East Midlands short notice disruption 27th Oct

[NoOnesFool]

There are lessons to be learnt from this.

It is possible for one company to hire resources from another. GA hires a Class 158 daily for a service from Norwich to Lowestoft and return. GA has also been known to hire Class 158s at short notice from EMT which would be stabled in the Norwich area should the route between Norwich and Ely / Peterborough be closed for engineering works.

East Coast have been borrowing HSTs from EMT on both a planned and short notice basis.

In terms of moving the stock to the right places needed by EMT the Northern drivers aren't on strike.

Where there is a will there is a way.

Northern drivers won't have the route knowledge that EMT require. Only a small amount of Northern drivers have route knowledge for South of Sheffield, and that is only to Nottingham, so for Norwich and even Robin Hood Line services, it would be a non-starter.

 

[DanTrain]

Northern drivers won't have the route knowledge that EMT require. Only a small amount of Northern drivers have route knowledge for South of Sheffield, and that is only to Nottingham, so for Norwich and even Robin Hood Line services, it would be a non-starter.

Yes but that 'small number' of Northern driver's could shift the units to Nottingham, where EMT can take over. Northern don't need all their units on a Sunday either, so there's no huge rush to return them.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Northern drivers won't have the route knowledge that EMT require. Only a small amount of Northern drivers have route knowledge for South of Sheffield, and that is only to Nottingham, so for Norwich and even Robin Hood Line services, it would be a non-starter.

EMT, surely, only need a few units, not Northern drivers to drive them if they are a type EMT already use. The example given by dk1 shows that TOCs already use each other's trains from time to time. The Northern drivers just need to get them somewhere EMT can collect them from. As dk1 also points out, his Norwich example is something that was formally established, so ad hoc arrangements are going to be more tricky, but that need not be insurmountable.

 

[trentside]

EMT, surely, only need a few units, not Northern drivers to drive them if they are a type EMT already use. The example given by dk1 shows that TOCs already use each other's trains from time to time. The Northern drivers just need to get them somewhere EMT can collect them from. As dk1 also points out, his Norwich example is something that was formally established, so ad hoc arrangements are going to be more tricky, but that need not be insurmountable.

Currently EMT drivers based at Lincoln are moving Northern 153s to and from Cleethorpes for the Barton services. It is certainly do-able, but tends to only be done for long term workings like this, I believe the Cleethorpes workings were initially delayed while a safety case was worked on and under no circumstances can the Northern units on the evening working (morning is ECS) be used in passenger service, they have to be locked out. In an ideal world borrowing extra units would be easy, but various modifications by different TOCs over the years mean that a Northern 153 and an EMT 153 are different, and this means crews have to be correctly briefed before they can work them.

 

[Failed Unit]

Currently EMT drivers based at Lincoln are moving Northern 153s to and from Cleethorpes for the Barton services. It is certainly do-able, but tends to only be done for long term workings like this, I believe the Cleethorpes workings were initially delayed while a safety case was worked on and under no circumstances can the Northern units on the evening working (morning is ECS) be used in passenger service, they have to be locked out. In an ideal world borrowing extra units would be easy, but various modifications by different TOCs over the years mean that a Northern 153 and an EMT 153 are different, and this means crews have to be correctly briefed before they can work them.

I did wonder about that, as it could be very simplistic but EMT could use some of Northern's 158s to make Liverpool - Norwich all 6 coach (at least between Liverpool and Nottingham) and even use some of the 156s / 153s to strengthen other areas of overlap.

However if the this would need new traction knowledge clearly thisis a non-starter.

 

[Class 170101]

Northern has Class 153s and Class 158s like EMT. However as mentioned above there could be internal differences which may mean another operator cannot use them without re-training.

 

[marcouk2]

Plus if Northern start supplying units to other TOCs on the same routes then the RMT would probably start complaining about strike breaking by EMT

 

[yorksrob]

Plus if Northern start supplying units to other TOCs on the same routes then the RMT would probably start complaining about strike breaking by EMT

That would be stretching credibility, given it would be an EMT train run by EMT staff.

DMU's can't go on strike.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Plus if Northern start supplying units to other TOCs on the same routes then the RMT would probably start complaining about strike breaking by EMT

EMT staff,even those who have joined the RMT are under no obligational pressure by the RMT strikes on Northern, just because Arriva employees aren't happy at present, EMT Guards are perfectly happy with their management, as I have heard first hand from EMT Senior Conductors.

