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East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

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richieb1971

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I assume so. Although there are not plans for such a service.

I agree that doubling up a service to MKC from Bedford seems a bit pointless since a platform change and a class 350 will take you there rather quickly. But it doesn't explain why its so high profile to put a unit from the west in that direction either considering the same argument can be made.
 
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I think that might be Aylesbury Vale Parkway, which remains a single through track in the present plans, but had previously been intended to be doubled. I’ve been following this for a while and don’t recall it ever being officially proposed for Bletchley.
Correct - twin track through Bletchley with double platforms. Passive provision for eastern entrance only at this point.
 

hooverboy

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Correct - twin track through Bletchley with double platforms. Passive provision for eastern entrance only at this point.
thanks for the heads-up. it just confirms that the bean counters are totally in charge, and the salesmen are just that.Salesmen.
What is needed is Visionaries and engineers. not sales people an accountants.
(ps don't get me wrong, sales does have a place, selling a product which actually works)
..and yes sales people can sell all sorts of unimportant garbage like selfie sticks.No limit to what a bit of pretty glitter and a celebrity endorsement can do to pile up the peer pressure and get the weak minded to take their rightful place in the herd.

just part of the job description that's all.

ps the countries with the highest trade surplusses all have engineers and phd physicists in charge, not lawyers/bankers/estate agents.
 

DarloRich

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Interesting to see some de vegitation work going on in the area around the flyover access ramps at Bletchley. I assume that is to assess the condition of the supporting strucutres.

ps the countries with the highest trade surplusses all have engineers and phd physicists in charge, not lawyers/bankers/estate agents.

Is that right? Could you offer some examples to support your statement? Germany? China? Japan? Netherlands? South Korea? Switzerland?

What is needed is Visionaries and engineers. not sales people an accountants.

What we need is people who can deliver to the available budget and the agreed scope not the kind of people who inhabit this board who live in a fantasy world and constantly overlook the main limiting factor to their fantasies: Cash and the lack of it
 
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geoffk

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Brunel was certainly a visionary but some of his projects were considerably over budget. And of course the atmospheric system used in South Devon was let down by the materials available then.
 

richieb1971

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What we need is people who can deliver to the available budget and the agreed scope

This is very hard when the UK exists in a bubble of its own skyrocketing prices to some of the most expensive in the world. Considering NR is government owned you would think only the materials need purchasing since NR staff are on the books already. But of course we need 3rd parties involved and then there is the bureaucracy.

I think the system is rotten to the core, because if COST and SCOPE cannot be controlled it stands to reason that it will always cost more and the scope will always be subject to change. We should have a system where "on time and budget" is has priority and "scope" is is non negotiable.
 

DarloRich

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This is very hard when the UK exists in a bubble of its own skyrocketing prices to some of the most expensive in the world.

That is simply wrong as you have been told many, many times.

Considering NR is government owned you would think only the materials need purchasing since NR staff are on the books already. But of course we need 3rd parties involved and then there is the bureaucracy.

but this line is the responsibility of a separate government controlled company: East West Railway Company Network Rail will simply be a third party supplier. You will, of course, support this structure because the government think this will enable faster and cheaper project delivery

(The East West Railway Company is a non-departmental public arm’s length body set up by the government to accelerate the East West Rail project)

I think the system is rotten to the core, because if COST and SCOPE cannot be controlled it stands to reason that it will always cost more and the scope will always be subject to change.

but project scope and cost is always subject to change, it is how you control that change that is important.
 

richieb1971

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EWR company may well have a board of decision makers, but surely thats all it is? Its just taking credit for other peoples work from what I can see. I suppose if they decide to get NR involved they can slot in and deliver, rather than waiting for NR to do it all whilst NR having a priority list of their own.

We have had 3 prime ministers since the last general election now, which isn't helping. Boris might put this on hold along with HS2 in favor of northern projects. You just never know. Its a turbulent time.

Do you think Grayling will hold his position under Boris?
 

kevin_roche

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We have had 3 prime ministers since the last general election now

IIRC Theresa May almost won the last last general election and I don't remember any other Prime Ministers since then. Though we may have another one in a few minutes time.
 

richieb1971

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IIRC Theresa May almost won the last last general election and I don't remember any other Prime Ministers since then. Though we may have another one in a few minutes time.

Yeah ok, so its been 3 prime ministers since the Conservatives have been in power then. I keep forgetting the last GE because Prime minister May stayed in power and from the perspective of railways nothing much changed.
 

swt_passenger

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EWR company may well have a board of decision makers, but surely thats all it is? Its just taking credit for other peoples work from what I can see. I suppose if they decide to get NR involved they can slot in and deliver, rather than waiting for NR to do it all whilst NR having a priority list of their own...
The bit that is underway is the responsibility of:
“East West Rail Alliance
The East West Rail Alliance was procured by Network Rail to design and deliver East West Rail Phase 2 between Bicester and Bedford, and is made up of Network Rail, Atkins, Laing O’Rourke and Volker Rail.”
https://eastwestrail.co.uk/about-us

Looks as if Network Rail are already very much involved? And the other three members are three of the normal Network Rail contractors, namely signalling, civils and track?

