East West and Northumberland rail lines get £794m boost

[21C101]

When the East bit is done I think it would make more sense to run Oxford-MK, Cambridge-Bedford-MK, and Marylebone, High Wycombe, Aylesbury MK than run through. By that time HS2 will be open and there will be more paths between Bletchley and MK.

I also think a direct route to Cambridge from Bedford is a mistake, the rejected option for a curve at Millbrook onto the MML to Luton Airport then new line to the top end of the Hertford Loop at Stevenage then onto Cambridge via Royston, would have given far more journey and interchange opportunities.

A Cambridge, Royston, Baldock, Letchworth, Hitchin, Stevenage (intercity interchange) Luton Airport (intercity interchange), Luton, Flitwick (for Bedford), Woburn Sands, Ridgmont, Bletchley, MK train..

is going to carry far more passengers than a

Cambridge, Camborne, Interchange north of Sandy with no intercities calling, Bedford, Ridgmont, Woburn Sands, Bletchley, Winslow, Bicester, Oxford train.

Yes the direct route is quicker but most of the usage will be intermediate journeys and in any case the time spent grinding around at 10mph in the Bedford St Johns area will wipe out a lot of the gains the direct route has over the rejected alternative via Luton and Stevenage.

The latter would also have given new journey opportunities like Thameslinks running London-St Albans, Stevenage, Peterborough or MK to Hertford and Stanstead and the possibility of an underground station directly underneath the main terminal at Luton Airport.

 

[A0wen]

I also think a direct route to Cambridge from Bedford is a mistake, the rejected option for a curve at Millbrook onto the MML to Luton Airport then new line to the top end of the Hertford Loop at Stevenage then onto Cambridge via Royston, would have given far more journey and interchange opportunities.

A Cambridge, Royston, Baldock, Letchworth, Hitchin, Stevenage (intercity interchange) Luton Airport (intercity interchange), Luton, Flitwick (for Bedford), Woburn Sands, Ridgmont, Bletchley, MK train..

is going to carry far more passengers than a

Cambridge, Camborne, Interchange north of Sandy with no intercities calling, Bedford, Ridgmont, Woburn Sands, Bletchley, Winslow, Bicester, Oxford train.

Yes the direct route is quicker but most of the usage will be intermediate journeys and in any case the time spent grinding around at 10mph in the Bedford St Johns area will wipe out a lot of the gains the direct route has over the rejected alternative via Luton and Stevenage.

The latter would also have given new journey opportunities like Thameslinks running London-St Albans, Stevenage, Peterborough or MK to Hertford and Stanstead and the possibility of an underground station directly underneath the main terminal at Luton Airport.

There are a multitude of reasons why they haven't done that - mainly because it's barking at the moon mad.

More practically - there's limited capacity on the MML between Bedford and Luton, building a line between Luton and Stevenage would have been almost impossible given the gradients needed plus finding a route that even vaguely made sense, there is limite capacity on the ECML between Stevenage and Hitchin and even less between Hitchin and Cambridge, particularly for 'fast' paths.

That's before you include the fact you'll have killed any sensible journey time to/from Cambridge. The new formation will probably have a journey time of 40 ish minutes - whereas Flitwick - Luton Airport would take 15-20 minutes (it's 10 mins non-stop for an EMR between those points), Stevenage - Luton would easily be another 15 mins and Stevenage to Cambridge won't be less than 30 mins.

So all in all, it would increase that leg of the EWR journey time by at least 50%, increase congestion on the MML and ECML and require a particularly difficult new route between Luton and Stevenage (and before you say 'oh that looks easy enough on an OS map' - I actually *know* the area, there genuinely isn't a simple route) which would probably cost more than the new route out of Bedford will cost.

And as for MK - Hertford - Stansted.... can I have some of what you're smoking please? Most people I know in the MK area when they fly go from Luton, Birmingham or one of the main London airports (Heathrow or Gatwick).

 

[Bald Rick]

There seems to be an awful lot of negativity on this thread about the announcements. Perhaps I’ll call in a few favours and get both jobs stopped.

Whilst re-openings are good, spending seed corn on Ashington and the overwhelming bulk of the money not far north of London doesn't seem like levelling up the north.

What would you have announced then?

You would be surprised its not as expensive as you think, other than getting set up to do things like switching the traction power off routinely every night.

It is. Particularly on the WCML and ECML.

There is an awful lot you can get done in a series of three hour windows if you organise it properly. Its only things like major track renewals and signalling commissionings that need all day or weekend blocks.

Very expensively. All those staff being paid 8hours night shift for about an hour’s work...

Forutnately I haven't had to deal with any of the delivery units or anyone else in Railtrack or it's successors since 2003.

Ah. That explains it. A lot has changed in nearly 20 years.

building a line between Luton and Stevenage would have been almost impossible given the gradients needed

Being a regular cyclist in that part of the world, this is spot on.

