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East Midlands Railway short formed services

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Killingworth

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Highly unusual sight yesterday morning at Sheffield just around 10:00 - two EMR 158s joined together and heading to Manchester and Liverpool (yes, the combo does still exist on the railways, at least occasionally). The double set was full with standing in the vestibules on departure, so goodness knows what chaos would have ensued had it been short formed.

A lesser spotted EMR 4 car 158 was also seen on the 12.41 from Platform 1B at Sheffield yesterday. I was too far away to say it was rammed but it looked well filled.

My own 3 car Northern service on the Hope Valley route was standing in all coaches to Dore but rammed wouldn't be a fair description. It possibly looked rammed from outside but a lot of young active people preferred to stand in doorways to keep together There'd have been seats for them all somewhere in the train if more had moved forward. No Sheffield - Liverpool EMR services at all today. Sheffield- Grantham at 11.44 was a a single 156.

20210918_124136.jpg
 
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Mugby

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Does anyone know if EMR made any provision for the football fans travelling to Derby for the Derby County v Stoke City game on Saturday?

There was a time when EMT would have supplied a short Meridian for such an event!
 

martinsh

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Does anyone know if EMR made any provision for the football fans travelling to Derby for the Derby County v Stoke City game on Saturday?

There was a time when EMT would have supplied a short Meridian for such an event!
They did ! The was a special train Stoke - Derby and return formed of a 5 coach Meridian. At least one local service was strengthened to 2 x 156 as well. There is a thread about it elsewhere.
 

Doctor Fegg

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We were told it fell apart due to lack of staff trained in the right route/traction combinations.
The story of timetable changes on TSGN, Northern (perhaps to a lesser extent), and EMR seems to be that the railway can in theory plan for trains to be in the right place at the right time... but isn't so great at successfully planning for the drivers and conductors to actually move said trains. So a timetable that works on paper falls apart at the first sign of contact with the enemy.

Is that a fair assessment? Should there be a halt to big bang timetable changes until TOCs improve their modelling of staff allocation?
 

edwin_m

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The story of timetable changes on TSGN, Northern (perhaps to a lesser extent), and EMR seems to be that the railway can in theory plan for trains to be in the right place at the right time... but isn't so great at successfully planning for the drivers and conductors to actually move said trains. So a timetable that works on paper falls apart at the first sign of contact with the enemy.

Is that a fair assessment? Should there be a halt to big bang timetable changes until TOCs improve their modelling of staff allocation?
I think the problem here is not so much diagramming the staff, but knowing in advance that there will be enough of them with the appropriate traction and route knowledge.
 

ricoblade

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They did ! The was a special train Stoke - Derby and return formed of a 5 coach Meridian. At least one local service was strengthened to 2 x 156 as well. There is a thread about it elsewhere.
Interesting, where's the other thread please? Is there provision for this Saturday, Rams at Blades where Derby are selling a lot of tickets.
 

43055

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Interesting, where's the other thread please? Is there provision for this Saturday, Rams at Blades where Derby are selling a lot of tickets.
Here. Talk about Saturday started from post #197

 

warwickshire

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Can anyone assist further please.
With the following information.
What is the latest on the Barton on humber branch next week please.
Also what 153s will be dispensation further.
How long for?.
Or could it be a 156 on the branch but with east Midlands railways ie traction knowledge and transpennie Express providing route knowledge and maybe causing a shortformed service elsewhere due to this.
Thanking anyone for any advice on this interesting little piece off track.
 

Watershed

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Can anyone assist further please.
With the following information.
What is the latest on the Barton on humber branch next week please.
Also what 153s will be dispensation further.
How long for?.
Or could it be a 156 on the branch but with east Midlands railways ie traction knowledge and transpennie Express providing route knowledge and maybe causing a shortformed service elsewhere due to this.
Thanking anyone for any advice on this interesting little piece off track.
It will not be a 156. That much is certain.
 