 

[marcouk2]

EMT staff,even those who have joined the RMT are under no obligational pressure by the RMT strikes on Northern, just because Arriva employees aren't happy at present, EMT Guards are perfectly happy with their management, as I have heard first hand from EMT Senior Conductors.

But if EMT use Northern units to cover for Northern trains not running because of strike action then I think the RMT might have something to say; plus if as you say industrial relations at EMT are good then they'll not be wanting to upset the applecart.

 

[Failed Unit]

But if EMT use Northern units to cover for Northern trains not running because of strike action then I think the RMT might have something to say; plus if as you say industrial relations at EMT are good then they'll not be wanting to upset the applecart.

I would be surprised if Northern members would be upset if EMT provided extra capacity on trains they would be running anyway.

Northern gets no benefit out of this.

The dispute is with the Northern management not the passengers so I struggle to see why RMT members would be upset passengers are able to get a seat between Nottingham and Sheffield for example where both companies operate. Northern won’t be getting a share of the revenue and stations such as Dronfield still won’t be served.

Really we don’t have many routes that overlap anyway.

Where do we draw the line, as in strikes it is normal for operators on parallel routes to accept tickets, if the parallel route is reasonable. I am not aware this has ever caused issues in the past. I remember strikes in the past central trains (as was) accepted northern spirit (as was) passengers between Grimsby and London / Birmingham via Lincoln. I don’t remember this upsetting unions at Northern spirit.

 

[Qwerty133]

I suppose the possible complaint would be in the payment received by Northern for the use of stock.
I'm not even sure why it'd need any northern drivers to do anymore than a few shunts around Sheffield station if it was planned properly and the capacity was used on the Liverpool to Norwich (so the stock stabled at Sheffield the evening before was suitable for use by EMT).

 

[yorksrob]

I suppose the possible complaint would be in the payment received by Northern for the use of stock.
I'm not even sure why it'd need any northern drivers to do anymore than a few shunts around Sheffield station if it was planned properly and the capacity was used on the Liverpool to Norwich (so the stock stabled at Sheffield the evening before was suitable for use by EMT).

Perhaps if EMT payed the leasing cost that Northern would have paid, for that day.

 

[LowLevel]

EMT staff,even those who have joined the RMT are under no obligational pressure by the RMT strikes on Northern, just because Arriva employees aren't happy at present, EMT Guards are perfectly happy with their management, as I have heard first hand from EMT Senior Conductors.

Perfectly happy is stretching things a bit. Things are ticking along without too many problems though. EMT conductors have been subject to some pretty harsh industrial relations tactics over the last 10 years and I'm not sure the Stagecoach impact on the grade will ever be forgiven let alone remembered fondly. They're the worst paid of the ex Central Trains senior conductors and have had their conditions damaged to boot.

 

[SC43090]

I would be surprised if Northern members would be upset if EMT provided extra capacity on trains they would be running anyway.

Northern gets no benefit out of this.

The dispute is with the Northern management not the passengers so I struggle to see why RMT members would be upset passengers are able to get a seat between Nottingham and Sheffield for example where both companies operate. Northern won’t be getting a share of the revenue and stations such as Dronfield still won’t be served.

Really we don’t have many routes that overlap anyway.

Where do we draw the line, as in strikes it is normal for operators on parallel routes to accept tickets, if the parallel route is reasonable. I am not aware this has ever caused issues in the past. I remember strikes in the past central trains (as was) accepted northern spirit (as was) passengers between Grimsby and London / Birmingham via Lincoln. I don’t remember this upsetting unions at Northern spirit.

You quote the dispute is with the Northern management.... Its with the Government who are pulling all the strings..... Northern management are just poodles to failing Grayling & is minnows in the DFT......

SC43090

 

[M60lad]

Seems that despite TPE running from Sheffield-Manchester yesterday there were still the odd problems as 18:11 departure from Sheffield was delayed apparently due to desruptive passengers, it arrived at 18:07 and didn't depart until 18:42 which meant the 18:41 EMT departure from Sheffield-Lime Street followed it all the way to Manchester although the EMT was virtually running to time

 

[Failed Unit]

You quote the dispute is with the Northern management.... Its with the Government who are pulling all the strings..... Northern management are just poodles to failing Grayling & is minnows in the DFT......

SC43090

Maybe - but t isn't with the passengers - which if EMT could use Northern stock would ultimatimately benefit.