East Midlands Trains, their C158s are excellent, but their Meridians absolute c**p ?

[Peter Mugridge]

I'd agree it's reasonable - and nobody will be surprised to find me in the panoramic carriage.

Hopefully they'll even fit them out with a few airline type seats for me as well.

 

[Greenback]

I have no problem with airline seats - me and the wife prefer them when travelling on our own,l but they are good if you are travelling in a group! Again, we should have both, and some single seats (I believe there are some in FC on Pendolino's?) for anti socail people who prefer to have a sleep (tongue in cheek)

 

[mallard]

All this talk over windows vs. safety seems to be missing the point. Are Pendolinos significantly more crashworthy than other trains with bigger windows?

Evidence suggests that they are better than BR carriage designs, but how about compared to a Voyager or Meridian? What about compared to a Desiro, Electrostar or Adelante? Or for that matter foreign trains such as the TGV or ICE3/Velaro? Since high-speed crashes are, thankfully, very rare there are very few incidents to form a comparison on.

The TGV accident record (found here) seems to suggest a comparable level of safety, with only 2 fatalities (excluding terrorist actions) in their entire history. The German safety record is marred by the Eschede disaster, but the major cause of casualties here was a concrete bridge collapsing onto the train, something that is probably beyond the structural strength of any train!

Personally, unless anybody has evidence otherwise (more than just conjecture based on the size of the windows - structural rigidity is far more complex than that), I see no reason to feel any less safe traveling on a Voyager or Merdian than a Pendolino.

 

[ChrisCooper]

Just to bring something a little light hearted to this discussion, I was today watching the second episode of the (great) TV series Firefly, which involves a robbery on a futuristic hover train. Said train has windows which must have been no more than a few inches high at about eye level for standing passengers. Apparently in the future things are going to get much worse
That said, the train was travelling at very high speed through a deserty wasteland on a crudely teraformed planet, so not exactly the most stunning views anyway. Could also say that by standing up a passenger could at least get a clear view straight out of the window, which is more than can be said for some of the worst seats on a Pendolino (or even many better trains).

 

[pemma]

I think the bottom line with Pendolino seating is journey times on London services have been reduced signifcantly meaning many people could spend longer on a Desiro than a Pendolino, so while the mk3s may have been slightly comforier you don't have to spend as long on them.

One criticism I have with pendolinos is due to the amount of light coming through the windows being limited Virgin need to ensure faulty interior lights are replaced faster.

 

[Justin Smith]

I think the bottom line with Pendolino seating is journey times on London services have been reduced signifcantly meaning many people could spend longer on a Desiro than a Pendolino, so while the mk3s may have been slightly comforier you don't have to spend as long on them.

One criticism I have with pendolinos is due to the amount of light coming through the windows being limited Virgin need to ensure faulty interior lights are replaced faster.

I never thought I'd say this, but, to be frank I'd prefer the train from, say, Manchester to London took another 5 or even 10 minutes but was more comfortable and a bit cheaper.
That is a measure of how much I hate the bleedin' Pendolinos, unless you get one of the decent seats, and I don't care what the Virgin PR machine says, there aren't that many of those, not in second class anyway.

Interesting point, just how much time from Manchester to London would a Pendolino gain on another train which had exactly the same power to weight and on the same (expensively upgraded) infrastructure, but didn't tilt and had reasonable size windows.......

 

[Geezertronic]

That is a measure of how much I hate the bleedin' Pendolinos...

I think that comment alone just says everything about your contribution to this thread... your anti-Pendolino stance is getting tiresome now. If you wanted to take an alternative route to avoid them, then that is your choice. Any normal day to day commuter would want to get from A to B as quick as possible.

 

[Justin Smith]

I think that comment alone just says everything about your contribution to this thread... your anti-Pendolino stance is getting tiresome now. If you wanted to take an alternative route to avoid them, then that is your choice. Any normal day to day commuter would want to get from A to B as quick as possible.

I'm entitled to my point of view, as are you.
I accept that others agree with your point of view, but, equally, some also agree with mine.

Interesting point, just how much time from Manchester to London would a Pendolino gain on another train which had exactly the same power to weight and on the same (expensively upgraded) infrastructure, but didn't tilt and had reasonable size windows.......

I've just spoken with John Heaton from the Railway Performance Society, and he reckons that a tilt/125mph Pendolino saves about 6 to 7 minutes from Manchester to Euston over a non tilting/110mph Pendolino.

Apparently there are a few stretches on that WCML route where non tilting rolling stock (e.g. class 220s) can actually do 125mph, one is just North of Macclesfield tunnel.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I've just spoken with John Heaton from the Railway Performance Society, and he reckons that a tilt/125mph Pendolino saves about 6 to 7 minutes from Manchester to Euston over a non tilting/110mph Pendolino.

