East Midlands rural service improvements

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by Failed Unit, 12 Sep 2019.

  1. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    At last the East Midlands routes will typically get an hourly service. (Well in 2 years time)

    It will also be getting rid of the 153.

    But which is actually the biggest killer of demand.

    Timetable.
    Most of the routes in Lincolnshire are currently unusable for commuters. Grimsby, Doncaster and Peterborough lines can’t realistically be used for travelling to work. Even for leisure many gaps larger than 2 hours make it unattractive if you have access to a car.

    153s
    Many routes such as Derby - Crewe, Grimsby - Newark are operated by 153s which often leave passengers behind. You don’t want growth because the railway is full.

    With both changing do people expect decent levels of growth on these routes?

    The timetable hasn’t altered much since the 1990s. Optimisation to ECML services unimportant. I have wondered if the reluctance to improve the timetable is because the 153s can’t cope with any growth. It is off for example after such a large investment the Spalding - Sleaford service is still only running for such a short time.

    Interested in views. Will the hourly timetable kick start growth, or will the hourly service be carting around a lot of fresh air?
     
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  3. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    I know the Newark-Grimsby route is full and by making it at least 2 carriages (maybe even three) and going to hourly is great improvement. Lincolnshire is currently desperate for improvements.
     
  4. geoffk

    geoffk Established Member

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    Surely the 153s should still have a role when coupled to a PRM-compliant unit, as Northern does at the moment. Where are they going to end up (apart from the few being converted to bike carriers in Scotland)?

    I've used Doncaster - Lincoln occasionally and it should be the quickest way to Lincoln from Leeds etc. if it had a decent level of service.
     
  5. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    Planned to go hourly and run from Doncaster to Peterborough which I am sure is better than the 5tpd currently.
     
  6. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    Now the Joint line is 75 mph in most places I think demand is suppressed by the service and will increase when it improves. Sleaford to Lincoln is already a busy flow and the peak time 2 car services are generally full and standing during term times.

    Grimsby to Lincoln is another route which seems to be more popular than the number of carriages available to operate it.
     
  7. Kettledrum

    Kettledrum Member

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    There is significant potential for the route between Derby and Crewe, in terms of unlocking East-West journey possibilities, because both Derby and Crewe are significant railway junctions.

    As well as a lack of rolling stock to make eliminate single coach trains, from memory, in the past, the development of this route was suppressed because there are a number of level crossings on the line and the working hours of signalling staff. There was also plans at one stage to convert a tunnel from double track to single track. Are any of these still likely to be problematic?
     
  8. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

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    I would expect that hourly services on these lines will boost numbers quite considerably over time. The poor times and frequencies at present must deter a lot of people.
     
  9. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    If the get the connections right that will also be a big boost. I think 2 car will be fine when you couple it with the frequency increases.

    But if the Grimsby - Nottingham service connects in well with the Lincoln - London it should be a nice boost in numbers as well. Peterborough- Doncaster needs decent ECML connections to thrive. It is a shame Derby - Crewe was cut back, Nottingham- Crewe was much better.

    I do recall BR ran it like this for a while, but also remember it as Lincoln - Crewe.

    I haven’t seen any proposal yet apart from clockface which to me is a big push in the right direct.

    Not seen many losers (apart from Norwich - Liverpool) in the new timetable.
     
  10. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    It is planned Derby to Crewe will be extended to Nottingham, in fact this is confirmed by Abellio to merge with the stopping Nottingham to Newark Castle service.
     
  11. Alfie1014

    Alfie1014 Member

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    Isn’t the plan recently shared by Richard Clinnick of RAIL is that when the GA 156s arrive by the end of the year they will eliminate single 153 operation.
     
  12. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    Correct.
    Will be interesting what they do with 0800 Lincoln - Peterborough. Which is 2x 153 splitting at Sleaford. 4 car 156 won’t fit on the platforms at Methringham and Ruskington. (0653 ex Nottingham)
     
  13. PHILIPE

    PHILIPE Established Member

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    TFW are PRMing their 153s
     
  14. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    The plan on a temporary basis is to use 153s with toilets locked out attached to 156s on the usual 3 car peak workings but also in pairs with class 158s on the Liverpool service to release other units for elsewhere- on a strictly temporary basis, obviously.
     
  15. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    Any reason to lock the toilet out? Surely having it in use is good for the passengers in that set. The passengers that need it will be in the set with it. Or is this another case of an unintended consequence of this legislation is the majority suffer.
     
  16. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    More to do with flushing onto the track I believe.
     
  17. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    Fair enough. Would be good to see an end to that.
     
  18. duffield

    duffield Member

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    Is it not possible to just open the doors on the front unit at these stations, or would this require modifications?
     
  19. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    Yes. But at the expense of a long dwell time. I suspect they will run the rear portion ECS.
     
