East Midlands Trains HST

[Kier]

I know the HSTs on the GWML and ECML are due to be withdrawn and replaced with brand new trains in the next year. Are there any plans to do the same on the MML? The Nottingham - London fast service surely warrants a better train?

 

[yorksrob]

The Nottingham - London fast service surely warrants a better train?

Good luck finding one.

 

[Domh245]

Longer term (ie new franchise) then yes they are expected to be replaced with bi-modes - so probably near identical stock to those being rolled out on the GWML. Short term, everyone is running around panicking slightly because they aren't compliant with PRM so you can't use them after 2020 - and there currently proposals being floated to use Mk4 carriages in place of the Mk3s, as being discussed in this thread

 

[Qwerty133]

I know the HSTs on the GWML and ECML are due to be withdrawn and replaced with brand new trains in the next year. Are there any plans to do the same on the MML? The Nottingham - London fast service surely warrants a better train?

No plans for them to be replaced but they must be scrapped in 673 days time...

 

[Agent_Squash]

No plans for them to be replaced but they must be scrapped in 673 days time...

Don't have to be scrapped - can still be PRM modified (but they won't...)

 

[NSEFAN]

Don't have to be scrapped - can still be PRM modified (but they won't...)

Or you just get the DfT to sign a bit of paper to let them continue with their current doors until replacement stock arrives.

 

[Qwerty133]

Or you just get the DfT to sign a bit of paper to let them continue with their current doors until replacement stock arrives.

This attitude is way to prevalent in the rail industry and the sooner the DfT refuse to sign such a bit of paper the sooner certain railway managers may actually do some useful work.

 

[Domh245]

Or you just get the DfT to sign a bit of paper to let them continue with their current doors until replacement stock arrives.

Hopefully the bit of paper would also cover all of the other non PRM compliant aspects such as a lack of Universal Toilet, PIS, etc, not just the doors!

 

[IKB]

Longer term (ie new franchise) then yes they are expected to be replaced with bi-modes - so probably near identical stock to those being rolled out on the GWML. Short term, everyone is running around panicking slightly because they aren't compliant with PRM so you can't use them after 2020 - and there currently proposals being floated to use Mk4 carriages in place of the Mk3s, as being discussed in this thread

The various rolling stock options for the MML are analysed in the latest Modern Railways by Ian Walmsley. Worth a read.

The MK3 don't necessarily have to be scrapped come 2020 if not modified in time. They could be granted a derogation (time limited I suspect).

 

[IKB]

This attitude is way to prevalent in the rail industry and the sooner the DfT refuse to sign such a bit of paper the sooner certain railway managers may actually do some useful work.

Thats too simplistic a way to look at it. The sooner the HSTs go, the sooner you get lumbered with Bi-modes for 30 years. Would it not be better for the MML to hedge it bets for a while longer. If the economics for overhead electrification look healthier in five to ten years time, then there lies the opportunity to go fully electric.

 

[43096]

This attitude is way to prevalent in the rail industry and the sooner the DfT refuse to sign such a bit of paper the sooner certain railway managers may actually do some useful work.

Clearly you don't understand the problem, then. DfT ARE the problem - and there are railway industry managers coming up with plans to dig the industry out of the hole. Whether DfT understand and sign-off on the solution is another thing entirely.

 

[cactustwirly]

The Nottingham - London fast service surely warrants a better train?

No it doesn't!
The HST is without a doubt the best intercity train.
Ok they're getting a bit long in the tooth, and the refurbishment done by EMT was pretty poor!
But not one train built since, has had the same level of comfort or ambience.

 

[43096]

the refurbishment done by EMT was pretty poor!

No it wasn't. It's all opinions....

 

[antharro]

+1 for what @cactustwirly said about HSTs being the best IC train. Can't comment on the EMT refurb, never been on one afaik!

 

[bb21]

I for one actively avoid Meridians on my commute where I can, until they fix their phone reception onboard.

Meridians are also far too cramped for my liking. HSTs any day.

 

[D5645]

I always use the Nottingham to London fast services whenever I travel to London.

Meridians are OK but the HST sets are quiet and comfortable.

 

[cactustwirly]

No it wasn't. It's all opinions....

Well it was the bare minimum replacement of seat covers and carpets, with the toilets left untouched from MML days.

 

[yorksrob]

Thats too simplistic a way to look at it. The sooner the HSTs go, the sooner you get lumbered with Bi-modes for 30 years. Would it not be better for the MML to hedge it bets for a while longer. If the economics for overhead electrification look healthier in five to ten years time, then there lies the opportunity to go fully electric.

Indeed, far better to let the HST's keep a low profile whilst 'Bi-mode fest' runs it's course, then when we work out that they're not the answer to every problem in the world, we can look at continuing the electrification.

Well it was the bare minimum replacement of seat covers and carpets, with the toilets left untouched from MML days.

And as a consequence, even the toilets are the best on the network. No annoying gadgety taps, electric door locks that you're never sure are locked and hand dryers that don't work.

 

[cactustwirly]

Indeed, far better to let the HST's keep a low profile whilst 'Bi-mode fest' runs it's course, then when we work out that they're not the answer to every problem in the world, we can look at continuing the electrification.



And as a consequence, even the toilets are the best on the network. No annoying gadgety taps, electric door locks that you're never sure are locked and hand dryers that don't work.