It isn't just the absolute time but also the diagramming... if every jounrey in a diagram is 6-7 minutes longer, the train may do several returns in a day and lose the best part of an hour. The net effect would be more train sets needed, or less services in the day.

That was the whole point of VHF wasn't it? Short turnaround and optimal use of stock and pathing?

 

[Geezertronic]

Lets do a proper comparison between the "Pretendolino" Class 90+Mk3+DVT set and a Pendolino Class 390 set between Euston and Tamworth since the 90+Mk3+DVT is the only train that VirginTrains have that doesn't tilt (assuming tilt is enabled on the Class 221 Super Voyagers):

Euston-Tamworth: Pendolino = 1hr 2mins (based on the 17:57 EUS-GLC service)
Euston-Tamworth: "Pretendolino" = 1hr 18mins (based on the Fri 18:46)

VT schedule a 16 minute difference between Euston and Tamworth, I assume mainly because the Class 90 can only do a top speed of 110mph. You can mention the Class 91 if you like but they don't run on the WCML. You can also mention non tilting stock doing 125mph but since VirginTrains do not have any, that is irrelevant (again assuming tilt is enabled on the Class 221's)

When the "Pretendolino" set covers the EUS-BHM route (which is the only route it covers replacing a Pendolino), it is not uncommon to see it arrive late into Coventry, Birmingham International and Birmingham New Street.

 

[Justin Smith]

Lets do a proper comparison between the "Pretendolino" Class 90+Mk3+DVT set and a Pendolino Class 390 set between Euston and Tamworth since the 90+Mk3+DVT is the only train that VirginTrains have that doesn't tilt (assuming tilt is enabled on the Class 221 Super Voyagers):

Euston-Tamworth: Pendolino = 1hr 2mins (based on the 17:57 EUS-GLC service)
Euston-Tamworth: "Pretendolino" = 1hr 18mins (based on the Fri 18:46)

VT schedule a 16 minute difference between Euston and Tamworth, I assume mainly because the Class 90 can only do a top speed of 110mph. You can mention the Class 91 if you like but they don't run on the WCML. You can also mention non tilting stock doing 125mph but since VirginTrains do not have any, that is irrelevant (again assuming tilt is enabled on the Class 221's)

When the "Pretendolino" set covers the EUS-BHM route (which is the only route it covers replacing a Pendolino), it is not uncommon to see it arrive late into Coventry, Birmingham International and Birmingham New Street.

Comparing a Pendolino with a C90+Mk3s is not a fair comparison.
What I'm doing is speculating whether tilt is neccessary or not, particulary as it has been implied on these pages that one can only have tilt if one puts up with minute windows, we'll forget tilting C221 Voyagers just for the sake of the argument.
What I was comparing was a non tilting EMU of the same power to weight as a Pendolino.
Rather conveniently we do in fact have just such a yardstick to compare, it's a Pendolino with inoperable tilt !
And comparing those two gives a saving of 6 to 7 minutes.
Personally I'd say that was worth having, but not if it means I'd have a good chance of spending the whole journey looking at a plastic window pillar.
Others may disagree and they're entitled to their opinion, though they should recognise that many people hold the opposite view.

I'd still like to know how many of those who don't think decent size unobstructed windows on a train are that important would be prepared to swap seats with me if I had a crap seat and they had a good one.
I bet none would.
Which, I think, speaks volumes.

That was the whole point of VHF wasn't it? Short turnaround and optimal use of stock and pathing?

The problem with short turn arounds, as with "just in time" supply chains, is that if anything goes wrong there's no slack in the system.
That's why I probably keep in far too much stock in my aerial sales business, but at least it means that if the supplier hasn't got a product in I still have. It's very rare we lose an order through lack of stock, very rare indeed.

 

[455driver]

Comparing a Pendolino with a C90+Mk3s is not a fair comparison.
Rather conveniently we do in fact have just such a yardstick to compare, it's a Pendolino with inoperable tilt !
And comparing those two gives a saving of 6 to 7 minutes.
.

If you were to remove all the tilt gubbins off a pendo and so save quite a bit of weight, I reckon the time difference would only be 3-4 minutes.

Just compare the weights of a 220 and 221 although that is probably an extreme example.

 

[Geezertronic]

Comparing a Pendolino with a C90+Mk3s is not a fair comparison.

It's a fair comparison because it's comparing the current sets that VirginTrains have

Rather conveniently we do in fact have just such a yardstick to compare, it's a Pendolino with inoperable tilt !

I would surmise that if a Pendolino had an inoperable tilt, then they would either take it out of service or sit it on the EUS-BHM route where it would loose the least amount of time

And comparing those two gives a saving of 6 to 7 minutes.

