East Midlands Trains, their C158s are excellent, but their Meridians absolute c**p ?

[asylumxl]

Like previously mentioned, during non busy times, restricted view seats are rarely occupied. Like you say, nobody has to read this thread if they don't want to, then the same goes for these seats.

Fact is that long distance commuters to London will have a better choice of seats. Those who end up with less choice/standing will be on there for less time.

Horses for courses.

 

[Failed Unit]

I was taking the p**s.
The fact is that I cannot imagine anyone, assuming they're not blind, is really not bothered if there's (effectively) no window to the outside world at their seat. Quite apart from anything, if people weren't bothered why would Virgin, on their own website, actually indicate which seats have a restricted view ? ! ?
In fact you only have to put "Pendolino restricted view" into Google and loads of people are complainning about it on Forums and Blogs (what ever they are.....) !
I wonder whether this is "Forum argument" where people just argue for the sake of it.

For the record I am not a fan of the pendolino, first class is the only way to travel on the things. I tend to use them when they are fairly quite so can always find a seat with a view, but I do find them appearing to be very Cramped (I know the leg room is fine), but it tilt profile along with the super structure makes it that way. The Voyager doesn't feel as bad, but its profile isn't as bad.

I normally have a choice on what train I am using when travelling on the WCML and normally going North of Edinburgh. I personally pick the trains as follows. I prefer travelling via Edinburgh as if I miss the connection in Glasgow I have 1 hour to wait whereas there are normally 2 trains per hour from Edinburgh. I think I actually like the 185 if I travelling via the WCML.

I tend to find when going to London the East Coast normally wins on both price and speed (even if not by much) so I have never had the how much will you pay more to avoid a pendo -v- mk4 debate. A friend of mine who is not a train fan by any means. Thier choice was AP tickets via East Coast to Stirling or Pendo on a Super-off peak return (about the same cost). They opted for the AP's as they prefer the East Coast route. That however covers many reason not just the pendo, the fact that you can use credit cards at the buffet and they prefer the food on offer was also considered! Along with a Waverley is easier to use than walking between Central and Queen Street. (Yes is is not hard but you still have 3 roads to cross )

 

[Geezertronic]

I was taking the p**s.

It wasn't funny...

The fact is that I cannot imagine anyone, assuming they're not blind, is really not bothered if there's (effectively) no window to the outside world at their seat. Quite apart from anything, if people weren't bothered why would Virgin, on their own website, actually indicate which seats have a restricted view ? ! ?

Being bothered about it and going on like a stuck record are two completely separate things. The fact is during the peaks and on a full service, the Restricted View seats are as full as the rest of the train. A restricted view seat is better than no seat at all.

In fact you only have to put "Pendolino restricted view" into Google and loads of people are complainning about it on Forums and Blogs (what ever they are.....) !

That doesn't mean anything in my opinion. People moan for the sake of moaning no matter what the subject matter. Take the England keeper Robert Green as an example: he made an error against the USA and "everybody" is critical of that mistake, but he pulled off a blinding save in the 2nd half and that is not as bigger deal as the mistake he made or the misses by Hesky that could have actually won England the game against the USA.

I wonder whether this is "Forum argument" where people just argue for the sake of it.

Pot, kettle...

That's to fundamentally misunderstand what I said, or what the Buddhist religion stands for, not that I'm a Buddhist anyway.
It means, basically, if everyone is nicer to each other, the world is a better place for everyone. If people are friendly and helpful to you, then you get in the habit of doing the same, to everyone, not just to those who have helped you.
Surely that's a "motherhood and apple pie" statement, i.e. one that everyone would agree with.

That's all well and good but is the real world really like that?

 

[MCR247]

Justin Smith please just answer these questions

1) Do you realise that by making all seats have a view, you would lose quite a few seats?
2) So then, would you rather stand from Sheffield to London so some moaning git can see out of the window while he is listening to music/reading a magasine
3) You really travelled from Sheffield to London just for this thread?
If so then I think you may have attachment issues.