  20. class26

    class26 Member

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    .........and also the return form Sleaford at 16.14 joins the incoming Peterborough with the previous arrival from Lincoln for a 2 car back to Lincoln . This is to cope with the school traffic
     
  21. edwin_m

    edwin_m Veteran Member

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    The Spalding-Sleaford service is still only runs very limited hours due to the signallers' shift times, but now it's been re-signaled trains can run during longer hours. This may allow EMR to get rid of these features, especially as the school train will now be a 2-car so doesn't need strengthening. This may be in advance of a big timetable change to extend the service hours.
     
  22. VT 390

    VT 390 Established Member

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    Why would it have a longer dwell time as long as they clearly announce to passengers at previous stations which carriages to board?
    Though running 2 carriages empty stock does make much more sense.
     
  23. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Crewe seems to be becoming less significant as time goes by. Just one train per hour towards Warrington/ Wigan/Preston/ Carlisle... huge gaps in the service beyond Chester (of up to four hours)... historically significant in the railway story but not as important as it once was IMHO.

    Even if that does happen (which would mean the two Lincoln - Newark services departing fairly close to each other), is that going to be competitive for Cleethorpes/ Grimsby - Peterborough/ London journeys when compared to the existing option of changing from the hourly TPE at Doncaster? It's a shame that the Doncaster - Scunthorpe DMU isn't being extended through to Grimsby/ Cleethorpes under the current Northern franchise - it'd improve connections much better if it did (but sits in that awkward land between "Northern" and "East Midland" - on a line where TPE provide the services - so seems to be nobody's priority.

    I'm just not convinced that there are enough people who'd do Grimsby - Lincoln - London (rather than via Doncaster) unless there was going to be enough of a time saving.

    At the moment Grimsby - Doncaster is about an hour and Grimsby - Lincoln is about an hour... Lincoln to Newark is about half an hour and Doncaster to Newark is about half an hour... so it doesn't feel like a big leap forward (unless the two Lincoln - Newark services are to run within a few minutes of each other?). Handy if you live in places like Market Rasen, I guess, but population density between Grimsby and Lincoln isn't great.
     
  24. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    Cleethorpes to Doncaster is 1 hour 15 minutes by train (I have done it a few times) and Grimsby to Lincoln is 55 minutes, Lincoln to Newark is 30 minutes as you said. The service will be well used for connections between Lincoln and Grimsby and Lincoln to Nottingham.
     
  25. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    I was comparing Grimsby times with Grimsby times.

    You're hardly being fair though; if you are adding the ten minutes of Cleethorpes to Grimsby onto the "via Doncaster" journey time then it seems a little skewed to make the "via Lincoln" journey seem faster by only starting that journey at Grimsby.

    For me, it seems pretty even to get from Grimsby to London via Doncaster/Lincoln if you were doing it in ideal circumstances - the only main difference will be how much connection there'll be at Lincoln onto the bi-hourly LNER service (i.e. between the two Lincoln - Newark trains) compared to the connection at Doncaster (which gets around four trains per hour to Kings Cross, so the connection time isn't bad).

    I get that people want to promote the idea of an improved link and all that, but I don't think that "hourly service to Lincoln to connect onto a bi-hourly service" is going to be transformational for Grimsby passengers when compared to the existing "hourly service to Doncaster to connect onto one of four London departures per hour".

    If anything, the Nottingham link should be of much better benefit to Grimsby passengers (esp given how poorly Nottingham is linked to places north of it).
     
  26. Jorge Da Silva

    Jorge Da Silva Established Member

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    An hourly service lincoln to Grimsby service is better than now alot of people already use that service so it would be busy NOT for Newark connections but to get from Lincoln to Grimsby and as you said Nottingham is probably a good connection for Grimsby passengers. PS the only way a London service is going to come to Grimsby or Cleethorpes is via Lincoln (through LNER). But Doncaster is preferred I agree, vast majority or people use a connection via Doncaster than Lincoln because the latter has low frequency and only one service but I still feel that some may start going to Lincoln but most will use Doncasters still (plus a connection to Doncaster offers links to Edinburgh and York.
     
  27. Failed Unit

    Failed Unit Established Member

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    156s don’t have door selection. If they are in a long formation they can only use the crew door.
     
  28. berwicksfinest

    berwicksfinest Member

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    That's not the case Werrington to Gainsborough Lea Road is covered by Lincoln signalling centre !! Its 24 hours and they seem to do a pretty good job of getting my Liner train round the joint at 02.10
     
  29. trebor79

    trebor79 Member

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    Your liner train uses the Sleaford avoiding line I guess? Sleaford station area has several mechanical signal boxes.
     
  30. LowLevel

    LowLevel Established Member

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    It has 2 remaining, Sleaford East and West. The avoiding line is controlled by Lincoln SCC.
     
  31. berwicksfinest

    berwicksfinest Member

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    yes we're on the avoider
     

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