And the extra 6-7 minutes on a non-tilt set would screw up the current scheduled timetable and a rewritten timetable would result in either less services or less recovery time

Personally I'd say that was worth having, but not if it means I'd have a good chance of spending the whole journey looking at a plastic window pillar.
Others may disagree and they're entitled to their opinion, though they should recognise that many people hold the opposite view.

I'd still like to know how many of those who don't think decent size unobstructed windows on a train are that important would be prepared to swap seats with me if I had a crap seat and they had a good one.
I bet none would.
Which, I think, speaks volumes.

There's no volume at all in that comment. If I have a booked seat and you didn't bother and have to take what you get on the day, give me one good reason why I should swap with you? Most recently, the booking engine has given me a seat classed as Retricted View and I've been able to see out the window perfectly fine. You're more than entitled to your own point of view but some of your reasoning (especially around safety etc...) make no sense. The Pendolino's are what they are and they have transformed services on the WCML. When the extra sets and vehicles get built, will they change the interior design? We'll have to wait and see...

The problem with short turn arounds, as with "just in time" supply chains, is that if anything goes wrong there's no slack in the system.
That's why I probably keep in far too much stock in my aerial sales business, but at least it means that if the supplier hasn't got a product in I still have. It's very rare we lose an order through lack of stock, very rare indeed.

The turn around times are not too bad, the only times services are severly delayed are when the WCML South screws up big time. I somewhere that on an average working day, VirginTrains needs 47 out of the 52 Pendolino's operating to be able to perform the scheduled VHF service

 

[WillPS]

This is such a tiresome discussion.

 

[Justin Smith]

It's a fair comparison because it's comparing the current sets that VirginTrains have.

You're missing my point, which is that when Virgin ordered the Pendolinos they had the choice of what to buy then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would surmise that if a Pendolino had an inoperable tilt, then they would either take it out of service or sit it on the EUS-BHM route where it would loose the least amount of time.

You're wrong.
John Heaton's timings were done Euston to Manchester on a Pendolino with inoperable tilt.
A Pendolino with inoperable tilt can still maintain schedule provided it does not suffer many TSRs or other checks, in fact the run John timed (with a Pendolino with inoperable tilt) arrived on time, though he admits that it was more or less a clear run.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There's no volume at all in that comment. If I have a booked seat and you didn't bother and have to take what you get on the day, give me one good reason why I should swap with you ?

Because you said you, and many/most other passengers weren`t bothered about a seat with a decent view.
That being the case why should you be bothered about swapping it ?
Remember the Buddhist concept of Karma, every positive action adds to the total sum of goodness in the world.
If you`re not bothered about the view and I am that`s a win/win situation, you`ve increased the total sum of goodness in the world, at no cost to yourself !
What`s not to like ?
Unless, of course, you really would prefer a seat with a view.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The Pendolino's are what they are and they have transformed services on the WCML. When the extra sets and vehicles get built, will they change the interior design? We'll have to wait and see...

I don`t think they`ll change the interior design, quite apart from anything else that`d mean admitting the initial layout was a poor design.The time when they could have improved the seat/window alignment/view at reasonable cost would have been at the design stage, now it really would be expensive.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This is such a tiresome discussion.

No it isn`t.

 

[TMTSTMTS]

It definitely is tiresome, you're in the minority anyway on this and you refuse to accept anyone elses point of view as valid. Just give up and keep your feelings about this to yourself before you drive everyone else insane please?

 

[Justin Smith]

It definitely is tiresome, you're in the minority anyway on this and you refuse to accept anyone elses point of view as valid. Just give up and keep your feelings about this to yourself before you drive everyone else insane please?

My position is that most people want a decent view out of the window.
I believe that`s a reasonable thing to expect, and in that I don`t believe I am in a minority.
In fact I`m sure I`m not.
What are you complaining about anyway ? You don`t have to read any particular thread on this, or any other, forum.

 

[MCR247]

My position is that most people want a decent view out of the window.
I believe that`s a reasonable thing to expect, and in that I don`t believe I am in a minority.
In fact I`m sure I`m not.
What are you complaining about anyway ? You don`t have to read any particular thread on this, or any other, forum.

View or Seat. I know which I'd choose. It is tiresome. And why can't you find the right bloody comma??

 

[Geezertronic]

And I thought this thread was put to bed. Justin, you continue thinking you are the only one whose point of view is correct because I am done arguing with you. It is hard to have a sensible conversation with someone who considers they are always right, and someone whose first hand knowledge of the train in question revolves around half a dozen journeys on it.

I have first hand experience of the comments I have made regardless of what John Heaton says, and you can kiss my ass if you think I would give up a booked seat (with a view or not), all that Karma crap just proves there's plenty of nuts left in the world.

