East-West Rail (EWR): Consultation updates [not speculation]

[Railwaysceptic]

I think there would be a real benefit in an "MK Metro" type service (no, not a Julian Peddle bus service) if space could be found for one, with MK growing more and more. The demand from the Marston Vale is to go to MK. Until it does it will continue to be a basket case, and I'd expect to see the local stations closed or Parly-ised (school trains and one at lunchtime, maybe) when EWR comes unless they do.

At present, by changing at Bletchley, you already can travel from Marston Vale stations to Milton Keynes. As the East-West project plans at least 1 TPH from the Bletchley Flyover to Milton Keynes and probably two, crowding an already busy route, it's likely that Marston Vale passengers will get the short straw.

 

[swt_passenger]

At present, by changing at Bletchley, you already can travel from Marston Vale stations to Milton Keynes. As the East-West project plans at least 1 TPH from the Bletchley Flyover to Milton Keynes and probably two, crowding an already busy route, it's likely that Marston Vale passengers will get the short straw.

It is also the case that there have been a number of EWR business case reports available online, (and they've previously been discussed here), stating fairly categorically that Bedford to Milton Keynes services will not be provided by this project, with their reasoning given.

 

[DarloRich]

I agree absolutely that Oxford and Aylesbury to Bletchley and Bedford should be completed before we start worrying about building a new line to Cambridge.

However I think you're going to be disappointed about Fenny Stratford to Milton Keynes. None of the mooted diagrams - and there have been so many over the past few years - has suggested that. The current thinking is that the Bletchley Flyover will be re-built with high-level platforms, and that trains from Bedford via Fenny Stratford will go over the flyover to either Aylesbury or Oxford. The one concept that seems to be "firming up" is Oxford to Milton Keynes.

I know we aren't getting direct trains. It seems an oversight considering the main economic centre regionally is MK and that part of the benefit of the line is to increase house building along the Vale. More traffic for the A421 it is then.

It sounds as though you need a good bus service from Bedford to Hitchin Station. Is there one?

the existent X5 is perfectly good. It has a short walk to both Bedford & St Neots stations. I use it on an regular if irregular basis! it is slow mainly because of the routing and available roads.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At present, by changing at Bletchley, you already can travel from Marston Vale stations to Milton Keynes.

Or you can drive.

To be taken seriously as a local service for anyone other than a railway enthusiast, a through service to MKC is necessary.

 

[DarloRich]

fenny stratford would close for sure, but you would get a nice new station for milton keynes stadium right by the tescos.

it would not be difficult to do compulsary purchase on that land.most of it is dereclict industrial estate..about 15% capacity is actually in use...so would not be a problem to give companies in residence a little incentive to relocate a couple of hundred metres and it would tidy the whole area up a lot.

on an embankment, above a dual carriage way with lines at different levels, with a junction within the boundary, with houses on one side and shops and industry on the other. Where, exactly, do you suggest this new station might be built? Where is this "derelict industrial estate " that you speak of?

 

[DarloRich]

Or you can drive.

To be taken seriously as a local service for anyone other than a railway enthusiast, a through service to MKC is necessary.

Which is what most do. However numbers on the Vale have gone up a great deal in recent years, despite the poor service and the poor connections and the interminable wait at Bletchley.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People don't mind walking to the stadium from the existing Bletchley station (enough do it), and I think Bill's do a bus shuttle to CMK.

The rest of the development there is a classic US style strip mall intended to visit by car, and not likely to be visited from those outside MK. Everything it offers other than the Primark is available elsewhere in MK e.g. the Hub and Xscape accessible from MKC, while if you're going to Primark from the Marston Vale you can just go to Bedford.

 

[DarloRich]

Fenny offers football patrons a wider selection of pubs

 

[Gagravarr]

It sounds as though you need a good bus service from Bedford to Hitchin Station. Is there one?

