East-West Rail in Westminster

[tbtc]

What rolling stock should we expect on this line? New (e.g. 172s) or cascaded? And in what amounts?

I have no idea. I don't even know who will be running the service.

But if you are going down to Ladbrokes then I'd wager they'll use two coach 165s spared from Thames Valley electrification (which would tie in with the Chiltern 165s on the Aylesbury service).

 

[Eagle]

I have no idea. I don't even know who will be running the service.

Chiltern seems most likely (with the Marston Vale stopper transferred over); don't think it would work if you gave it to London Midland as there'd be clashes with Chiltern's London-bound services at Aylesbury and Oxford.

 

[Buttsy]

The Marston Vale line would need to be checked for gauge clearance if that were the case. I'm not entirely sure if 165s can clear the route Oxford-MK if doubled as it once was as 165s have a wider gauge than 172s, though I would expect that if 165s were to be used appropriate clearance will be made Oxford-MK.

 

[tbtc]

Chiltern seems most likely (with the Marston Vale stopper transferred over); don't think it would work if you gave it to London Midland as there'd be clashes with Chiltern's London-bound services at Aylesbury and Oxford.

The Marston Vale line would need to be checked for gauge clearance if that were the case. I'm not entirely sure if 165s can clear the route Oxford-MK if doubled as it once was as 165s have a wider gauge than 172s, though I would expect that if 165s were to be used appropriate clearance will be made Oxford-MK.

My "logic" (if you can call it that) is that it'd be easier to build the "new" line to accomodate the wider "envelope" of the 165s, rather than spending money converting existing lines to accomodate them (since they have to go *somewhere*).

I agree about Chiltern being a natural home for the new services, if anywhere is, but that depends on how ambitious the plans are (e.g. will there be a token Bristol service?).

Also, I'm not sure that there is space for an additional two trains an hour from Reading to Oxford (already six trains an hour), as the 'Preferred Train Service Pattern' suggests

 

[Eagle]

Yeah, I don't see the services getting anywhere south of Oxford. If you wanted to do that you'd basically have to use the path of a current Oxford–Paddington stopper, and I'm not sure that removing a London service from Oxford/Didcot is such a good idea...

 

[Invincibles]

Yeah, I don't see the services getting anywhere south of Oxford. If you wanted to do that you'd basically have to use the path of a current Oxford–Paddington stopper, and I'm not sure that removing a London service from Oxford/Didcot is such a good idea...

What would prevent a current stopper running round that way (theoretically)?

Although there is not a chance of it, would there be an argument for having the line electrified to allow such a service to run? This would give Reading the connection with MK and Bedford, could be useful for freight from Southampton etc.

I think it is going to be an Oxford to Bedford diesel service, but there are chances for more one day (and hopefully construction can recognise that)

 

[Eagle]

What would prevent a current stopper running round that way (theoretically)?

Starting from Paddington?

 

[Invincibles]

Starting from Paddington?

I guess it would, therefore being 2 journeys joined together but offering through routes.

I strongly doubt anyone would use it as a way to get from a Marston Vale station to London (but it would mean no changes)

 

[anthony263]

I think the east west line should be electrified at least then it could be by extending the current stopping services from London Paddington to Oxford. This would need FGW getting more class 319's although there was talk of FGW getting a brand new fleet of EMU's so that more 319's could go to Northern.

As for the service to Bristol are there any spare paths between Bristol & Swindon for a hourly Bristol - Milton Keynes/Bedford service.

I know there was a suggestion of 4 tracking the route between Swindon & Didcot although perhaps extending this where possible to the junction where the line to Bath & Bristol TM branches off from the line to Bristol Parkway?

 

[The Planner]

Id imagine the gauge will be made to fit the majority of stock considering you are likely to get Voyagers along there, probably 168s and W10 container traffic. As for the Reading services, I have mentioned before on here that the bay platform at MK was originally known as the Reading Bay in the plans.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Somebody mentioned 100mph as the line speed of the new line.
The current line speed on the Marston Vale stretch is only 60mph, even after its recent upgrade, with very slow connections at each end.
This is not a problem for an all-stations stopper, but will be for a fast.

Are there any plans to lift these speeds to match that of the new line?
If not it will be very tedious Bletchley-Bedford.

 

[cle]

Also the gauge is W8 and would need to be improved to W10 in order to make a big dent in the freight world. Aren't there loads of level crossings also?

The Bicester - Bletchley route is nice and straight and bridged so shouldn't need much in the way of civils, hopefully.

 

[swt_passenger]

Also the gauge is W8 and would need to be improved to W10 in order to make a big dent in the freight world. Aren't there loads of level crossings also?

The Chiltern evidence to the EG3 TWA enquiry explains that they remove many of the level crossings anyway, and the DfT funded work on Wolvercot tunnel (phase 2A) which will be done with EG3 is designed to provide W12 gauge clearance. Any new structures needed will be clear to W12 as a matter of policy.