 

[Failed Unit]

Justin Smith please just answer these questions

1) Do you realise that by making all seats have a view, you would lose quite a few seats?
2) So then, would you rather stand from Sheffield to London so some moaning git can see out of the window while he is listening to music/reading a magasine
3) You really travelled from Sheffield to London just for this thread?
If so then I think you may have attachment issues.

Hey I travelled on a Pendo just for this thread

OK I just got an 1742 Preston - Glasgow rather than the 1752 Preston - Edinburgh service to get to Perth.... Does that count as having attachment issues

 

[MCR247]

I wasn't being serious, but he made a journey that he wouldn't have made if it wasn't for this thread. Whereas you got a 10minutes earlier train

I should probably stop digging

 

[Geezertronic]

I wasn't being serious, but he made a journey that he wouldn't have made if it wasn't for this thread. Whereas you got a 10minutes earlier train

I'm getting withdrawl symptoms, I haven't had to travel down to London for over a week now... help!!! I need my train fix

I should probably stop digging

I reckon I'm close to Australia

 

[Aictos]

Thing is I prefer the unrefurbished East Coast HSTs as I found them to be more comfortable yet you won't see me moaning about their conversions to Mallard interiors nor will you see me moan about the 91s and the Mk4s being converted to Mallard interiors even though they lost decent fold down seats in the vestibule and replaced with a bench which can't even be used.

Main point is, I accept things happen for a reason like the fact that 313s will probably be around for another 20 years but you won't see me moping around, there is nothing wrong with the 222s on the Midland Mainline besides in a perfect world the line would get 8 car 390s and the 222s going to Cross Country.

I had to use a pendo last year to get to Preston, much faster then having to worry about changing at Leeds etc...

 

[Justin Smith]

People moan for the sake of moaning

I'm not sure I agree with you on that one. Generally there is something wrong else they wouldn't bother moaning about it, it's easier not to bother.
When it comes to complaining this is even more the case. In my experience most people don't complain even when they're right.

I've got an amusing story about a model of cable reel holder (like this one) that has a bearing on the centre mounting spindle. It's an absolutely crap idea. Not only is the reel holder weaker and more expensive by incorporating the bearing, but, when it's used, after you pulled off the length of cable you want the cable reel just keeps on turning and spools yards and yards of cable onto the floor. I was so offended by how absolutely crap this design was I took the trouble to phone up the manufacturer !
Their response ?
"No one has ever complained before (so it must be fine)".
And you know what, they're still making that cable reel holder with a centre bearing ! ! !
Not ours, we welded up the bearing on both the ones we bought........
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It wasn't funny...

Yeah, sorry about that, it wasn't that funny, unlike my other jokes, obviously.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's all well and good but is the real world really like that?

But it won't get any better unless people make it.
It isn't always like that anyway.
Shetland and Taiwan are the places I've been to with the friendliest most helpful people. Plus the people you meet at most National Trust properties for some reason !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Justin Smith please just answer these questions

1) Do you realise that by making all seats have a view, you would lose quite a few seats?
2) So then, would you rather stand from Sheffield to London so some moaning git can see out of the window while he is listening to music/reading a magasine
3) You really travelled from Sheffield to London just for this thread?
If so then I think you may have attachment issues.

You really travelled from Sheffield to London just for this thread?
When did I say that ?

Do you realise that by making all seats have a view, you would lose quite a few seats?
Not if they made the window spacings fit the seat spacings, i.e. different ones for 1st and 2nd class, which they did on BR Mk2 coaches.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Main point is, I accept things happen for a reason

Why do you accept that ?
I don't accept it.
See above story of the cable reel holder.....
Incidentally, I'm no hypocrite here, if any of my customers complains of anything I assume that if they've complained there might actually be a better way of doing it. Usually, not always but most of the time, they're right and I alter my companies methods to incorporate the idea.
Furthermore, generally, if one person complains there's a good chance there are hundreds, or thousands, of others who don't like something but can't be arsed to bother complaining.