It takes just over an hour from the centre of Hitchin to Bedford on the bus. Add on another 10-15 minutes from Hitchin station to Bancroft where the Bedford bus goes from, either walking or taking one of the Stevenage/Letchworth buses from nearby Hermitage Road to/from the station. No wifi nor power sockets

Were cost no object, you'd almost be better off taking the train from Bedford to either Luton or Luton Parkway, walking a couple of minutes, then taking the 100 or 101 bus to Hitchin. The 100/101 normally has wifi and power sockets, nicer seats, more comfortable drive etc. Interestingly, a Luton Plusbus gets you from Luton/Parkway out to the Butterfield Business Park, which is just inside the Hitchin Plusbus zone, so you could do it all with train tickets and add-ons

(The 101 is a bit quicker Luton-Hitchin, but if you've just missed one it's normally better to carry onto Luton Parkway and get the next 100 from outside which goes via the airport so a longer route)

 

[gordonthemoron]

Fenny offers football patrons a wider selection of pubs

Bletchley town centre is a disaster area for pubs, although there will shortly be a Wetherspoons. The reopened Chequers in Fenny is very nice

 

[hooverboy]

It sounds as though you need a good bus service from Bedford to Hitchin Station. Is there one?

in a word,no.
you can do bedford-luton by train,and then have a choice of two buses/coaches from luton to hitchin,neither of which will stop at the station, so you have to change in hitchin town centre and get the bus to baldock.
the local bus from luton-hitchin is 1 hour, or the national express is still 1 hour,taking the scenic route via luton airport and then hatfield,then up the A1M.

 

[hooverboy]

on an embankment, above a dual carriage way with lines at different levels, with a junction within the boundary, with houses on one side and shops and industry on the other. Where, exactly, do you suggest this new station might be built? Where is this "derelict industrial estate " that you speak of?

off of bletcham way industrial estate, by first avenue/third avenue.do google streetview to see what I mean.
there are some sidings that are hardly used,and the rest of the estate is boarded up mostly.

 

[D365]

the A428 is a bit of a lottery as there's a bit of single carriageway road where you'll always get stuck behind a lorry doing 40mph the whole way...and it's chaos at rush hour.

That's not even the worst bit - try the A421 single carriageway, north of M1 J13. The lack of a second is absolutely bonkers.

Speaking of which the M1 J13-14 bypass seriously needs 'smarting up' as well.

it is slow mainly because of the routing and available roads.

You can say that again.

Or you can drive.

Yep. I sure prefer driving to a simple change at Sandy...

 

[deltic08]

It takes just over an hour from the centre of Hitchin to Bedford on the bus. Add on another 10-15 minutes from Hitchin station to Bancroft where the Bedford bus goes from, either walking or taking one of the Stevenage/Letchworth buses from nearby Hermitage Road to/from the station. No wifi nor power sockets

Were cost no object, you'd almost be better off taking the train from Bedford to either Luton or Luton Parkway, walking a couple of minutes, then taking the 100 or 101 bus to Hitchin. The 100/101 normally has wifi and power sockets, nicer seats, more comfortable drive etc. Interestingly, a Luton Plusbus gets you from Luton/Parkway out to the Butterfield Business Park, which is just inside the Hitchin Plusbus zone, so you could do it all with train tickets and add-ons

(The 101 is a bit quicker Luton-Hitchin, but if you've just missed one it's normally better to carry onto Luton Parkway and get the next 100 from outside which goes via the airport so a longer route)

Simple and attractive then for visitors who want to travel from Bedford to Hitchin by public transport and leave the car at home!!
Only one solution. Reinstate the railway line. Journey time 30 minutes if electrified.

 

[DarloRich]

off of bletcham way industrial estate, by first avenue/third avenue.do google streetview to see what I mean.
there are some sidings that are hardly used,and the rest of the estate is boarded up mostly.

I know the area without looking on street view thanks. So you are suggesting building a new station, half and inch from Bletchley, which can only serve the existing line ( and not the new one) further away from an existing village for what particular reason? What benefit would you get from this superb plan?

Those units aren't derelict btw: several have been replaced by new units and when I was down there on Sunday the IKEA warehouse seemed to be doing a decent trade. I doubt Marshall Amps would be keen to see their premises knocked down.