It would be odd if the same gauge requirements were not applied to the Bicester - Bletchley rebuild.

 

[MK Tom]

Also the gauge is W8 and would need to be improved to W10 in order to make a big dent in the freight world. Aren't there loads of level crossings also?

The Bicester - Bletchley route is nice and straight and bridged so shouldn't need much in the way of civils, hopefully.

Seeing as there are plans for an inland container port at Ridgmont I think the gauge clearance work on Bedford-Bletchley is likely to happen anyway. Redoubling at Fenny and St. Johns is a piece of proverbial cake. Removing some of the crossings is another matter - I can't see space for bridges at Fenny, Woburn or Lidlington. A bridge already exists at Ridgmont and it's a mystery to me why the level crossing is still open. The MKDC deliberately planned for a future V10 bridge at Bow Brickhill.

 

[route:oxford]

W12 is for the best.

Especially if you consider that the MOD supplies depot receives and dispatches a considerable volume by rail. Probably the reason why the DfT is funding W12 improvements to the Wolvercote tunnel.

So how will the E-W link progress?

Assuming that the first stage of Oxford-Bicester is completed as planned...

Will we see an initial stage of Aylesbury Vale Parkway or Bicester opening to Winslow?

Would there be any merit for an extension to Buckingham?

 

[The Planner]

Oxford - Bicester will be built as specced by Chiltern, ie: single line for most of it. E-W will have to fund any re-doubling work which wouldn't be horrific as the formation is there. The whole lot would get built at once and opened in one go, no point in doing stage works and I doubt Winslow would have any turnback facilities built.

Buckingham just wouldn't wash it's face when it came to BCR unless it could significantly beat the X5 at 25 minutes to MK.

 

[Philip Elliott]

Buckingham just wouldn't wash it's face when it came to BCR unless it could significantly beat the X5 at 25 minutes to MK

Buckingham on its' own wouldn't stack up but built through to Banbury via Brackley would open a lot of east-west connections. Alternatively run Buckingham as a light rail branch, possibly running onto Aylesbury (as a tram-train) via Verney Junction - Quainton Road. If we had joined up thinking, we would built lots of houses along the route to make it work.

What will happen to the surviving platforms at Claydon, Verney Junction & Swanbourne? Is there still a plan for a station at Newton Longville?

 

[MK Tom]

Is there still a plan for a station at Newton Longville?

Yes but as a developer-funded part of the Salden Chase housing development, which is the subject of a dispute between Milton Keynes and Aylesbury Vale councils. That probably won't get built for a decade or so.

 

[Philip Elliott]

If it weren't for the DDA you could use Swanbourne station without any work

 

[A0wen]

This is the kind of Keynsian investment in infrastructure that we should have had a year or more ago - good news.

Perhaps you should read some Keynes to understand why it didn't happen sooner - namely you should SAVE during boom times to SPEND during the slump. Unfortunately the first part of that equation was forgotten by the last government.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IIRC, nope.

The EWR plans needed to be ready several years ago to be factored into the design work for the Hitchin flyover.....so no.

Reminds me when I read the options study from years ago that I preferred the proposal that was marginally more expensive (~5m, IIRC), but had the grade separation south of the existing junction, meaning northbound services wouldn't have the speed improvements cancelled out by a greater distance.

...but that's because I wanted a link between Hitchin and Luton via Luton Airport, and you could have segregated the branch from the ECML entirely that way.

No chance of a Hitchin (or Stevenage) to Luton link - it's totally unnecessary and would be across Green Belt land which is undeveloped. Also the MML south of Bedford is full to capacity - there aren't any additional paths to force E-W services along.

A far better idea, which would need minimal infrastructure work, would be to send them north from Bedford to Corby and then with a curve at Manton on to Stamford and Peterborough.

Peterborough makes FAR more sense than Cambridge as the ultimate destination - it's on the ECML for both suburban and inter-city services, there are links to most of East Anglia, Lincs and the East Mids.

 

[Nym]

Including links to Cambridge...

 

[SwindonPkwy]

As for the service to Bristol are there any spare paths between Bristol & Swindon for a hourly Bristol - Milton Keynes/Bedford service.

I know there was a suggestion of 4 tracking the route between Swindon & Didcot although perhaps extending this where possible to the junction where the line to Bath & Bristol TM branches off from the line to Bristol Parkway?

Music to my ears. Inclusion in CP5, or am I just dreaming?

 

[The Planner]

What will happen to the surviving platforms at Claydon, Verney Junction & Swanbourne? Is there still a plan for a station at Newton Longville?

You'll have couple of years I expect to photograph them if you want, but I've no doubt they will get obliterated.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Music to my ears. Inclusion in CP5, or am I just dreaming?