 

[A0wen]

There seems to be an awful lot of negativity on this thread about the announcements. Perhaps I’ll call in a few favours and get both jobs stopped.

Stop it ! I nearly spat out my drink when laughing when I saw this post.

This post is deserving of being pinned at the top of this thread !

 

[Djgr]

The two universities are rivals - I would be surprised if there was that much academic travel between the two by whichever route. A bit like saying Weston-Super-Mare and Bournemouth are both seaside resorts so there must be lots of travel between them!

There is specific regular travel at student level between the universities that I am aware of and that is in University Challenge type quiz leagues.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I really don't understand why people are being so negative about this. This is some of the best news I've heard over the past year.

 

[Djgr]

I cannot see any 'academic' needing to travel between Oxford and Cambridge- they even deny the existence of each other Don's are 'experts and are more likely to relate to the USA, and by Zoom or Skype or Teams or via a conference in Seoul. So maybe a trip to Heathrow (via Old Oak in due course?), or Oxford London Airport for a private jet, once a month, rather short of 2tph.
As regards tourists, how many old stone quads can one take? A visitor to Oxford is far more likely to visit Bicester Village (and back to London, Marylebone maybe, having travelled from China for their dozen pairs of shoes in a new suitcase, or travel on to Stratford on Avon for the afternoon and theatre before returning to London. I don't know about Cambridge; I have lived in Oxford!! I took the X5 Oxford-Cambridge one day, it felt like all day. Maybe MK the centre of England's Economic Heartland will generate 'business' (or tourism?)

Oxford is (pre-Covid) uncomfortably overwhelmed with tourists. Cambridge slightly less, which is ironic because it's (in my opinion!) tons nicer.

 

[A0wen]

I really don't understand why people are being so negative about this. This is some of the best news I've heard over the past year.

I suspect there are a few reasons - it doesn't include their 'pet' project, whatever happens it won't be quick enough, it's costing "far too much", and the total amount committed is "far too little".

Happy to take bets on any of the above

Cambridge slightly less, which is ironic because it's (in my opinion!) tons nicer.

Thing is Oxford's on the tourist 'London > Cotswolds > Stratford-on-Avon' trail - whereas Cambridge isn't part of anything similar.

 

[Gathursty]

I've not taken the X5 or know it's route but off the top of my head if I was driving from Oxford to Cambridge and not using the M25, I'd be thinking of the A34, M40, A43 and either via A421/A428 (Milton Keynes) or via Northampton and the A14. No wonder people don't think to travel between the two cities.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Ignoring COVID, getting sizeable blocks of the WCML south of Milton Keynes is neither cheap nor easy!

Indeed and works at Bletchley will govern the ultimate hook up but they have a couple more Xmases to go for. Part of the reason its not cheap is because Sch4 is set very high for the premier route but its an artificial cost that inflates project costs and now the passenger business is in taxpayer hands its somewhat irrelevant. For freight many years ago when i disrupted FL from Felixstowe we had to pay the road haulage costs as they didn't participate in Sch4 i believe but might be wrong.

Very expensively. All those staff being paid 8hours night shift for about an hour’s work...

Indeed which is why East-West Rail should be more cost effective to deliver than works on the operational railway.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the Ashington reopening, is it intended to be done from the Morpeth or Northumberland Park side?

Although it is possible for a loop service (although the trains would not continually be in orbit), I do not envisage a slightly tweaked version of the 1949-2009 incarnation of London Underground's Circle Line as it would have to share the mainline with the XC, TP, and the London trains.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Regarding the Ashington reopening, is it intended to be done from the Morpeth or Northumberland Park side?

Although it is possible for a loop service (although the trains would not continually be in orbit), I do not envisage a slightly tweaked version of the 1949-2009 incarnation of London Underground's Circle Line as it would have to share the mainline with the XC, TP, and the London trains.

Northumberland Pk route

 

[adrock1976]

Northumberland Pk route

Many thanks.

 

[Bald Rick]

I really don't understand why people are being so negative about this. This is some of the best news I've heard over the past year.

For the best part of a decade, this forum has been full of ‘why aren’t any lines in England being reopened, the Scots and Welsh can do it, so why not here’

Announcements made of lines being reopened.

Cue much moaning.

Can we start a campaign for a forum emoji that broadly translates to lifting your shoulders roughly to the level of your ears, raising your arms - palms up - to the same level, frowning in a perplexed manner and saying ... “Que?”

 

[Peregrine 4903]

For the best part of a decade, this forum has been full of ‘why aren’t any lines in England being reopened, the Scots and Welsh can do it, so why not here’

Announcements made of lines being reopened.

Cue much moaning.

Can we start a campaign for a forum emoji that broadly translates to lifting your shoulders roughly to the level of your ears, raising your arms - palms up - to the same level, frowning in a perplexed manner and saying ... “Que?”