I will also point out that the only crossings of the railway line from the exiting housing is via the Watling Street bridge at Fenny Stratford station or by Saxon Street which is a lovely dual carriage way race track, substantially lower than either railway line and not convenient for the housing at that end of Beltchley/Fenny. The "V" of Saxon street and the WCML forms a barrier between the people who would want to use the station and the proposed station site itself and vehicular access would be terrible. You also seem to have no idea about the topography in the area. It isnt like the embankment for the Oxford line is in the way or anything.

The current station is right in the middle of the village and offers no opportunity for development for other uses so closing it seems pointless.

Put the crayons away. Please.

 

[DarloRich]

Bletchley town centre is a disaster area for pubs, although there will shortly be a Wetherspoons. The reopened Chequers in Fenny is very nice

The Chequers is indeed most nice. And but moments from my house ( Red Lion is also nice in the summer - avoid the Chavsters and the Bull)

 

[A0wen]

Simple and attractive then for visitors who want to travel from Bedford to Hitchin by public transport and leave the car at home!!
Only one solution. Reinstate the railway line. Journey time 30 minutes if electrified.

Considered as one of the options for EWR between Bedford and Cambridge - and I believe rejected.

There's not enough demand for reinstatement of that route - add in that the route itself isn't clear. It's been built on coming out of Bedford and through Shefford. The alignment also ran through RAF Henlow and the alignment has been built on at Henlow. Where it joined the ECML is now where the Cambridge fly-over is and last but not least, platform capacity at Hitchin doesn't exist to allow for a terminating service through the day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree, putting a station 2 minutes from Bletchley itself on those sidings, with a grim unsafe-feeling walk through an industrial estate (which, by the way, is not derelict nor anywhere near it) to reach the stadium off an infrequent service, will not bring in any significant demand.

If you were going to build any new local stations on the Marston Vale (and we really are getting into crayons here) the only sensible one I can think of would be "Browns Wood and Old Farm Park" by the footpath pretty much due south of the Browns Wood/Old Farm Park roundabout - but again only if it could have a service to MKC.

I'd also rename Bow Brickill to "Milton Keynes Tilbrook for Caldecotte" (with the MK in a DB style subscript) to sell where it actually serves (it's nowhere near Bow Brickhill) - there is a fair potential for commuter traffic to the industrial estate if done right.

If, and we are *really* getting into crayons here, you wanted to serve the Stadium estate with any effectiveness, a station on the south WCML slows at "Denbigh West for Granby" would work better - but the formation wouldn't have room for it and paths would be a problem. And walking through Granby is barely less grim than walking through Denbigh North industry (which is what it's really called). But it'd be fairly pointless due to where the demand actually comes from.

 

[A0wen]

I agree, putting a station 2 minutes from Bletchley itself on those sidings, with a grim unsafe-feeling walk through an industrial estate (which, by the way, is not derelict nor anywhere near it) to reach the stadium off an infrequent service, will not bring in any significant demand.

If you were going to build any new local stations on the Marston Vale (and we really are getting into crayons here) the only sensible one I can think of would be "Browns Wood and Old Farm Park" by the footpath pretty much due south of the Browns Wood/Old Farm Park roundabout - but again only if it could have a service to MKC.

I'd also rename Bow Brickill to "Milton Keynes Tilbrook for Caldecotte" (with the MK in a DB style subscript) to sell where it actually serves (it's nowhere near Bow Brickhill) - there is a fair potential for commuter traffic to the industrial estate if done right.

You can put the crayons away about Bow Brickhill as well.

As somebody who actually works on that industrial estate, even if it had a 10 minute service to MKC it would not change people's travel habits.

The reason being where people are travelling to the estate from - most of them are from the other estates around MK - so there's nothing to gain from a direct train service to MKC.

The rest are coming from the various local towns - to take my example Northampton. Except I live about as far from Northampton station as it is possible to be - so there's no chance of persuading me that spending at least 20 mins getting to Northampton station, spending £ 10 a day to park there, waiting around for a train which will take 35 mins to get to Bow Brickhill with a 5 minute walk on the other end when my average commute is 45 minutes.

 

[A0wen]

Going back to EWR - it would seem Northampton Borough Council are trying to get the future Marylebone - MKC service extended to Northampton.

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/n...th-west-london-says-borough-council-1-8256107

Frankly - this is pretty pointless exercise for a couple of reasons.