Doesn’t seem that revolutionary.
 
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nuneatonmark

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EWR company may well have a board of decision makers, but surely thats all it is? Its just taking credit for other peoples work from what I can see. I suppose if they decide to get NR involved they can slot in and deliver, rather than waiting for NR to do it all whilst NR having a priority list of their own.

We have had 3 prime ministers since the last general election now, which isn't helping. Boris might put this on hold along with HS2 in favor of northern projects. You just never know. Its a turbulent time.

Do you think Grayling will hold his position under Boris?

I wish they'd just bloody well get on with it! The next phase is hardly the most difficult restoration of a mothballed/recently disused line, is it?
 

richieb1971

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I wish they'd just bloody well get on with it! The next phase is hardly the most difficult restoration of a mothballed/recently disused line, is it?

Yes, I said this maybe 3 years ago. It's taking it's time but I believe it will be delivered. 2023 is the proposed delivery date so it's no point trying to rush something that still has 4 years on the clock.
 

The Planner

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I wish they'd just bloody well get on with it! The next phase is hardly the most difficult restoration of a mothballed/recently disused line, is it?
Claydon to Bletchley last saw a train 25 or more years ago, Bicester to Claydon was a single low speed line with little signalling, wooden sleepers etc... clearly it is quick and easy to upgrade this to a twin track high speed railway with modern signalling, but you knew that anyway.
 

DarloRich

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I wish they'd just bloody well get on with it! The next phase is hardly the most difficult restoration of a mothballed/recently disused line, is it?

Yes, I said this maybe 3 years ago. It's taking it's time but I believe it will be delivered. 2023 is the proposed delivery date so it's no point trying to rush something that still has 4 years on the clock.

Oh dear. Have you assessed the condition of the formation? Thought not.

Try not to consider this a reopening. It is a reconstruction and a massive upgrade to modern standards. The fact there was once a railway there simply means you have a route to follow!
 

swt_passenger

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I've seen a train on the flyover and I've not lived in MK anywhere near 25 years, though I don't know how far down it got.
If it’s as far as the cab ride videos on YouTube, I think trains only got as far as a crossover just past the flyover.
 

richieb1971

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Test trains analyzing the track which is owned and maintained by NR. Sometimes a charter will take passengers over it but it seldom happens.
 

DarloRich

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Test trains analyzing the track which is owned and maintained by NR. Sometimes a charter will take passengers over it but it seldom happens.

Until the track was lifted trains could get as far as swan swanbourne siding. Not far from the end of the flyover.

Large parts of the route after that are missing and several of the earth works are dubious!
 
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I wish they'd just bloody well get on with it! The next phase is hardly the most difficult restoration of a mothballed/recently disused line, is it?
  • Track - ancient/non-compliant where it exists and doesn't exist for many miles.
  • Formation - contaminated, structurally unsound and in need of complete replacement.
  • Bridges - under strength, no walkways, poor general condition. Notably Bletchley Flyover, which requires a substantial amount of works undertaking to make it serviceable.
  • Level crossings - have to be removed and new bridges/embankments/roads built to achieve ORR approval (who won't allow level crossings to be brought back in to service)
  • Drainage - non existent at present
  • Embankments/cuttings - insufficiently wide and in need of stabilisation in places
  • Stations - non existent at present
  • Signalling system - non existent at present
  • Lineside power system - non existent at present
  • Comms system - non existent at present
  • Powers - where the project necessarily steps outside the existing Network Rail land ownership, it currently has no powers/rights to acquire land and implement works.
  • Approvals - new highways, public rights of way, watercourse works, forna translocation, flora removal all require approval from highway authorities, planning authorities, Natural England, Internal Drainage Board etc.
This doesn't include all the internal review/approvals required with the Department for Transport, Office for Road & Rail, Train Operators, Freight Operators, Network Rail asset managers/operations managers etc.
 

DarloRich

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  • Track - ancient/non-compliant where it exists and doesn't exist for many miles.
  • Formation - contaminated, structurally unsound and in need of complete replacement.
  • Bridges - under strength, no walkways, poor general condition. Notably Bletchley Flyover, which requires a substantial amount of works undertaking to make it serviceable.
  • Level crossings - have to be removed and new bridges/embankments/roads built to achieve ORR approval (who won't allow level crossings to be brought back in to service)
  • Drainage - non existent at present
  • Embankments/cuttings - insufficiently wide and in need of stabilisation in places
  • Stations - non existent at present
  • Signalling system - non existent at present
  • Lineside power system - non existent at present
  • Comms system - non existent at present
  • Powers - where the project necessarily steps outside the existing Network Rail land ownership, it currently has no powers/rights to acquire land and implement works.
  • Approvals - new highways, public rights of way, watercourse works, forna translocation, flora removal all require approval from highway authorities, planning authorities, Natural England, Internal Drainage Board etc.
This doesn't include all the internal review/approvals required with the Department for Transport, Office for Road & Rail, Train Operators, Freight Operators, Network Rail asset managers/operations managers etc.