 

[MCR247]

Not if they made the window spacings fit the seat spacings, i.e. different ones for 1st and 2nd class, which they did on BR Mk2 coaches.

Can you just tell me how you know that is possible on a Meridian? I mean you're comparing them to BR Mk2, the most modern and crash worthy coaches!

 

[tbtc]

I've got an amusing story about a model of cable reel holder (like this one) that has a bearing on the centre mounting spindle. It's an absolutely crap idea. Not only is the reel holder weaker and more expensive by incorporating the bearing, but, when it's used, after you pulled off the length of cable you want the cable reel just keeps on turning and spools yards and yards of cable onto the floor. I was so offended by how absolutely crap this design was I took the trouble to phone up the manufacturer !
Their response ?
"No one has ever complained before (so it must be fine)".

No manufacturer is ever going to say "yeah, we've had hundreds of complaints, its a crap product, we should never have made it" are they? :roll:

Trust me; I work in Complaints - you never admit to having other issues like this (unless there's been a product recall)

 

[ainsworth74]

Can you just tell me how you know that is possible on a Meridian? I mean you're comparing them to BR Mk2, the most modern and crash worthy coaches!

Ah but we've been down this road before (possibly on this thread!), Justin feels that the peak of safety was achieved with the BR Mk3 and that the latest generation of trains like the Meridians are too safe and compromise comfort too much. So we should go back to designs like the Mk3. All I can say is I'm glad that Grayrigg was a 390 and not an 87+Mk2s/Mk3s.

 

[Justin Smith]

No manufacturer is ever going to say "yeah, we've had hundreds of complaints, its a crap product, we should never have made it" are they? :roll:

Trust me; I work in Complaints - you never admit to having other issues like this (unless there's been a product recall)

I used to think that when companies told me "nobody else has complained" they were lying, but there are companies where I deal with the top man on a friendly basis and he has told me that on occasions I`ve pointed things out to him that "no body has ever complained about before".
I`m definitely of the view that most people don`t bother complaining because it`s too much aggro or too much time or they don`t think they`ll be listened too anyway, etc etc etc.
I`m very much of an idealist and I hate to see something that`s "wrong", particularly, but not exclusively, when it`s me that`s been affected. However I have an outstanding issue with East Coast Trains where they owe me £22, but I`m really having to force myself to bother contacting them in writing etc etc as they`re demanding.
A better example was when I was served "Toffee" (that`s coffee and tea in the same cup.....) by EMT, I couldn`t be arsed to complain despite, or possibly because of, the fact that had happened to me before on that same route, albeit Midland Mainline then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ah but we've been down this road before (possibly on this thread!), Justin feels that the peak of safety was achieved with the BR Mk3 and that the latest generation of trains like the Meridians are too safe and compromise comfort too much. So we should go back to designs like the Mk3. All I can say is I'm glad that Grayrigg was a 390 and not an 87+Mk2s/Mk3s.

I`ll take my chances in a Mk3 thanks, even though it`s so dangerous, 1 in a billion chance of death or serious injury ? I`d be s*****g myself with fear for the whole journey though..........
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can you just tell me how you know that is possible on a Meridian? I mean you're comparing them to BR Mk2, the most modern and crash worthy coaches!

Why should altering the window spacings not be possible ?
Quite apart from anything else I`d have thought that smaller windows (required to align the seats and pillars in second class) and more window pillars would make the coach even stronger.
Having said the above, the pillars are so bleedin` wide that it`d only be a partial solution anyway.
Answer, narrower pillars !
Oh I forgot, that`d make the coaches death traps......
Right, what we really want is even wider pillars !

 

[Lampshade]

Why don't they design a train with the seat layout first, then design the window spacing/pillars? :?

 

[Failed Unit]

Why don't they design a train with the seat layout first, then design the window spacing/pillars? :?