1) there are already limited paths between NMP and MKC.
2) the supposed "additional" connectivity to West London is a red herring. There's no way an NMP - Marylebone service is going to be time competitive - the current Aylesbury Vale Parkway - Marylebone service takes 1h 10m. That's going to become a 90 minute service as Milton Keynes - Marylebone. And Northampton's + 20 mins beyond MKC.

Whereas you can get from Northampton - Euston in 1 hour and Euston - Baker Street or Paddington in 20 mins using the Met.

They'd be far better off arguing for a reinstatement of the link onto the WLL which used to exist in the days of the Connex Rugby - Gatwick service as that would provide a genuine journey improvement to west and south-west London and potentially points further on.

 

[DarloRich]

You can put the crayons away about Bow Brickhill as well.

As somebody who actually works on that industrial estate, even if it had a 10 minute service to MKC it would not change people's travel habits.

The reason being where people are travelling to the estate from - most of them are from the other estates around MK - so there's nothing to gain from a direct train service to MKC.

The rest are coming from the various local towns - to take my example Northampton. Except I live about as far from Northampton station as it is possible to be - so there's no chance of persuading me that spending at least 20 mins getting to Northampton station, spending £ 10 a day to park there, waiting around for a train which will take 35 mins to get to Bow Brickhill with a 5 minute walk on the other end when my average commute is 45 minutes.

But the main economic centre is MK and it pulls in people from around the villages and from Bedford. The little train is now very busy in the morning with standing room only. Increasing numbers are going through to MK and certainly more than me and a couple of mates it was when I first moved down here. The users group research shows the main off putting factor is the lack of a direct service to MK and they are pushing for it, as are local LM managers. The big limiting factors today are the speed of the journey, the poor connections and the wait at Bletchely. All of these could be fixed via E-W and a direct service. With all the new housing planned for the Vale ( look at the Stewartby plans btw) a decent train service would tempt people off the A421. My view, for what it is worth, is that it is a mistake for E-W not to support direct local services from the Vale to MK but I understand why their focus is elsewhere. I think they miss a developmental opportunity.

BTW - Bow Brickhill is actually quite busy these days with the likes of Red Bull just next door. There are good numbers getting off the early trains and onto the evening trains.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The direct services can be done now - there is room for it in the timetable (they would reverse in Bletchley P5, though that admittedly would render P6 pointless, which would be no bad thing given the lack of a lift), and P2a at MKC was built partly for that idea in the short term.

Is WCML slow line paths for a 60/75mph DMU the reason? Or are they scared of it actually being popular?

 

[II]

Going back to EWR - it would seem Northampton Borough Council are trying to get the future Marylebone - MKC service extended to Northampton.

http://www.northamptonchron.co.uk/n...th-west-london-says-borough-council-1-8256107

Frankly - this is pretty pointless exercise for a couple of reasons.

1) there are already limited paths between NMP and MKC.
2) the supposed "additional" connectivity to West London is a red herring. There's no way an NMP - Marylebone service is going to be time competitive - the current Aylesbury Vale Parkway - Marylebone service takes 1h 10m. That's going to become a 90 minute service as Milton Keynes - Marylebone. And Northampton's + 20 mins beyond MKC.

Whereas you can get from Northampton - Euston in 1 hour and Euston - Baker Street or Paddington in 20 mins using the Met.

They'd be far better off arguing for a reinstatement of the link onto the WLL which used to exist in the days of the Connex Rugby - Gatwick service as that would provide a genuine journey improvement to west and south-west London and potentially points further on.

Sounds a bit of a pointless exercise to me as well. If you're wanting to extend the service, then surely the Oxford/Reading/Didcot (wherever it ends us starting from) to MKC hourly service would be a better bet to run through to Northampton as that would give direct links to Bicester Village and Oxford and additional connecting options that would open up. Of course, Northampton to Oxford becomes much more viable anyway thanks to East-West Rail offering a regular service with just a change at MKC or Bletchley.

 

[A0wen]

The direct services can be done now - there is room for it in the timetable (they would reverse in Bletchley P5, though that admittedly would render P6 pointless, which would be no bad thing given the lack of a lift), and P2a at MKC was built partly for that idea in the short term.

