East West Rail (EWR) mentioned in Budget 2024: what should happen next?

[WolvertonWorks]

Milton Keynes is full of NIMBYs, which is quite paradoxical! Basically, once their house was built it should have stopped, it appears.

I can entirely see why a village resident might object to a city springing up around them, though. The character of somewhere like Bicester has changed totally from small market town to something much bigger. (Bicester is probably more what it'd be like). Having said that, MK's road network means those villages are actually quite unspoilt as there's basically no through traffic - Woughton on the Green is perhaps one of the best examples of this.

The MK development corporation did a big exercise where they looked at all the existing villages in the designated area and for each of them came up with a plan which kept the old core of the village and then built a spine road around this core so that traffic to the surrounding newly built up area didn't need to pass through the core. Great Linford is one of the best examples as the old road through the centre of the village that used to lead to roads to Willen and Woolstone is now a dead end, the two roads becoming redways so only available to pedestrians and cyclists.

The new developments that spring up along E-W rail need the modern equivalent of development corporations to plan them, not rely on developers coming along and putting in planning applications to build housing etc without a master plan for the whole.

 

[BrianW]

The MK development corporation did a big exercise where they looked at all the existing villages in the designated area and for each of them came up with a plan which kept the old core of the village and then built a spine road around this core so that traffic to the surrounding newly built up area didn't need to pass through the core. Great Linford is one of the best examples as the old road through the centre of the village that used to lead to roads to Willen and Woolstone is now a dead end, the two roads becoming redways so only available to pedestrians and cyclists.

The new developments that spring up along E-W rail need the modern equivalent of development corporations to plan them, not rely on developers coming along and putting in planning applications to build housing etc without a master plan for the whole.

Development Corps attracted architects, planners, people wanting to do their bit to change the world, leave a mark; not the usual 'development control' blockers.

 

[RUK]

This article in The Guardian mentions that possible cuts to East-West Rail have been submitted by the Department for Transport to the Treasury: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ty-in-spring-statement?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

The chancellor’s [Spring] statement next week was originally supposed to involve a straightforward update to the official economic forecasts from the Office for Budget Responsibility (OBR).…

The worsening outlook has left the chancellor looking for additional money to avoid missing her fiscal targets.…

As part of the spending review process, departments have been asked to model cuts of up to 20% of day-to-day spending.…

The scenario is so severe that departments are having to plan for cuts to projects which have recently been announced by this government.

The Department for Transport, for example, has submitted plans for cuts to the proposed rail line between Oxford and Cambridge, which Reeves herself confirmed funding for just two months ago..…

 

[Bletchleyite]

This article in The Guardian mentions that possible cuts to East-West Rail have been submitted by the Department for Transport to the Treasury: https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ty-in-spring-statement?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Perhaps she should change her fiscal targets, then. You can't have growth without investment. Borrow for capital investment to create income - that's basically what any business does! It's borrowing for day to day "business as usual" that we need to be avoiding.

Hopefully an HS2 style yo-yo can be avoided, as that just throws money up the wall.

 

[geoffk]

Perhaps she should change her fiscal targets, then. You can't have growth without investment. Borrow for capital investment to create income - that's basically what any business does! It's borrowing for day to day "business as usual" that we need to be avoiding.

Hopefully an HS2 style yo-yo can be avoided, as that just throws money up the wall.

Yes she should. Goodbye Portishead then? (apols for digression).

 

[Trainman40083]

Perhaps she should change her fiscal targets, then. You can't have growth without investment. Borrow for capital investment to create income - that's basically what any business does! It's borrowing for day to day "business as usual" that we need to be avoiding.

Hopefully an HS2 style yo-yo can be avoided, as that just throws money up the wall.

I am glad you said that. You can tax people/business more, you can cut spending or (if anyone is prepared to lend money) you can borrow it from ????? . But if those "investors" do not see a good return on investment, interest rates on gilts etc will be higher, making projects more expensive. Capital investment if spent well, can cause growth, leading to more investment, more spend, more tax paid etc. Maybe the Government doesn't know how?

 

[nanstallon]

What a pathetic country this is. If you start a project, finish it! The French, the Chinese and everybody else must be laughing at Britain.

 

[HSTEd]

Ultimately, the growth of day-to-day spending is consuming capital budgets all over government.

It's going to get worse, in all likelihood.