Jozhua

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I'm thinking it's time to admit defeat on the 170s for local services. Clearly they aren't cut out for it, certainly not on the Robin Hood line.

I remember moving to Manchester at the peak of the Northern crisis. Things have actually improved significantly with a slightly reduced post-covid timetable, Manchester-Blackpool electrification, reaching a deal with strikes and the introduction of 195s/331s and removal of Pacers (lower capacity, but they were unreliable and frequently block tracks/platforms).

I'd say that while EMR is in better shape than Northern were at that point, at least with Northern there was some kind of long term plan moving forwards. Unfortunately this is EMR's long term plan, which leaves me feeling sceptical as to whether improvement will come.

The cheapest solution would be to swap all 158s back to regional routes and put 170s on Liverpool/Norwich and perhaps Derby-Crewe (basically routes with higher average speeds/station spacing).

The second best/cheapest solution would be 195s.

The best solution would be electrification of the MML, Hope Valley and then using battery range extended EMUs for pretty much all of the regional service.
 

Jamesrob637

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Shall we spllt the 170 discussion in Speculative Ideas with a new thread "Should Liverpool to Norwich go over to Class 170 operation?"

In fact I've done so, as it's irrelevant to stock shortages but relevant elsewhere.
 
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LowLevel

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I'm thinking it's time to admit defeat on the 170s for local services. Clearly they aren't cut out for it, certainly not on the Robin Hood line.

I remember moving to Manchester at the peak of the Northern crisis. Things have actually improved significantly with a slightly reduced post-covid timetable, Manchester-Blackpool electrification, reaching a deal with strikes and the introduction of 195s/331s and removal of Pacers (lower capacity, but they were unreliable and frequently block tracks/platforms).

I'd say that while EMR is in better shape than Northern were at that point, at least with Northern there was some kind of long term plan moving forwards. Unfortunately this is EMR's long term plan, which leaves me feeling sceptical as to whether improvement will come.

The cheapest solution would be to swap all 158s back to regional routes and put 170s on Liverpool/Norwich and perhaps Derby-Crewe (basically routes with higher average speeds/station spacing).

The second best/cheapest solution would be 195s.

The best solution would be electrification of the MML, Hope Valley and then using battery range extended EMUs for pretty much all of the regional service.

The 170s aren't that bad (though they're tired). A big thing is the tiny tweaks to the schedule that have a big impact. This shows across all the routes. All of those little improvements and bits of padding put in the right places over the years have gone in favour of over ambitious flat minimum timings all over the place. Going back to a 15x timing load even with a 170 would help.

You can see it across the routes.

3 minute turnaround times with 4 car trains at Grantham during the peak Skegness holiday season.

The loss of the Robin Hood line late night padding that is essential to get rid of the drunks licking the windows at their mates inside without losing time.

The change to the RHL schedules entirely that muck up journey opportunities and slaughter the single lines.

2 and 3 minute turnarounds on the Crewe line at Derby with minimal time at Crewe and Newark.

Trains booked to use platform 1 at Sleaford to run from Peterborough to Lincoln during the day making minimum time connections or sub minimum time with trains to/from Skegness, giving either ludicrous journey times or making it impossible for anyone who can't use the footbridge to change trains.

The full unreduced timetable makes Nottingham and Lincoln unmanageable maelstroms of shunt movements that absorb lots of resources in their own right, particularly platform staff and depot drivers at Nottingham to kick out and shunt units.

It was all very nice on paper but many long standing connections have been wrecked and there are innumerable problems with the schedules that will remain difficult regardless of whether you're using any kind of DMU.

Replacing the 170s will make no difference to any of that.
 
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Skymonster

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Most likely not even a train, it will be bustitution
If the 153 dispensation does indeed expire on Sunday as I previously mentioned, and from Monday it is a bus, it is absolutely disgraceful that EMR has not yet publicly admitted it - and shows what contempt EMR has for its customers. I sincerely hope that the Bartons are operated by some sort of train next week.
 

Bald Rick

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I'm thinking it's time to admit defeat on the 170s for local services. Clearly they aren't cut out for it, certainly not on the Robin Hood line.

Yet they work fine on local services around the West Midlands. Perhaps it’s not the trains....
 

Skymonster

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I am at the point where I don’t think Abellio management care about EMR anymore… Maybe they want the DfT to take back control?
 

Bikeman78

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Yet they work fine on local services around the West Midlands. Perhaps it’s not the trains....
To be fair they have settled down in South Wales but they could be out paced by a Pacer on the Maesteg and Ebbw Vale lines. They do win on the Gloucester line with the faster sections and longer runs.
 

Jozhua

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Yet they work fine on local services around the West Midlands. Perhaps it’s not the trains....
The timetables in the Midlands were designed around 156's primarily. Okay acceleration at low speeds, top speed of 75.

The 170's win at points on the MML, such as between Derby and Nottingham where they can do around 90mph. The timetables probably need reconfiguring timing-wise. Tbh most of the routes are okay besides clearly Robin Hood. That probably shouldn't have been single-tracked but it's too late now. Tbh long term I think it should become a Nottingham Regional Express/Metro service - but I shall create a new thread for that!
 

edwin_m

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The timetables in the Midlands were designed around 156's primarily. Okay acceleration at low speeds, top speed of 75.

The 170's win at points on the MML, such as between Derby and Nottingham where they can do around 90mph. The timetables probably need reconfiguring timing-wise. Tbh most of the routes are okay besides clearly Robin Hood. That probably shouldn't have been single-tracked but it's too late now. Tbh long term I think it should become a Nottingham Regional Express/Metro service - but I shall create a new thread for that!
Tram-train was looked at back in the 1990s for what became the NET Hucknall route, but a parallel running solution was adopted primarily because people didn't have confidence tram-train could be delivered in the uncertain time around privatisation. That made it inevitable that the Robin Hood Line would have single line sections - for example you'd have to demolish large chunks of Bulwell for parallel running there.
 

raetiamann

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The timetables in the Midlands were designed around 156's primarily. Okay acceleration at low speeds, top speed of 75.

The 170's win at points on the MML, such as between Derby and Nottingham where they can do around 90mph. The timetables probably need reconfiguring timing-wise. Tbh most of the routes are okay besides clearly Robin Hood. That probably shouldn't have been single-tracked but it's too late now. Tbh long term I think it should become a Nottingham Regional Express/Metro service - but I shall create a new thread for that!
I think the Robin Hood line argument applies equally to the Derwent Valley line, though I suspect passengers on both routes are enjoying more comfortable journeys.
 

ChrisC

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The timetables in the Midlands were designed around 156's primarily. Okay acceleration at low speeds, top speed of 75.

The 170's win at points on the MML, such as between Derby and Nottingham where they can do around 90mph. The timetables probably need reconfiguring timing-wise. Tbh most of the routes are okay besides clearly Robin Hood. That probably shouldn't have been single-tracked but it's too late now. Tbh long term I think it should become a Nottingham Regional Express/Metro service - but I shall create a new thread for that!
The single line section on the RHL only causes a problem if there has been a delay causing a train to run late. It does then take a good while to get trains running on time again. For well over 20 years the RHL has been run successfully with 2tph south of Mansfield and trains have mainly run on time. As a number of people have recently pointed out it is the current timetables that are the problem and not the trains or the restrictions of the single line. It needs the pre covid timetable restoring which ran successfully for so many years and worked. The new timetable is so inadequate that there isn’t even a morning peak time train northwards from Hucknall because it passes through the station slowly without stopping.
 

Jozhua

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Tram-train was looked at back in the 1990s for what became the NET Hucknall route, but a parallel running solution was adopted primarily because people didn't have confidence tram-train could be delivered in the uncertain time around privatisation. That made it inevitable that the Robin Hood Line would have single line sections - for example you'd have to demolish large chunks of Bulwell for parallel running there.
Now we know Tram-Train is possible, might be worth looking at!