I feel like even if the government of invested record ammounts of money exclusively for the UK railways some people on this forum would still find something to complain about it. Like the money should be invested in busses instead, and then if the government did that people would complain that the money should have been invested in the railways and the cycle continues.

 

[21C101]

It is. Particularly on the WCML and ECML.

Pity about the Southern, Merseyrail etc.

The ECML and WCML are the two lines that you are least likely to ever be able to introduce engineering hours on to. The WCML has a procession of overnight freights plus sleepers and the ECML four track sections have up up down down making taking out a pair of lines every other night very difficult without resignalling for extensive bidirectional running.

 

[The Planner]

Indeed and works at Bletchley will govern the ultimate hook up but they have a couple more Xmases to go for. Part of the reason its not cheap is because Sch4 is set very high for the premier route but its an artificial cost that inflates project costs and now the passenger business is in taxpayer hands its somewhat irrelevant. For freight many years ago when i disrupted FL from Felixstowe we had to pay the road haulage costs as they didn't participate in Sch4 i believe but might be wrong.

Indeed which is why East-West Rail should be more cost effective to deliver than works on the operational railway.

They will be after every bank holiday they can get, not just Xmas. Freight do get Sch4, but it dealt with separately to the passenger stuff.

 

[21C101]

Being a regular cyclist in that part of the world, this is spot on.

Yes its hilly but its only a few miles and not exactly the cumbrian mountains that the Settle and Carlisle line goes through.

 

[Bald Rick]

Pity about the Southern, Merseyrail etc.

The ECML and WCML are the two lines that you are least likely to ever be able to introduce engineering hours on to.

But there are standard hours, on both of them.

 

[The Planner]

Pity about the Southern, Merseyrail etc.

The ECML and WCML are the two lines that you are least likely to ever be able to introduce engineering hours on to.

You get 2000-1200 2-track Saturday night/Sunday morning, 2100-0600 Sun/Monday 2-track and 2220- 0620 2-track south of Hanslope midweeks on the WCML

 

[edwin_m]

I really don't understand why people are being so negative about this. This is some of the best news I've heard over the past year.

I think we're so used to the politicians spinning and re-announcing stuff that when a genuine announcement is made of something new, people find it hard to believe.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes its hilly but its only a few miles and not exactly the cumbrian mountains that the Settle and Carlisle line goes through.

Which required many tunnels and viaducts. As would be required here.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

I think we're so used to the politicians spinning and re-announcing stuff that when a genuine announcement is made of something new, people find it hard to believe.

I understand that as well. I just think that means we should celebrate even more when things go ahead or are given partial approval. Particularly at the minute when there is little to cheer about.

 

[21C101]

But there are standard hours, on both of them.

These are white periods when you are able to book a possession with relative ease, but still a long time in advance?

Not proper engineering hours where the line is shut and traction isolated every night or fixed nights every week whether anyone is working or not and facilities in place that work can be booked with multiple worksites in different places (including overlapping) and undertaken safely at a few days notice?

 

[PG]

I've not taken the X5 or know it's route but off the top of my head if I was driving from Oxford to Cambridge and not using the M25, I'd be thinking of the A34, M40, A43 and either via A421/A428 (Milton Keynes) or via Northampton and the A14. No wonder people don't think to travel between the two cities.

Thats like asking for directions and getting the response: "Well I wouldn't start from here!"...

 

[21C101]

Which required many tunnels and viaducts. As would be required here.

and?

In any case much more severe gradients couldbe tolerated than the steam era S&C could tolerate, especially if it was a.c. electrified, which wouldn't be difficult for 8-10 miles of railway.

I suspect it was the nimby factor that was the biggest hurdle, not the gradients.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not proper engineering hours where the line is shut and traction isolated every night or fixed nights every week whether anyone is working or not and facilities in place that work can be booked with multiple worksites in different places (including overlapping) at a few days notice?

There is nowhere on the NR Network that has that type of arrangement.

 

[21C101]

There is nowhere on the NR Network that has that type of arrangement.

Yes, that is the whole point.

 

[Bald Rick]

and?

In any case much more severe gradients couldbe tolerated than the steam era S&C could tolerate, especially if it was a.c. electrified, which wouldn't be difficult for 8-10 miles of railway.

And... that makes it much more expensive. For example, to develop an alignment serving Luton Airport Parkway and Stevenage means building 11km of line that would be almost entirely in tunnel, deep cutting or Viaduct. Plus three grade separated junctions. That would be £1.5bn plus. And it doesn’t solve the issue of capacity from Bedford to Luton, or Stevenage to Cambridge.

Yes, that is the whole point.

And?

 

[PG]

Can we start a campaign for a forum emoji that broadly translates to lifting your shoulders roughly to the level of your ears, raising your arms - palms up - to the same level, frowning in a perplexed manner and saying ... “Que?”

Presumably the code would be :Manuel: