get out and back on again to release those from the centre of the coach. Having a reserved seat was no help unless boarding in Liverpool.

Pre-Covid a 4 coach 158 could be very well filled and the welcome refreshment trolley might just about get down the train. On a 2 car it's impossible and just adds to the crush! Last time I used EMR from Liverpool it was 4 car, although 2 were 153s.
 

dosxuk

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Anyone in the know would currently take a TPE train between Manchester and Sheffield for space and speed
To be fair, this has flipped over the last few years. The TPE 2 or 3 car sets were always crush loaded while the 4 car EMTs had plenty of space - then the sensible passengers waited for the EMT.
 

Bletchleyite

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My assumption would be a mixture of route clearence/suitability. - 158's can use higher speeds on Hope Valley, plus have been used on this route for a very long time.

Maybe 170s would be better, but I think it really needs to be six car formations for that to work...

Central Trains used 170s. Pairs would solve the capacity issue.
 

Domh245

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Wasn't it the case that EMR were barely going to have enough 170s for the rest of the regional services as it was - and that was assuming that they managed to get the full complement of turbostars they wanted. They've not even got those yet, and what they do have are being concentrated on where they will be working long term, which will presumably have their own "long term" rolling stock solution - be that 158s, 185s, or something else
 

43055

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Wasn't it the case that EMR were barely going to have enough 170s for the rest of the regional services as it was - and that was assuming that they managed to get the full complement of turbostars they wanted. They've not even got those yet, and what they do have are being concentrated on where they will be working long term, which will presumably have their own "long term" rolling stock solution - be that 158s, 185s, or something else
I believe it was the case that the regional fleet plan was for everything except Liverpool - Nottingham.
 

Mugby

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Norwich City vs Manchester City at Manchester, next Saturday, 21st.

I wonder if EMR will take account of this when allocating units on Saturday!
 

Watershed

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Norwich City vs Manchester City at Manchester, next Saturday, 21st.

I wonder if EMR will take account of this when allocating units on Saturday!
An event like that will certainly be on their radar. But I doubt you'll get many fans travelling all the way on the train, and even if they were expecting lots of fans, they don't exactly have the spare rolling stock to strengthen services at the moment.
 

dk1

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Norwich City vs Manchester City at Manchester, next Saturday, 21st.

I wonder if EMR will take account of this when allocating units on Saturday!
I doubt it. The overcrowding was severe last Saturday with Liverpool playing at Carrow Road.

The 11:56 ex-Norwich has been full & standing every Monday, Friday & Saturday as the frequency has dropped to 2-hourly.
 

ChrisC

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An event like that will certainly be on their radar. But I doubt you'll get many fans travelling all the way on the train, and even if they were expecting lots of fans, they don't exactly have the spare rolling stock to strengthen services at the moment.
Why haven’t they got any spare rolling stock to strengthen services at the moment?
The service on the Robin Hood Line has been cut by half. Trains are only running 2 hourly between Newark and Crewe, Norwich to Liverpool is only 2 hourly at certain times of the day and the Nottingham to Matlock Service is only running between Derby and Matlock. That’s without taking into consideration service reductions in the Lincolnshire area.
I can understand trains being cancelled due to staff shortages, but even with their limited supply of rolling stock, with all these timetable reductions there must be stock available. If there isn’t I can’t see a full timetable being restored again this side of Christmas. Stagecoach may not have retained the franchise but their Pronto bus service between Mansfield and Nottingham must be picking up some extra passengers who have given up on the appalling service now being provided on the Robin Hood Line.
 
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Skymonster

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Apparently they have more than the usual numbers of fitters off too (covid pings), so trains aren’t being repaired as quickly as usual.

from another forum, one of last Saturday morning’s Nottingham-Skegness was cancelled, the next was a 156 with two 153s attached, that was crush loaded and still left 60 passengers on the platform. Bear in mind last year there were HSTs on a couple of the Saturday Skeg services.

It’s really a farce, what with the cancellations due to strikes too, and it’s doing nothing to endear customers to the railway. If it wasn’t for GBR, I’d be thinking it’d be getting near to the DfT needing to take back control anyway.
 

43055

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Why haven’t they got any spare rolling stock to strengthen services at the moment?
The service on the Robin Hood Line has been cut by half. Trains are only running 2 hourly between Newark and Crewe, Norwich to Liverpool is only 2 hourly at certain times of the day and the Nottingham to Matlock Service is only running between Derby and Matlock. That’s without taking into consideration service reductions in the Lincolnshire area.
I can understand trains being cancelled due to staff shortages, but even with their limited supply of rolling stock, with all these timetable reductions there must be stock available. If there isn’t I can’t see a full timetable being restored again this side of Christmas. Stagecoach may not have retained the franchise but their Pronto bus service between Mansfield and Nottingham must be picking up some extra passengers who have given up on the appalling service now being provided on the Robin Hood Line.
I really hope the full timetable returns in December!

Derby - Crewe was left with a 4 hour gap today after the first Crewe bound service failed at Nottingham. This meant the first arrival into Crewe wasn't until 1105!
 

STINT47

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Does anyone know why EMR trains are always so filthy on the outside. I cannot remember the last time that I traveled on a service that didn't have dirty windows.
 
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