Have you been on a GWR HST? Their toilets are much nicer, with a proper tap!

 

[whhistle]

No it wasn't. It's all opinions....

While [your statement about opinions is] true, compared with other refurbishments, it's clear to see which company put more money into it.

I'm increasingly seeing stagecoach barely investing in anything and trying to extract as much money as possible. They don't bother changing things that many other TOCs have but simply continued using the same contractors as Midland Mainline. In contrast, GWR and VWC have changed their uniforms at least twice throughout their franchise. EMT haven't - it's the same design as MML, purely different colours.

 

[fishquinn]

I agree about HSTs being the best intercity train for sure. I love the EMT interior (because of the seating layout and the seats themselves) but I'm not keen on the toilets as they seem so dark inside. I do agree about the 'proper' taps though!

Have you been on a GWR HST? Their toilets are much nicer, with a proper tap!

They definitely aren't proper taps. I'd say 50% of the time it takes me over 15 seconds to get anything out of the tap on the GWR ones and even then it's sometimes just a dribble. I've never had that problem with EMT 'floor stud' ones.

 

[43096]

While [your statement about opinions is] true, compared with other refurbishments, it's clear to see which company put more money into it.

I'm increasingly seeing stagecoach barely investing in anything and trying to extract as much money as possible. They don't bother changing things that many other TOCs have but simply continued using the same contractors as Midland Mainline. In contrast, GWR and VWC have changed their uniforms at least twice throughout their franchise. EMT haven't - it's the same design as MML, purely different colours.

So you want change for change's sake?

 

[yorksrob]

Have you been on a GWR HST? Their toilets are much nicer, with a proper tap!

I have. I still prefer the EMT version. I find the floor stud more reliable generally.

 

[yorksrob]

While [your statement about opinions is] true, compared with other refurbishments, it's clear to see which company put more money into it.

I'm increasingly seeing stagecoach barely investing in anything and trying to extract as much money as possible. They don't bother changing things that many other TOCs have but simply continued using the same contractors as Midland Mainline. In contrast, GWR and VWC have changed their uniforms at least twice throughout their franchise. EMT haven't - it's the same design as MML, purely different colours.

More money thrown at something doesn't necessarily equal better.

 

[mushroomchow]

If they could magic more Meridians out of thin air to take over the HST services I wouldn't mind too much, but it's not possible. Everything else realistically available is inadequate, and the MML is a completely beast to the GWML with a far longer stretch of pretty much permanently non-electrified line and electric power speed restrictions south of Bedford, so scepticism of the appropriateness of bi-modes performance-wise is rightfully high.

Honestly, even if it means locking the bogs out of service, I'd rather we just stick with the HSTs for another few years until something half decent is there to replace them. Now EMT have taken the plunge on MTU units from Grand Central, I can see the Mk. 4 plan holding more sway if they can get a slice of the GWR cascade.

 

[43096]

Honestly, even if it means locking the bogs out of service, I'd rather we just stick with the HSTs for another few years until something half decent is there to replace them.

How many more times........ You can't make a train PRM compliant by just "locking the bogs out of use".

Now EMT have taken the plunge on MTU units from Grand Central, I can see the Mk. 4 plan holding more sway if they can get a slice of the GWR cascade.

How does the engine type in the power car make any difference to the Mark 4 plan?

 

[whhistle]

So you want change for change's sake?

That's not what it's about.
A fresh look in terms of livery, a change of uniform, perhaps even chuck a few good things staff way would certainly do wonders for staff motivation... just as they need it with the franchise renewal around the corner.

More money thrown at something doesn't necessarily equal better.

Perhaps.
But like mobile phone companies, utility companies, insurance, entertainment (TV), internet - I've only stuck with one company once. It's usually always better to switch.
Plus, using cast-offs from First Scotrail, a banking company that just so happens to be opposite their own head office and not having any sort of "account" for stationary - it's all just a very weird set up.

 

[yorksrob]

That's not what it's about.
A fresh look in terms of livery, a change of uniform, perhaps even chuck a few good things staff way would certainly do wonders for staff motivation... just as they need it with the franchise renewal around the corner.


Perhaps.
But like mobile phone companies, utility companies, insurance, entertainment (TV), internet - I've only stuck with one company once. It's usually always better to switch.
Plus, using cast-offs from First Scotrail, a banking company that just so happens to be opposite their own head office and not having any sort of "account" for stationary - it's all just a very weird set up.

But switching is all about 'brand' and 'contract', which is more closely replicated by the reorganisation and refranchising process, something the MML has gone through at least three times since the HST's arrived there.

We're talking about the 'hardware' I.e. the trains, in which case functionality and comfort are far more important considerations. In terms of functionality, the HST's aren't quite up there with new trains, in terms of acceleration, but they still perform perfectly well in terms of speed and reliability. In terms of comfort, they remain unsurpassed.

 

[nat67]

Don't have to be scrapped - can still be PRM modified (but they won't...)

It could work, but VP185's need to come out and be replaced with new MTU engines most probably and cost of plug doors DFT would say no as they are DAFT.

 

[cactustwirly]

It could work, but VP185's need to come out and be replaced with new MTU engines most probably and cost of plug doors DFT would say no as they are DAFT.

No, the VP185s don't need replacing, it's the plug doors & other PRM bits that are the problem.
I suppose EMT could nick some GWR Coach C's which already have the PRM compliant loo.