Compare 170s and see why that wouldn't work. Spacing on a scotrail unit is better than an xc version. Grand centrals windows all line up. Basically a tocs seating pitch would screw it up when they decide to cram more seats in.

 

[90019]

Why should altering the window spacings not be possible ?

Because that would require a complete rebuild of the structure of the train.

 

[Aictos]

And in the current times is just not viable, passengers need seats which is why there's overcrowding, what Justin Smith is suggesting will just make it worse.

I know the Grand Central HSTs have seats lining up to the windows but do they see packed trains with every seat taken and passengers sitting in the vestibule because there are no seats? Probably not, I know their services can be busy but you can still get seats.

Suggest that to a train packed full of passenegers and you're very likely to get lynched!!!

 

[455driver]

Not forgetting the mark 2F open firsts (42 seats/ 7 windows) that were converted to open standards by cramming in 80? seats including some tip up seats in the vestibule, now not all those had views out of the windows.
Or the mark 2D TSOs (64 seats/ 8 windows) converted to TSRBs and then had first class seats fitted to make them RFBs, so first class seat spacing in a body-shell with 8 windows.
Or the HST trailers that have had their interiors swapped from First class to Standard (or vice versa), some of them several times-
42158 to 41177 to 42158 or
42310 to 41188 to 42310 or
42114 to 41175 to 42354 or
42142 to 42352 to 41176.

The point I am making is that coaches can have their interiors changed quite often so a "standard" body shell makes more sense.

 

[Justin Smith]

Because that would require a complete rebuild of the structure of the train.

I'm not suggesting they do that with the present stock, it would obviously be impractical.
What I'm saying is the train companies should strongly near in mind that people want a view when it comes to constructing the next lot of stock.
There's no reason why minimising restricted view seats should mean less seats if the design is right in the first place.
Did I read some where that Chris Green was convinced by the argument that passengers like to see out when they were planning the 165/166s and insisted on trying to minimise the number of seats with restricted views ?
One things for sure, if the train companies read this thread, particularly as, in my experience, people hear what they want to hear, they definitely won't bother stressing the Chris Green view........

 

[Big Chris]

as a note to moderators, this isn't talking about EMT anymore and the title is somwhat misleading, could the window arguement be moved elsewhere or the thread renamed, may I suggest "About 10 posts related to comparing EMT 158's and Meridian's and a further 17or so pages of bull s**t about window sizes"

 

[Justin Smith]

Not forgetting the mark 2F open firsts (42 seats/ 7 windows) that were converted to open standards by cramming in (80 ?) seats

80 seats in a 20m coach, sounds like purgatory to me, for anything but dwarfs that is.
Incidentally, is saying dwarfs politically correct these days ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

a further 17or so pages of bull s**t about window sizes"

That ought to ensure the next lot of stock built is as bad, or worse, as recent stuff then.......

 

[Geezertronic]

That ought to ensure the next lot of stock built is as bad, or worse, as recent stuff then.......

In your opinion... and don't we all know about it. You're like a dog with a bone - you must be a nightmare to know.

Regardless of what you say, the current stock is here to stay. There is nothing wrong with the design of the Class 390s, 22x or any other stock because at the end of the day they get me from A to B quickly and safely and that is all I care about. If you bothered to listen to other people, you'd find that others don't care either. You can go on about window alignment and pillar size all you like, it doesn't change anything and won't affect future designs since the Class 390s especially are a specific design

You'll probably also find that when (or if) the extra 390s get ordered including the coaches to lengthen existing sets, I doubt the specs will change - no matter what you say.

 

[Justin Smith]

There is nothing wrong with the design of the Class 390s, 22x

Don't agree with you, obviously.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If you bothered to listen to other people, you'd find that others don't care either.

If you bothered to listen to other people (both on this thread and in other places) you'd find that others do care, as well.