I can't see that happening to be fair, how far are the loops at Challow from Swindon ?? 9 miles ??

 

[tbtc]

A far better idea, which would need minimal infrastructure work, would be to send them north from Bedford to Corby and then with a curve at Manton on to Stamford and Peterborough

That would allow the EMT 222s to be used on something more useful, like additional London - Leicester trains (saving longer distance trains from needing to stop at Market Harborough). Gets my vote.

 

[Philip Elliott]

A far better idea, which would need minimal infrastructure work, would be to send them north from Bedford to Corby and then with a curve at Manton on to Stamford and Peterborough

Or re-open Bedford - Hitchin....

Corby should be served by a Northampton - Wellingborough - Kettering - Corby - Peterborough service

 

[MK Tom]

Corby should be served by a Northampton - Wellingborough - Kettering - Corby - Peterborough service

They could call it the X4.

I'd love to see Northampton-Wellingborough reopened but it's been built on in so many places. The reason the western section of EWR has got this far is because the formations are all still there. Any scheme involving building entirely new lines is going to have to have the best business case in the universe (I say this sort of treating HS2 as an exception).

 

[mr_jrt]

No chance of a Hitchin (or Stevenage) to Luton link - it's totally unnecessary and would be across Green Belt land which is undeveloped. Also the MML south of Bedford is full to capacity - there aren't any additional paths to force E-W services along.

A far better idea, which would need minimal infrastructure work, would be to send them north from Bedford to Corby and then with a curve at Manton on to Stamford and Peterborough.

Peterborough makes FAR more sense than Cambridge as the ultimate destination - it's on the ECML for both suburban and inter-city services, there are links to most of East Anglia, Lincs and the East Mids.

I'm not advocating EWR goes via Luton - far from it, I think the idea is madness for precisely the reasons you suggest.

The problem with all the schemes is that they don't serve Bedford Midland properly for interchanges, or the only option that does (running to Peterborough), goes so far around the houses so as to be unviable.

I propose heading through Bedford Midland, swinging east around the northern edge of Bedford and heading for St. Neots. It's halfway between Stevenage and Peterborough, and a reasonably-size population centre in it's own right, and has open land alongside the railway - perfect for the ECML interchange. From there head east as more new build via Cambourne to Histon and then down the former St. Ives branch (the MGB can use the roads - that's it's primary benefit, right?).

...I do think there is a good case for Luton to Hitchin though - but ideally as a line from Dunstable. It would be able to serve Luton Airport directly, enabling you to close the parkway (speeding up MML services). You're not even forcing passengers to make an extra change - they already have to change to the bus at the parkway anyway, but it enables a proper rail link. Rather than restore to Leighton Buzzard though I'd send it down to meet the WCML at Cheddington and use the old route to get to Aylesbury. You could then conceivably get down to Princes Risborough from there, and a reopened link to Bourne End gets you to the GWML....and a few more changes might make reaching Reading viable, giving you some kind of strange loop service between Reading and Cambridge.

All rather fanciful, but it'd be one hell of a handy network.

 

[Buttsy]

A far better idea, which would need minimal infrastructure work, would be to send them north from Bedford to Corby and then with a curve at Manton on to Stamford and Peterborough.

Peterborough makes FAR more sense than Cambridge as the ultimate destination - it's on the ECML for both suburban and inter-city services, there are links to most of East Anglia, Lincs and the East Mids.

That has been looked at by E-W and discounted for time among other considerations. The plan is to create a new link between Bedford and the ECML, whether it be to Sandy, Hitchin or Stevenage as this shows greater CBA than Manton.

 

[Philip Elliott]

I'd love to see Northampton-Wellingborough reopened but it's been built on in so many places.

There aren't any actual buildings on it apart from the chord to Midland station, it is just the number of lakes! If the X4 is anything like the X5 then it will be horrendously expensive. Does it go to the station in Northampton? No good for Wellingborough to Birmingham traffic if it doesn't. The X5 helpfully only stops at Tesco in Buckingham and not in the town itself:roll:

 

[cle]

That has been looked at by E-W and discounted for time among other considerations. The plan is to create a new link between Bedford and the ECML, whether it be to Sandy, Hitchin or Stevenage as this shows greater CBA than Manton.

That is all based on their glamorous but not that useful aim of linking Oxford with Cambridge. I think linking Peterborough would be more useful and create a lot more opportunities.

Not only by connecting with the ECML, but other lines. There would be huge freight potential (and the line through Stamford sees hardly any passenger traffic now) so might be a good second option for Nuneaton trains.

Peterborough already has good connections to Cambridge, and no doubt trains could continue here and to Stansted if demand was there.

This rather nostalgic, Victorian notion of academics shuttling to and from Oxford and Cambridge in their robes in reality probably wouldn't fill a 153 on its own.