 

[RUK]

What cuts can they even make? I can’t imagine that they won’t proceed with the central section to Cambridge? Delay the completion time of the overall project so the costs hit slower over time, as with HS2? Have fewer stations, or build/complete them more slowly? There’s already no electrification, so single-tracking?

 

[Trainman40083]

What cuts can they even make? I can’t imagine that they won’t proceed with the central section to Cambridge? Delay the completion time of the overall project so the costs hit slower over time, as with HS2? Have fewer stations, or build/complete them more slowly? There’s already no electrification, so single-tracking?

Maybe they will finish the Western section at Bedford and the Eastern section at the ECML and whinge when the project does not delivered the desired outcome (because of the gap, it became a white elephant).

 

[camflyer]

Ultimately, the growth of day-to-day spending is consuming capital budgets all over government.

It's going to get worse, in all likelihood.

So much for "growth" being the government's supposed number one priority.

 

[Magdalia]

What cuts can they even make? I can’t imagine that they won’t proceed with the central section to Cambridge?

Cambridge is the nearest this government has to a goose that will lay the economic growth golden egg.

There are various ways to cut East West Rail costs and still get to Cambridge, for example:

• 4 tracks instead of 6 through Bedford
• take out the freight loops
• no grade separation at Hauxton
• no south end bridge at Cambridge
• no Cherry Hinton turnback
• discontinuous electrification

 

[Trainman40083]

Cambridge is the nearest this government has to a goose that will lay the economic growth golden egg.

There are various ways to cut East West Rail costs and still get to Cambridge, for example:

• 4 tracks instead of 6 through Bedford
• take out the freight loops
• no grade separation at Hauxton
• no south end bridge at Cambridge
• no Cherry Hinton turnback
• discontinuous electrification

Yes, then at a later date, they can do them incurring more cost and disruption.

 

[camflyer]

Cambridge is the nearest this government has to a goose that will lay the economic growth golden egg.

There are various ways to cut East West Rail costs and still get to Cambridge, for example:

• 4 tracks instead of 6 through Bedford
• take out the freight loops
• no grade separation at Hauxton
• no south end bridge at Cambridge
• no Cherry Hinton turnback
• discontinuous electrification

Which is exactly the kind of piecemeal descoping which we saw from the previous government.

Not building a second footbridge at Cambridge is hardly going to solve the country's economic problems.

 

[Trainman40083]

Which is exactly the kind of piecemeal descoping which we saw from the previous government.

Not building a second footbridge at Cambridge is hardly going to solve the country's economic problems.

No it won't. Maybe Cambridge will see far more passengers, leading to controlled queuing.

 

[camflyer]

No it won't. Maybe Cambridge will see far more passengers, leading to controlled queuing.

The long term solution has to be a eastern entrance from Clifton Rd and the redevelopment of the industrial estate.

 

[Magdalia]

Which is exactly the kind of piecemeal descoping which we saw from the previous government.

This is not piecemeal descoping. The Department for Transport will have been looking at East West Rail anyway, as part of their contribution to the spending review. From the East West Rail perspective it is part of determining what will be in the statutory consultation later this year.

What is in the Guardian is a bit of news management ahead of the Chancellor's statement next week.

Yes, then at a later date, they can do them incurring more cost and disruption.

There is no more cost and disruption if it turns out that those bits did not need to be done at all.

The public finances are not in a position to fund things now that might or might not be useful in 20 years time.

 

[Trainman40083]

The long term solution has to be a eastern entrance from Clifton Rd and the redevelopment of the industrial estate.

Yes, I'd agree. Probably won't to save money and then wonder why there is overcrowding

 

[camflyer]

Yes, I'd agree. Probably won't to save money and then wonder why there is overcrowding

The main platform at Cambridge is already regularly overcrowded as everyone using the station has to pass though. They recently put in those yellow barriers but it's only going to get worse over time.

 

[fishwomp]

• 4 tracks instead of 6 through Bedford
• take out the freight loops
• no grade separation at Hauxton
• no south end bridge at Cambridge
• no Cherry Hinton turnback
• discontinuous electrification

I'd go with no electrification. Second hand rolling diesel rolling stock. You can't electrify a line that doesn't exist, so get on with building it..

The other thing would be time. Push the scheme back 4 years before approval, and it's not a problem for this government. Any delay in committing means it's a delay before hitting the government spending.