That said, the issues could mostly be operationally optimised unless we decide that we want to increase frequency on the heavy rail bit.
 

edwin_m

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Now we know Tram-Train is possible, might be worth looking at!

That said, the issues could mostly be operationally optimised unless we decide that we want to increase frequency on the heavy rail bit.
That would involve digging up most of the section to start again, and replacing the entire tram fleet with tram-trains. There's no case for that when there are so many other routes crying out for transport investment, especially as the train service ran acceptably well up until the latest changes. Look at timetable fixes before electronics before concrete!
 

Killingworth

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Short forms again on Norwich-Liverpool today. What happened to IR60 at Sheffield this morning? Arrived only a couple of minutes late at 9.39 after being held just out of the station it was due to leave at 9.43 but finally got away 27 minutes late at 10.10.

The following TPE Cleethorpes - Piccadilly was due out 10.11 but delayed to 10.17. Which delayed the Northern 10.14 allowed away at 10.15, but then held to allow the TPE to overtake and 7 minutes late at Dore. All 3 looked to be well filled.
 

Skymonster

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The EMR brain trust managed to allocate a five-car 222 alone on the 1800 1C83 Sheffield-St Pancras this evening an hour after Derby County had played Sheffield United. The preceding Cross Country 1756 1V66 left four late and was well wedged, while the EMR was standing in the vestibules. While I accept there aren’t always units just laying around it’s bizarre EMR managed to rustle up a spare 222 when Derby played Stoke, but couldn’t double up (or allocate a seven car) on an fairly local match day. I suppose I should be grateful it wasn’t a four-car!
 

Wyrleybart

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The timetables in the Midlands were designed around 156's primarily. Okay acceleration at low speeds, top speed of 75.

The 170's win at points on the MML, such as between Derby and Nottingham where they can do around 90mph. The timetables probably need reconfiguring timing-wise. Tbh most of the routes are okay besides clearly Robin Hood. That probably shouldn't have been single-tracked but it's too late now. Tbh long term I think it should become a Nottingham Regional Express/Metro service - but I shall create a new thread for that!

The issue is that class 170s were designed to cruise along with a max speed of 100mph, and were acquired for "Sprinter Express" type work - ie one-up from a 90mph class 158. 158s are now 30 years old and 150s and 156s are rocking up to 35 years old. So the original suburban start-stop workhorses have been scrapped and a BR style cascade has happened to some TOCs. Those nice comfy 170s with CET and a good top speed have been displaced onto lesser duties including suburban work which they weren't really designed for.

Now if the owning Roscos found some spare cash down the back of their boardroom sofa the suburban 170s could have a new drive train better suited to their new(ish) role.
 

Spartacus

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Short forms again on Norwich-Liverpool today. What happened to IR60 at Sheffield this morning? Arrived only a couple of minutes late at 9.39 after being held just out of the station it was due to leave at 9.43 but finally got away 27 minutes late at 10.10.

The following TPE Cleethorpes - Piccadilly was due out 10.11 but delayed to 10.17. Which delayed the Northern 10.14 allowed away at 10.15, but then held to allow the TPE to overtake and 7 minutes late at Dore. All 3 looked to be well filled.

A hell of a lot of passengers bound for football matches and gigs.
 

londonmidland

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Short forms again on Norwich-Liverpool today. What happened to IR60 at Sheffield this morning? Arrived only a couple of minutes late at 9.39 after being held just out of the station it was due to leave at 9.43 but finally got away 27 minutes late at 10.10.
From what I heard, the guard of that said services chucked off any standing pax for whatever reason. This subsequently caused the following service(s) to be busier.
 

Llandudno

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From what I heard, the guard of that said services chucked off any standing pax for whatever reason. This subsequently caused the following service(s) to be busier.
Happens every Saturday, but EMR keep putting 2 coaches on it!
 
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