A very sensible post but one that will be wasted. The experts have decided the line should be open therefore it should be open.
 

richieb1971

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The way I read it, nuneatonmark just wants to see progress. Something I mentioned on a few years ago. But lets be fair, as posted by the sensible "work-traveller" most of the measures he put are NON EXISTENT which just adds fuel to nuneatonmark's comments.

A school kid can't say after 2 years of school that he is still working on home work of the first day of school, the teacher expects results the next day.
A store manager will not wait 2 years to see stocks on shelves
My job relies on results being given in real time. In some instances I get in trouble for doing something 30 minutes late.

Yet in the construction area of business everything takes time. And for some folks its a hard adjustment to make.

Lets put it this way, the internet is world wide. We DO see progress in other countries at a much faster rate than we see in the UK. We do see technological leaps of machinery that can put a bridge in place in 24 hours. We see trains that can self replace railway on the fly. Yet we don't see it in the UK. Another thing that baffles me is why all the aforementioned measures cannot be tackled at the same time. Why can't 2 or 3 level crossings be fixed now? Why can't some of the mothballed section be relaid now?

I am not not an expert, I have my curiosities and this is a forum. A forum is where you go to find out answers and whilst the answers often come they come with a tint of justification of what is happening in the real world. Without actually telling us what the workman are doing now, without telling us what all these people in the project are getting paid for now! For example, the project lead of EWR, what is he doing right now? He is obviously getting paid hansom amounts of money, but to me it just seems like people sitting idle.

The MML project was one where I didn't see progress with my own eyes for the best part of 3 years, but its here now and I can see it. Thats why I post pictures of it so I can convince myself in the middle of the night that I'm not dreaming. What I will say to Nuneatonmark is this, it will come. Just be patient.
 

DarloRich

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The way I read it, nuneatonmark just wants to see progress. Something I mentioned on a few years ago. But lets be fair, as posted by the sensible "work-traveller" most of the measures he put are NON EXISTENT which just adds fuel to nuneatonmark's comments.

A school kid can't say after 2 years of school that he is still working on home work of the first day of school, the teacher expects results the next day.
A store manager will not wait 2 years to see stocks on shelves
My job relies on results being given in real time. In some instances I get in trouble for doing something 30 minutes late.

Yet in the construction area of business everything takes time. And for some folks its a hard adjustment to make.

Lets put it this way, the internet is world wide. We DO see progress in other countries at a much faster rate than we see in the UK. We do see technological leaps of machinery that can put a bridge in place in 24 hours. We see trains that can self replace railway on the fly. Yet we don't see it in the UK. Another thing that baffles me is why all the aforementioned measures cannot be tackled at the same time. Why can't 2 or 3 level crossings be fixed now? Why can't some of the mothballed section be relaid now?

I am not not an expert, I have my curiosities and this is a forum. A forum is where you go to find out answers and whilst the answers often come they come with a tint of justification of what is happening in the real world. Without actually telling us what the workman are doing now, without telling us what all these people in the project are getting paid for now! For example, the project lead of EWR, what is he doing right now? He is obviously getting paid hansom amounts of money, but to me it just seems like people sitting idle.

The MML project was one where I didn't see progress with my own eyes for the best part of 3 years, but its here now and I can see it. Thats why I post pictures of it so I can convince myself in the middle of the night that I'm not dreaming. What I will say to Nuneatonmark is this, it will come. Just be patient.

i give up. It simply inst worth trying to explain things here. You try to educate and all you get is the same brainless nonsense back. I cant be bothered any longer. You have no idea how a complex engineering and construction project happens and frankly you don't want to know.

What you want to hear is this: The people doing the work are lazy and are taking the Pi$$, sitting around reading the paper all day, pocketing loads of cash and working out how to get their next back handers and are purposely slowing things down so that they can have nice cars and holidays. If only someone like you was in charge things would be better and you would have delivered everything by now.
 
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richieb1971

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Well at least some of us are in high spirits there Darlorich. Its rather hot today I don't want you to blow a gasket.
 

Pshambro

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i give up. It simply inst worth trying to explain things here. You try to educate and all you get is the same brainless nonsense back. I cant be bothered any longer. You have no idea how a complex engineering and construction project happens and frankly you don't want to know.

What you want to hear is this: The people doing the work are lazy and are taking the Pi$$, sitting around reading the paper all day, pocketing loads of cash and working out how to get their next back handers and are purposely slowing things down so that they can have nice cars and holidays. If only someone like you was in charge things would be better and you would have delivered everything by now.
I’m with you darlorich. I read this site because I want to understand the engineering and operational complexities of the railway. I often feel I’m in the minority compared to the people who you describe above. The crossrail thread is another example where we have very little technical information of the progress and challenges but plenty of discussion around former executives bonuses and the politics of the various organisations involved. Presumably those in the know have given up trying to explain to us.
 
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