 

[Magdalia]

The other thing would be time. Push the scheme back 4 years before approval, and it's not a problem for this government. Any delay in committing means it's a delay before hitting the government spending.

I'd say the opposite. There is great urgency to get to Cambridge as quickly as possible so that economic growth there is not constrained. Every day where there is still no railway to Cambridge has a cost to the UK economy and particularly UK tax revenue.

so get on with building it.

Indeed. The "must haves" of the project are Cambridge commuting from Cambourne and Tempsford, and connectivity all along the Oxford-Cambridge corridor, and they need to happen as quickly as possible. Get rid of all of the bits that aren't essential for that.

In particular freight is not a "must have" for economic growth in Cambridge. The growth there isn't going to be things needing to be transported out on freight trains.

 

[camflyer]

I'd go with no electrification. Second hand rolling diesel rolling stock. You can't electrify a line that doesn't exist, so get on with building it..

The other thing would be time. Push the scheme back 4 years before approval, and it's not a problem for this government. Any delay in committing means it's a delay before hitting the government spending.

1) Yes, electrification from the start would be a nice to have but not essential.

2) No, there have been more than enough delays. Get on and build it.

 

[The Planner]

1) Yes, electrification from the start would be a nice to have but not essential.

2) No, there have been more than enough delays. Get on and build it.

Depends on how the rolling stock is expected to be dealt with.

 

[RUK]

I'd go with no electrification. Second hand rolling diesel rolling stock. You can't electrify a line that doesn't exist, so get on with building it..

The other thing would be time. Push the scheme back 4 years before approval, and it's not a problem for this government. Any delay in committing means it's a delay before hitting the government spending.

There already weren’t any firm plans for electrification on cost grounds, so I don’t think cutting something which already hadn’t been planned/budgeted for can really save any money. Class 196s sub-leased from West Midlands Railway to Chiltern Railways have already been designated for East-West Rail.

 

[12LDA28C]

There already weren’t any firm plans for electrification on cost grounds, so I don’t think cutting something which already hadn’t been planned/budgeted for can really save any money. Class 196s sub-leased from West Midlands Railway to Chiltern Railways have already been designated for East-West Rail.

Class 196s are in use initially yes, but there is no confirmation that they will be used for the whole route as far as Cambridge when (if) that eventually opens, just as there is no guarantee that Chiltern (or ex-Chiltern when GBR comes in) will be the designated operator for anything beyond Oxford - Milton Keynes.

 

[fishwomp]

Class 196s are in use initially yes, but there is no confirmation that they will be used for the whole route as far as Cambridge when (if) that eventually opens, just as there is no guarantee that Chiltern (or ex-Chiltern when GBR comes in) will be the designated operator for anything beyond Oxford - Milton Keynes.

Indeed, there would presumably be insufficient to operate all the services of the full route. Ideal Voyager territory, but for the fact they may be in the museum by the time the project opens.

Wondering if the Chancellor will re-announce Oxford to Milton Keynes, perhaps even with actual opening date, talk up that _again_ with a reannouncement, and mumble about nothing to see about the rest of the route.

 

[camflyer]

Indeed, there would presumably be insufficient to operate all the services of the full route. Ideal Voyager territory, but for the fact they may be in the museum by the time the project opens.

Wondering if the Chancellor will re-announce Oxford to Milton Keynes, perhaps even with actual opening date, talk up that _again_ with a reannouncement, and mumble about nothing to see about the rest of the route.

Has any new route been "re-re-announced" so many times?

 

[RUK]

Ideal Voyager territory

I read that East-West Rail was initially conceived to be a 125 m.p.h. high-speed Inter-City railway line, but that that was de-scoped fairly early on in the development process to 100 m.p.h., unfortunately.

 

[fishwomp]

I read that East-West Rail was initially conceived to be a 125 m.p.h. high-speed Inter-City railway line, but that that was de-scoped fairly early on in the development process to 100 m.p.h., unfortunately.

Given how straight the route is mostly, how new the trackbed would be, and if ETCS is standard by the time this line opens - .. that sounds like something that ought not to be too expensive to fix for a good half of the mileage. I hope.

 

[cle]

There are so many stops planned, I can’t see where 125 would be useful. Maybe a nonstop run from Bicester to Bletchley (assuming even long distance would call at the former, and have to slow at the latter)

The eastern part is windy. And Central / Marston is a joke, now 75 max. And no nonstop service planned to Bedford