It's interesting to note that I'm prepared to accept that some people may not be as bothered by severely restricted views as I am, although I don't believe that anyone is totally unbothered by it, unless they're blind of course.

You on the other hand appear to be saying, your quote above, that nobody else cares about restricted views.

Who is being dogmatic here then ?

 

[Failed Unit]

There is nothing wrong with the design of the Class 390s, 22x or any other stock because at the end of the day they get me from A to B quickly and safely and that is all I care about.

Mate that is a sweeping statement which is almost as bad as Justin. Yes they get you safely from A-B which maybe all you care about, but many others don't like them hence thier poor why they were rated lower than the mk4 in the passenger focus survey.

The design was a comprimise between structual safety and passenger comfort, the structual integraty had to win otherwise they would have never got on the network. From that point of view it is a good design, however you can also argue that not giving every passenger a view is a bad design if that is what is most important to the passenger.

If I am travelling from London - Scotland I always use east coast as it ticks all my boxes, comfortable train and value for money. Virgin is always more expensive so they lose my business for that main reason. I don't know how much more I would pay not to travel on the pendo, I have never really had that question, but I am one that likes the mk4's much better so if the price was exactly the same or even if East coast we £5 more expensive they would still get my business. I won't go as far as saying the pendo is a bad design, but I would agree it is not the most comfortable for the passenger - but what else could we really do for a tilt profiled train on the UK loading gauge!

 

[Justin Smith]

You'll probably also find that when (or if) the extra 390s get ordered including the coaches to lengthen existing sets, I doubt the specs will change - no matter what you say.

You`re not reading my posts carefully enough, I said I doubted very much that they`d alter the deign for any additional class 390 rolling stock.


As I said earlier, train companies, and manufacturers for that matter, will hear what they want to hear. If it`s more trouble to design/manufacture stock with decent views, esp for second class passengers, they certainly won`t bother if they can quote Geezertronic and Big Chris et al.
So, if the next generation of stock is as bad as the present generation, and you end up looking at 20" of grey plastic all the way from Manchester to London, blame Geezertronic and Big Chris et al. I tried for you, it`s not my fault, honestly !

 

[Geezertronic]

Mate that is a sweeping statement which is almost as bad as Justin. Yes they get you safely from A-B which maybe all you care about, but many others don't like them hence thier poor why they were rated lower than the mk4 in the passenger focus survey.

To be honest, I should really stop replying to this thread because at the end of the day I am taking the Justin stance and not caring about anyone elses opinion but my own now...

 

[Justin Smith]

To be honest, I should really stop replying to this thread because at the end of the day I am taking the Justin stance and not caring about anyone elses opinion but my own now...

My quote from above :

It's interesting to note that I'm prepared to accept that some people may not be as bothered by severely restricted views as I am, although I don't believe that anyone is totally unbothered by it, unless they're blind of course.

Nuff said.

 

[Geezertronic]

It's interesting to note that I'm prepared to accept that some people may not be as bothered by severely restricted views as I am, although I don't believe that anyone is totally unbothered by it, unless they're blind of course

80 seats in a 20m coach, sounds like purgatory to me, for anything but dwarfs that is

Where are these blind dwarfs then?

 

[Failed Unit]

To be honest, I should really stop replying to this thread because at the end of the day I am taking the Justin stance and not caring about anyone elses opinion but my own now...

This is going around in circles, I think most people would agree that the pendo is not the perfect train, but to be honest what is the perfect train? Does it even exist? But you want to travel from Oxenholme - London, are you really going to go by coach or car just because it may be a Pendo. You may not like looking at plastic but for me the solution is simple, upgrade to 1st (if travelling in advanced). I know their are a lot of limited view seats on all trains, I don't think I have ever had to do a 4 hour journey on one. If it is that full I am probably sat in an asile seat anyway!

 

[Justin Smith]

Where are these blind dwarfs then?

They`ll be the ones who are perfectly happy to sit in a restricted view seat on a Mk2 coach with 80 seats in it............