Listen to others:

This is such a tiresome discussion.

[/SIGNING OFF THREAD]

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm entitled to my point of view, as are you.
I accept that others agree with your point of view, but, equally, some also agree with mine.



I've just spoken with John Heaton from the Railway Performance Society, and he reckons that a tilt/125mph Pendolino saves about 6 to 7 minutes from Manchester to Euston over a non tilting/110mph Pendolino.

Apparently there are a few stretches on that WCML route where non tilting rolling stock (e.g. class 220s) can actually do 125mph, one is just North of Macclesfield tunnel.

May you should have compared Preston to Scotland journeys where the non-tilting 185s can match the pendo for time. I have never known anyone try to get a 185 to avoid a pendo. 1st class passengers tend to go for pendos to have breakfast. Most journeys if you want to avoid a pendo you can. Doesn't seem to happen as virgin still have more passengers between London and Crewe the London midland. Last time I checked virgin still outnumber chiltern to Birmingham.

 

[Greenback]

This has indeed become a rather tiresome argument that isn't really going anywhere!

Justin may be in a minority, he may not, I don't know, but he is not alone in his views. However, there is little that can be done except giving TOC's feedback so that hopefully future designs cna take all views into account. The TOC's will have some idea how many of their customers find this aspect of travel important compared to, say, seat back TV's!

 

[WillPS]

Glad others agree!

 

[Justin Smith]

you can kiss my ass if you think I would give up a booked seat with a view [/SIGNING OFF THREAD]

Ahh, so you are bothered, so am I, at least we agree on something !

 

[TMTSTMTS]

He actually said "you can kiss my ass if you think I would give up a booked seat (with a view or not)" he didn't agree with you don't worry.

 

[EM2]

My position is that most people want a decent view out of the window.

Most people do get a decent view out of the window. There a few seats that don't as we all know, and those people that don't mind not having a view will happily sit there.

 

[thefab444]

Ahh, so you are bothered, so am I, at least we agree on something !

Editing quotes... that, my dear sir, is low, very low.

 

[Justin Smith]

Editing quotes... that, my dear sir, is low, very low.

all that Karma crap just proves there's plenty of nuts left in the world.

To be frank, anyone that regards the general principle of helping people as being "crap", is asking for it.

Most people do get a decent view out of the window. There a few seats that don't as we all know, and those people that don't mind not having a view will happily sit there.

Interestingly, and relevantly for the purpose of this thread, I travelled from Sheffield to St Pancras today by EMT Meridian.
Some of their seats also have absolutely no view out of the window, including, ironically, the one I'd booked as a "window seat" ! ? ! That's selling under false pretences for a start, I'd call it a "pillar seat" myself because that's all you could bleedin' well see.
Further, contrary to what was implied earlier, the seats with the best views were the ones which were taken first.
Lastly, when all the other seats had gone, two chaps took the windowless seat in front of mine and were taking the p**s out of the "excellent view".
And they didn't look, or sound, like train enthusiasts to me.
QED

 

[tbtc]

Interestingly

No, its not

 

[Geezertronic]

[/SIGNING OFF THREAD]

I lied...

Editing quotes... that, my dear sir, is low, very low.

Justin's not even bothered to comment on why he decided to edit my quote to suit his own words.... shame he was caught with his hand in the cookie jar

To be frank, anyone that regards the general principle of helping people as being "crap", is asking for it.

I don't give to receive, and anyone that does is giving for the wrong reasons.

No, its not

Agreed, Justin will make his way around all of the stock running around on the railways and find fault with all of it... Pendolino's, Voyagers, Meridians, what next?

 

[Justin Smith]

Justin's not even bothered to comment on why he decided to edit my quote to suit his own words.... shame he was caught with his hand in the cookie jar

I was taking the p**s.
The fact is that I cannot imagine anyone, assuming they`re not blind, is really not bothered if there`s (effectively) no window to the outside world at their seat. Quite apart from anything, if people weren`t bothered why would Virgin, on their own website, actually indicate which seats have a restricted view ? ! ?
In fact you only have to put "Pendolino restricted view" into Google and loads of people are complainning about it on Forums and Blogs (what ever they are.....) !
I wonder whether this is "Forum argument" where people just argue for the sake of it.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I don't give to receive, and anyone that does is giving for the wrong reasons.

That's to fundamentally misunderstand what I said, or what the Buddhist religion stands for, not that I'm a Buddhist anyway.
It means, basically, if everyone is nicer to each other, the world is a better place for everyone. If people are friendly and helpful to you, then you get in the habit of doing the same, to everyone, not just to those who have helped you.
Surely that's a "motherhood and apple pie" statement, i.e. one that everyone would agree with.