Is WCML slow line paths for a 60/75mph DMU the reason? Or are they scared of it actually being popular?

I suspect a mix of paths, lack of stock and the fact it would need a complete timetable recast.

If you look at the 'down time' at Bletchley - it does vary, but averages around 20 mins. I don't know if there's a minimum 'reversal' time but assume that's + 3 mins - that's 6 minutes out of the 20. Call it 5 mins each way from BLY - MKC, there's another 10 mins. You're then down to a 4 min turnaround at MKC.

 

[A0wen]

Sounds a bit of a pointless exercise to me as well. If you're wanting to extend the service, then surely the Oxford/Reading/Didcot (wherever it ends us starting from) to MKC hourly service would be a better bet to run through to Northampton as that would give direct links to Bicester Village and Oxford and additional connecting options that would open up. Of course, Northampton to Oxford becomes much more viable anyway thanks to East-West Rail offering a regular service with just a change at MKC or Bletchley.

That sounds more sensible - though the demand for Northampton - Oxford is limited. The through bus / coach disappeared fairly recently, though it ran half-sensible times as once it was past Towcester, there were only a couple of villages and most of the running was on the dual-carriageway A43.

The link back onto the WLL would probably be the one which would offer the best improvement.

 

[DarloRich]

The direct services can be done now - there is room for it in the timetable (they would reverse in Bletchley P5, though that admittedly would render P6 pointless, which would be no bad thing given the lack of a lift), and P2a at MKC was built partly for that idea in the short term.

Is WCML slow line paths for a 60/75mph DMU the reason? Or are they scared of it actually being popular?

it is doabale if tight and with very little room for anything going wrong. Some tweaks would be needed to the times of the vale trains and it may not be possible for every train to run to MK but I suggest only peak hours services (0700/0800/0900 & 1600/1700/1800) would be enough. We would still need p6 for flexibility reasons but it really needs a lift.

I suspect the reasons for not doing it is the fear of either of the chug brothers failing just outside MK blocking the WCML for any length of time reading to an expensive bill! That and the impact of P5 at Beltchely being blocked for any length of time. It is an emergency passing place and the only southern facing access to the carriage sidings.

I suspect a mix of paths, lack of stock and the fact it would need a complete timetable recast.

If you look at the 'down time' at Bletchley - it does vary, but averages around 20 mins. I don't know if there's a minimum 'reversal' time but assume that's + 3 mins - that's 6 minutes out of the 20. Call it 5 mins each way from BLY - MKC, there's another 10 mins. You're then down to a 4 min turnaround at MKC.

it needs no extra stock and while timetable changes would be needed they are not insurmountable nor as wide ranging as suggested, especially if we look at peak time services only.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

Considered as one of the options for EWR between Bedford and Cambridge - and I believe rejected.

There's not enough demand for reinstatement of that route - add in that the route itself isn't clear. It's been built on coming out of Bedford and through Shefford. The alignment also ran through RAF Henlow and the alignment has been built on at Henlow. Where it joined the ECML is now where the Cambridge fly-over is and last but not least, platform capacity at Hitchin doesn't exist to allow for a terminating service through the day.

A great shame. I've always regretted that route was closed. In my youthful crayon days, I used to imagine an DMU shuttle service between Bedford and Hertford North!

 

[oversteer]

Funding confirmed in the Budget today, for the Bicester - Bletchley and MK - Princes Risborough ‘Western Phase Two’

Intention - it’s a long time away in politics! - for passenger services by 2023

 

[TheDavibob]

Funding confirmed in the Budget today, for the Bicester - Bletchley and MK - Princes Risborough ‘Western Phase Two’

Intention - it’s a long time away in politics! - for passenger services by 2023

Coupled with the optimistic hope for the central section [Bedford-Cambridge] to be done by the "mid-2020s". An extra £5 million for Cambridge South suggests it's most of the way to being funded, too, I think.

 

[Bald Rick]

Coupled with the optimistic hope for the central section [Bedford-Cambridge] to be done by the "mid-2020s". An extra £5 million for Cambridge South suggests it's most of the way to being funded, too, I think.

£5m is but a small dent in the cost of Cambridge South!